patrick.net

Ironman says

Well, it's definitely 13th grade, but considering how many (especially boys) fuck off the first year and get 1.0 GPA's, it's better to throw away a few grand in community college versus $20K at a state school (unless the parents like burning through that money and have nothing to show for for it)

I was an example of someone who fits that description roughly. I would have benefited from at least commuting from home if not going to community college.

There are a couple of fuck ups and some slackers but the vast majority are groomed successfully to be hard driving

I'm provably the only one who would even put the community college thing out there. Some of the skinflints also don't believe in breaking bank on education even though they probably have millions in liquid assets

But others, while still of flinty skin and high liquidity , will splurge on education and be careful on everything else

Out of all my relatives, I'm one of the few that ever had a student loan balance. I can also say that it wasn't worth it in my case

Ceffer says

Even many very smart people are incredibly fungible, it only the TRULY rare exceptional who are not.

That's why I say Med school and residency is overrated. I don't really brad about it because it isn't a bragging worthy subject. A lot of things and circumstances had to be ideal for me to get through medical school and into a residency.

I mean, sure it is hard work and a good amount of pressure

But I really don't see that many from a poor and disadvantaged background being able to do it anymore

Ceffer says

Getting into universities is a political act, not an act of merit. The merit is window dressing and an entirely relative, movable feast. Also, cheating is rampant. I knew a guy who bragged to me about getting into a Harvard professional school on forged transcripts. He continued on to practice just fine and dandy throughout his career.

My senior partner, who was dean's list at both, Columbia and Penn, got a 2:2, meaning lower half of second class honours, a.k.a a 'B' average, at the Univ of London's LLM program at UCL. In other words, the American Ivies were grade inflated but the equivalent Ivy-like postgraduate law school in Britain wasn't.

And you know what, perhaps that means that there's some merit left in the world, albeit, shrinking by the generation.

And BTW, this guy could punk either John Kerry or Al Gore. He's not a genius but he isn't a dumbass either.

MMR says

theoakman says

Consequently, I've watched them get slighted non-stop by admissions when they clearly outperform 99% of the people admitted to Ivy League universities.

The problem is lot of these guys look exactly the same on paper . Also they tend to write personal statements about the topic of growing up in two different cultures and the pressure that no one else can actually relate to....I'm sure admission committees get annoyed to read that drivel over and over again.

Getting into Ivy League, requires some imagination...rin idea about streaming broadcast is the type of ingenuity that will separate from other Asian or Eastern European kid.

Top state schools like University of California for example have slightly different criteria and missions; even UC has gotten away from original mission in the name of stuffing coffers

They don't though. I have pretty much taught at the two top public schools in New Jersey. My very best students have had legitimate claims to top student in the state...and in one instance the country. My very best asian students have had the most impressive resumes and were bigger standouts than anyone in several areas. Ivy League universities actively discriminate against them. Hell, they openly do it and still won in court when the asians tried to sue them. I can say this though, Carnegie Melon university were very smart and realized the talent pool within the town and has since accepted dozens of them. I always told them, it doesn't matter, because they are destined for success anyway. But it's really annoying to watch your best talent get slighted while someone who's ranked 200 in the class be the only one admitted into Columbia because she is 1/4 hispanic.

theoakman says

My very best students have had legitimate claims to top student in the state...and in one instance the country. My very best asian students have had the most impressive resumes and were bigger standouts than anyone in several areas. Ivy League universities actively discriminate against them.

If they were Asian, but had come from families who were partners at various sovereign funds from Singapore to Seoul, they'd be highly sought after by elite colleges for undergraduate studies.

When I was in graduate school in Chemistry, 50% of the students were from China/Korea. 20% were from various Eastern European countries. About 5% were hispanic, mostly from Puerto Rico. No one was from Africa. I did know one guy in Physics from Iran. The hysterics that limiting immigration hurts us is nonsense. A lot of the foreigners that come into our grad schools attend it on our own federal grants then go back to their native country. It's a net loss for the country.

Rin says

theoakman says

My very best students have had legitimate claims to top student in the state...and in one instance the country. My very best asian students have had the most impressive resumes and were bigger standouts than anyone in several areas. Ivy League universities actively discriminate against them.

If they were Asian, but had come from families who were partners at various sovereign funds from Singapore to Seoul, they'd be highly sought after by elite colleges for undergraduate studies.

The private school I live 3 blocks away from is Lawrenceville NJ costs 50k a year. 30% of their class goes to Princeton. None of them are all that smart. It's simply a test to see how much money their parents are willing to toss around.

BTW, I'd taken two courses at Harvard College during the day as a special student and got two A's, BFD.

Seriously, if everyone there was Issac Newton, I wouldn't have scored in the top sector of the classes w/o having studied nearly 7x24.

I'd have been fighting against ppl with photographic memories and 200 IQs, who probably didn't even need to attend college to begin with.

I have seen students stress about getting into Stanford. They have a dumasses Princeton-like private junior college for the wealthy in Menlo Park that guarantees admission into Stanford upper division.

One trust fund rich kid I knew in the day was admitted to Stanford legacy, played bridge and took bowling classes, was proud that he scraped by on gentleman "C". He went high up in the State Department. One of my fraternity bros, on merit and with extensive additional graduate studies with degrees from both Harvard, Stanford, and some international schools, went just slightly higher and became an ambassador (to a couple of countries, not just in title).

Ceffer says

One trust fund rich kid I knew in the day was admitted to Stanford legacy, played bridge and took bowling classes, was proud that he scraped by on gentleman "C". He went high up in the State Department. One of my fraternity bros, on merit and with extensive additional graduate studies with degrees from both Harvard, Stanford, and some international schools, went just slightly higher and became an ambassador (to a couple of countries, not just in title).

All true, except that it's a Gentleman's "B-" nowadays.

There's little true vis-a-vis merit at Ivy like schools in America.

At the University of London, a 70% on the final exam is an 'A' or a 'First'. My senior partner, never got a single one, during his studies abroad. He said that everyone there, esp the students from former Commonwealth nations like Hong Kong/Singapore, were always prepped ahead of time and were simply honing their skills in class. Over there, an 'A' was really an 'A'.

Despite having it relatively easy at Columbia/Penn, he simply didn't have that extra mojo which the other scholars at UoL had. I suppose he could have spent the time to develop those skills but cmon, the West End of London was simply too much fun.

MMR says

In my family, community college is scoffed at, as is the idea of a high school graduation party or congratulating your kid for finishing high school...although people are slowly lightening up on latter

Finishing high school is not considered an achievement by Asian families.

Dan8267 says

What do you expect when our government and corporations have been waging a War on STEM for the past 40 years through H1B Visas and outsourcing?

The way to get more Americans to enter STEM is to let STEM careers provide for both job security and high pay. Those two things are what determines whether or not people want to enter a field.

WTF. STEM is high paying with job security.
Todays kids don't want to do hard work, and complain a lot. They are not punished enough, and their parents don't push them hard enough.

Strategist says

WTF. STEM is high paying with job security.

Only for those of us who have already made it and didn't suffer any unlucky breaks. Sure, we're secure. The young professional starting out is fucked. He can't make a case for himself instead of some outsourced slave worker.

Strategist says

Todays kids don't want to do hard work, and complain a lot.

That is complete and utter bullshit. You are sounding like every grumpy old man ever, and you're wrong just like all the previous grumpy old men were.

I'm a Gen X'er. My entire generation was called slackers. Meanwhile, I paid my own way through college and worked 70-90 hours a week routinely when I was young.

The Baby Boomers were called lazy, entitled good-for-nothings by their parents. OK, bad example, but their parents were called the same by theirs.

This shit is real old, and it's always been wrong.

Every generation of old people has called the young people of the day lazy. It's never been true, and never will be.

The fact is that the Millennials worked damn hard getting college educations because the older generations said that if they didn't "they'd be flipping burgers", and then proceeded to flip burgers after going in debt $100k+ for a damn college degree. That's not the fault of the Millennials. It's your generation that fucked this up.

Millennials are at least as hard working as any other generation in history. It's just that in today's world, there's a hell of a lot more competition, and you don't get ahead by being a productive member of society. You get ahead by being lucky and/or sneaky in zero-sum games. And again, that's your generation's fault, not theirs.

www.youtube.com/embed/M4IjTUxZORE

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

WTF. STEM is high paying with job security.

Only for those of us who have already made it and didn't suffer any unlucky breaks.

You mean those who were good enough. Not everyone is top notch.

Dan8267 says

ha ha. Love it. So true. Every generation feels the next one is a loser.

theoakman says

Rin says

theoakman says

My very best students have had legitimate claims to top student in the state...and in one instance the country. My very best asian students have had the most impressive resumes and were bigger standouts than anyone in several areas. Ivy League universities actively discriminate against them.

If they were Asian, but had come from families who were partners at various sovereign funds from Singapore to Seoul, they'd be highly sought after by elite colleges for undergraduate studies.

The private school I live 3 blocks away from is Lawrenceville NJ costs 50k a year. 30% of their class goes to Princeton. None of them are all that smart. It's simply a test to see how much money their parents are willing to toss around.

Is that Hun school or Lawrenceville academy ?

Strategist says

You mean those who were good enough. Not everyone is top notch.

It is foolish to think that economic policies like outsourcing and H1B Visas have no effect on what careers young Americans pursue or the stability and prosperity of STEM careers. The entire purpose of outsourcing and H1B Visas is to diminish the value of STEM professionals. Of course it has a huge effect.

These two policies are responsible for the greatest brain drain in the history of the world. The brain drain from America and western Europe to Asia, specifically China and India. So you can kiss America superiority good-bye. What happen to manufacturing, now controlled by China, will happen to all STEM fields.

These policies sell out America for a fraction of its cost and it's the most unpatriotic thing a corporation can do.

The fact is it takes two entire generations to build a highly skilled workforce. Mentoring matters. Passing the torch to the next generation matters. Establishing a tradition of excellence in any field matters. These things are being undercut by short-term greed.

This shortsightedness won't affect me. I already made it. But the current and next two generations are completely fucked. And that should upset you if you want America to be the dominant power and culture in the world. Our political influence and our military might are entirely dependent on our technological and economic leadership, and our economy is highly dependent on our technological leadership.

Thirty years from now, if you are still alive Strategist, then you'll be bitching and moaning about the good old days (today) when America still had technological leadership. And you'll probably blame liberals for all the consequences of Reaganomics.

Rin says

theoakman says

My very best students have had legitimate claims to top student in the state...and in one instance the country. My very best asian students have had the most impressive resumes and were bigger standouts than anyone in several areas. Ivy League universities actively discriminate against them.

If they were Asian, but had come from families who were partners at various sovereign funds from Singapore to Seoul, they'd be highly sought after by elite colleges for undergraduate studies.

Exactly because those Asian candidates have something (the parents) known as influence....the opposite of a lot of the Asian candidates simply come from upper middle class professional or business families, which are less valuable to the Ivy League

theoakman says

My very best asian students have had the most impressive resumes and were bigger standouts than anyone in several area

So how did these Asian applicants resumes differ from one another? That would be the million dollar question. Also, how many of these bulletproof applications are coming from the exact school? Ivy League can't conceivably take them all...

Most of these applicants are awesome, but do they have that it factor that makes them too good to pass up...I believe the word fungible comes to mind here...these stellar candidates, for one reason are fungible when some Kennedy is too good to pass up.

I distinctly remember reading an article last year quoting some Princeton review people saying essentially that a lot of Asian applicants appear homogenous; In fact, I posted it here a few times as well

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-11-21/princeton-review-tells-asians-to-act-less-asian-and-black-students-to-attach-photos

I'm Indian and compared to such a batch of people even though my parents at one time (up until post undergrad) had little more money than the migrant farm workers daughter who is first in family to attend college, who is compared to an entirely different batch of people. My parents didn't have money for me to do manufactured experiences (community service in Guatemala) to boost my resume. But I was an Eagle Scout

With all due respect, I think the article correlates better with my personal experience than what you are reporting here

Strategist says

Finishing high school is not considered an achievement by Asian families.

Exactly, I had to fight tooth and nail because I felt embarrassed among my peers not to have one

Dan8267 says

It is foolish to think that economic policies like outsourcing and H1B Visas have no effect on what careers young Americans pursue or the stability and prosperity of STEM careers. The entire purpose of outsourcing and H1B Visas is to diminish the value of STEM professionals. Of course it has a huge effect.

It's the other way round. Not having enough people go into STEM is what created the need for H1B visas in the first place.

Dan8267 says

These two policies are responsible for the greatest brain drain in the history of the world. The brain drain from America and western Europe to Asia, specifically China and India. So you can kiss America superiority good-bye. What happen to manufacturing, now controlled by China, will happen to all STEM fields.

You don't know what a "brain drain" is. You should read up on it. It's India and China who have the brain drain when their skilled workers come to the West to work.
Bottom line......If we want to stay ahead, we either create our own skilled people, or we import them. It's as simple as that.

MMR says

Exactly because those Asian candidates have something (the parents) known as influence....the opposite of a lot of the Asian candidates simply come from upper middle class professional or business families, which are less valuable to the Ivy League

As for lack of influence, the Ivies would rather prefer that white kid, whose family members were coal miners in W Virginia, you know ... the one who'd started his town's first online newspaper, along with the 4.0 GPA/2400 (now, 1600 again SAT), over an Asian kid in the 'burbs of Boston to DC or SF to SD who appears to be some immigrant stereotype.

It works like this ... that WVa coal miner offspring, being white, will eventually be recruited by let's say McKinsey, leading to a partner track or some executive placement, but if not, he would move back to WVa and make a name for himself and thus, make it look like any small town kid can succeed as a result of a Harvard or Columbia education, whereas the Asian kid, if he/she doesn't attend medical school, will most likely, be a lowly-to-above average paid worker bee at XYZ corp in one of the major cities. This is how admissions committees think, once you remove the blinders of political correctness.

Asians are seen as nerds by default.

theoakman says

Ivy League universities actively discriminate against them.

Yes...it's called a quota and the quota system is particularly abused by Nigerians and Ghanaians and Jamaicans and Haitians claiming to be African American despite having no direct connection to slavery

There was one Ghanaian American kid who got accepted to all the ivies a few years ago..will NEVER happen to an Asian kid

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/30/us/new-york-student-selects-yale/

Rin says

the one who'd started his town's first online newspaper, along with the 4.0 GPA/2400 (now, 1600 again SAT), over an Asian kid in the 'burbs of Boston to DC or SF to SD who appears to be some immigrant stereotype.

The first is overcoming adversity and showing ingenuity while the latter is just careful grooming planned as soon as kid was popped out and even before

My parents are not so megalomaniacal but I know many who are, not unlike the majority of examples oakman has encountered in his academic teaching career

MMR says

There was one Ghanaian American kid who got accepted to all the ivies a few years ago..will NEVER happen to an Asian kid

I heard of an Indian girl who got accepted in every Ivy League she applied to. She went to Med school and did her MBA at the same time.

Strategist says

I heard of an Indian girl who got accepted in every Ivy League she applied to. She went to Med school and did her MBA at the same time.

1. What was she doing differently than other Asian and Indian candidates?

2. How come there is no article on this person in CNN?

Strategist says

It's the other way round. Not having enough people go into STEM is what created the need for H1B visas in the first place.

That's complete bullshit. Major companies like IBM spent three decades laying off American workers and hiring Indian and Chinese workers always begging for more H1B Visas and using outsourcing while slashing the jobs of Americans like crazy. I know a lot of former IBMers. A hell of a lot.

It was typical for an American STEM professional to train his replacement, often training oversea replacements.

If you actual think a shortage of STEM professionals was the real reason for H1B Visas and outsourcing, then quite frankly you are completely fucking ignorant of reality. It is painfully obvious that was not the case.

Strategist says

every Ivy League

Strategist, I can show up at Harvard, take any class I like as a Special Student, paying for each class ala carte, and get all A's and A-'s. (FYI, I did this already)

For me, that doesn't give me the impression that Harvard is composed of an all star cast of Leonardo DaVinci, Johann Goethe, Issac Newton, Nikola Tesla, and James Maxwell.

Seriously, I couldn't hold a candle against my aforementioned list above. Instead, I'm among the better students at Harvard without even having applied.

Rin says

Asians are seen as nerds by default

Exactly, so the REAL key for Asian to get into Harvard when there is hard quota of 21% year in/year out, the Asian applicant has to do decidedly un-Asian tasks and do well at those

Like Jeremy Lin being 2006 California Mr. Basketball for example.

MMR says

Strategist says

I heard of an Indian girl who got accepted in every Ivy League she applied to. She went to Med school and did her MBA at the same time.

1. What was she doing differently than other Asian and Indian candidates?

2. How come there is no article on this person in CNN?

Who knows. It would seem to me she is the cream of the crop.

Strategist says

It's India and China who have the brain drain when their skilled workers come to the West to work.

Honey, it's mostly outsourcing today, and those natives send their skills back to their home countries.

The most prestigious IT universities in the world aren't in America. They are in India. And both India and China are turning out far more STEM professionals than America.

There are consequences to disincentivizing STEM professional work.

MMR says

Exactly, so the REAL key for Asian to get into Harvard when there is hard quota of 21% year in/year out, the Asian applicant has to do decidedly in Asian tasks and do well at those

Like Jeremy Lin being 2006 California Mr. Basketball for example.

I'd say ... don't bother; take classes at Harvard's night time extension program and the Univ of London's online program and get some credentials, which will make that person, a viable candidate for either management consulting or financial services careers later, when one's resume is posted against those from the SUNYs and Conn States, who'll never get past the gatekeepers which hate public uni graduates.

Dan8267 says

hen quite frankly you are completely fucking ignorant of reality. It is painfully obvious that was not the case.

It's exactly why the stem shortage thing is a myth and also why there is limited wage growth for engineers. Very little growth I've observed anecdotally since y2k

Most stem people don't want their kids to do engineering and acquiesce when they do t show interest in medicine

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

It's the other way round. Not having enough people go into STEM is what created the need for H1B visas in the first place.

That's complete bullshit. Major companies like IBM spent three decades laying off American workers and hiring Indian and Chinese workers always begging for more H1B Visas and using outsourcing while slashing the jobs of Americans like crazy. I know a lot of former IBMers. A hell of a lot.

Just look at the results by looking at Silicon Valley. If it was not for skilled immigrants, we would not still be numero uno in technology.
China and India, both are turning out more STEM's than we are. It's just a matter of time before they overtake us.
Just imagine if we had 11 million skilled workers, instead of 11 million unskilled illegal workers. We would be 50 years ahead.

MMR says

theoakman says

My very best asian students have had the most impressive resumes and were bigger standouts than anyone in several area

So how did these Asian applicants resumes differ from one another? That would be the million dollar question. Also, how many of these bulletproof applications are coming from the exact school? Ivy League can't conceivably take them all...

Most of these applicants are awesome, but do they have that it factor that makes them too good to pass up...I believe the word fungible comes to mind here...these stellar candidates, for one reason are fungible when some Kennedy is too good to pass up.

I distinctly remember reading an article last year quoting some Princeton review people saying essentially that a lot of Asian applicants appear homogenous; In fact, I posted it here a few times as well

I've had way too many. My worst example was a girl who came over from China her junior year. She had already obtained two publications in Organic Chemistry Journals performing research at the local university that I set her up with. She also completed every AP test outside of the foreign languages by Junior year with all 5s. 800 on every SAT she took. Placed top of the state in NJ Science League two years a row in Physics 1 and Physics C. The best school she got into was University of Michigan.

Another student had developed a web programming business and already had 4 employees under him by age 16. He got into Carnegie Melon. Rejected by everyone else.

One student I worked with is now at Harvard...but he qualified and represented the US in the Physics Olympiad Twice. He also qualified for the Bio Olympiad as a sophomore. He completed Calc BC and Physics C by 8th grade. He also won god knows how many math competitions. He had a legitimate claim to best student in the country.

I have four former students right now in Princeton. One was state champion in golf. Another was a world class clarinet player. One established herself as the top Physics student in the state. Another is a state champion track runner.

The reality is I should have had 25. And you can't tell me that they can't accept them all when in fact....that's exactly what they do to the school 3 blocks down the street from me. There's nothing the kids who go to the private school near me do to standout other than have their parents toss around 200k for their high school education...which is a complete joke in comparison to a public school education in NJ.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

It's India and China who have the brain drain when their skilled workers come to the West to work.

Honey, it's mostly outsourcing today, and those natives send their skills back to their home countries.

The most prestigious IT universities in the world aren't in America. They are in India. And both India and China are turning out far more STEM professionals than America.

Darling, that's the point i'm trying to make. If we are to prosper as a nation, we need the brains we are not creating anymore. There are lots of brains floating around in this world. Lets offer them what we have, and what everyone wants......Yankee dollars. Lets steal the brains.

Rin says

I'd say ... don't bother; take classes at Harvard's night time extension program and the Univ of London's online program and get some credentials, which will make that person, a viable candidate for either management consulting or financial services careers later, when one's resume is posted against those from the SUNYs and Conn State, who'll never get past the gatekeepers which hate public uni graduates.

Your way is easier and probably more effective, but I'd argue that it doesn't do much to overcome stereotypes

Most of the California Mr. Basketball of the past 25 years have played successfully in the NBA or Europe and most have net worths between 3 and 70 million with most being well above 20 million

theoakman says

There's nothing the kids who go to the private school near me do to standout other than have their parents toss around 200k for their high school education...which is a complete joke in comparison to a public school education in NJ.

Oakman, when I'd taken those two classes at Harvard College during the daytime, the only thing I did was to do the work on time. I wasn't killing myself but I got two straight A's.

My senior partner, when he was at the Univ of London LLM program, he'd arrived in class with every "First Class/A" student from Singapore/Hong Kong, already prepped and ready to be examined. In other words, he realized that he was completely outclassed. By the time the finals had came around, all he could hope for was a 'B'. The standard for the 'First/A' was well above his level of subject mastery.

theoakman says

One was state champion in golf. Another was a world class clarinet player. One established herself as the top Physics student in the state. Another is a state champion track runner.

Not stereotypical in the least...not like there aren't any asians in say, Southern California doing the exact same thing or anything like that whatsoever or any other major city in the US for that matter

MMR says

Most of the California Mr. Basketball of the past 25 years have played successfully in the NBA or Europe and most have net worths between 3 and 70 million with most being well above 20 million

If you can play NCAA to NBA level of b-ball, then schooling is a moot point. Remember, Shaq went back for a PhD, after he made his millions.

Rin says

you can play NCAA to NBA level of b-ball, then schooling is a moot point. Remember, Shaq went back for a PhD, after he made his millions.

Fair enough