patrick.net

Dan, your self deception is obvious to everyone but yourself. At least if you were honest with yourself you would say that because you cannot measure or observe every aspect of the natural world you cannot possibly establish how it came into existence and therefore cannot possibly rule out the fact that there is a Creator. But unfortunately you cannot even be honest with yourself. When you deceive your own self, how can you expect others to believe anything you say?

Dan8267 says

Science and scientists are not the same thing.

Duh, but science was invented by scientists. Therefore science is only as good as the scientist. Once again you put your faith in the creature (science) more than the Creator. Another form of self deception.

You have FAITH in yourself. You believe that YOU can explain away your creator. That is a lot of faith! I think you have more faith than the most devoted religious person you know. You worship at the alter of human reasoning and yet dismiss the very purpose for your ability to reason.

Dan8267 says

Science and scientists are not the same thing. Science is a self-correcting mechanism. Religion is not. Science got us to the moon. No amount of praying would do that. Science has cured diseases and double the human lifespan. Religious miracles are all lies and tricks. Science has enlightened mankind on how the universe works. Religion has never been right about anything.

Hey, Dan does know a little bit about some things. I'm impressed.

PeopleUnited says

Dan, your self deception is obvious to everyone but yourself. At least if you were honest with yourself you would say that because you cannot measure or observe every aspect of the natural world you cannot possibly establish how it came into existence and therefore cannot possibly rule out the fact that there is a Creator.

You make a good point, but you would have to answer how the "creator" came into existence.

No MTV.

Dan8267 says

I hate evil. Religion and faith are evil. They are vices.

No good requires either, but both have caused people to do great evil. Both mandate irrationality and the belief in lies. And both, as you and PeopleUnited have demonstrated repeatedly, prevent people from thinking clearly and acquiring wisdom. Wisdom cannot be gained through lies and delusions. Wisdom is derived from accurate and truthful knowledge and understanding. As the religious have demonstrated on this thread, faith is incompatible with knowledge and understanding.

You speak like a blind man who has no idea what light is like.

Religion preaches love and faith, higher moral principles that unite us all as people under a common set of guiding principles. Without religion, who is to say what is right or wrong? Because what is not right for one, is right for another.

It isn't science, but it's not anti-science. Religion teaches wisdom and understanding. Something you closed your mind to, and no longer have as a skill Dan. You need religion more than anyone else to help you better.

Dan8267 says

Science got us to the moon

but can't tell us why people love the moonlight or why the moon is memorizlized in more poetry and songs than any body in the heavens. It can tell the how of the rainbow but not why the rainbow resonates with peoples hearts and souls, something you don't believe in. The unquantifiable realms of life bring more meaning to our lives than anything that can be enumerated in a laboratory and anyone can tell that from their personal experiece.

Hater says

What are the root causes of Islamic terrorism

A singularity, in which a more and more isolated OBL, in anger with the Saudis, his own family, used > $200M as venture capitol for terror. He was spoiled, and had so much more than most Muslims. He was in the top 0.001% of wealth and entitlement.

Investments include the Taliban, and a group of extremists who worked under the radar.

No OBL, no WTC1 or 2, no terror.

P N Dr Lo R says

Dan8267 says

Science got us to the moon

but can't tell us why people love the moonlight or why the moon is memorizlized in more poetry and songs than any body in the heavens.

Neither can religion.

Root causes:
1) Religion is brainwashing and has the power to shift people's natural thoughts on morality far from the natural state of things. Major religions were written many centuries ago, and there are some draconian things in our 'holy' books.
2) Tribalism and the human desire to model themselves after others in their local group goes hand in hand with religion, and funnels people into the local mosques.
3) The whims of people running local religions are hard to predict. If some 'bad dudes' run the show for a while, things can get out of control.
4) The West has a history of meddling in the middle east, and it is easy for people in the Middle East to blame the West. Leaders often scape goat enemies to garner support, so it is no surprise that our misdeeds have been exaggerated and presented as inherently evil.
5) When you mix #4 and #3, you are bound to get war once in a while.
6) There is no symmetry in our warfare capabilities. Terrorism is kind of a refuge of people who are out of other options. Even monkey's take part in terrorism to protect themselves from bigger foes. If a big monkey bullies a smaller monkey, the smaller monkey will often hurt one of the bigger monkey's family and make sure that the bigger monkey is watching. This is to let him know that the smaller monkey can hurt him if he persists with his bullying. So really, there is nothing new here.

P N Dr Lo R says

but can't tell us why people love the moonlight or why the moon is memorizlized in more poetry and songs than any body in the heavens. It can tell the how of the rainbow but not why the rainbow resonates with peoples hearts and souls, something you don't believe in.

The moon helped people see at night. The moon changes with time and is interesting to watch. People made up stories / belief systems to explain this. Rainbows are rare and seem very mysterious (before you know the science), so it seems magical.

To some people, science ruins the 'magic' and destroys the belief systems, and those people dislike science for that. Others think it is fascinating and love to know why things happen and be able to predict other things. Those people love science. Science cannot tell us why we love the moon, stars, and rainbows, but it's not to hard to figure out. More curious people are now more infatuated by the unknowns of today than the moon and rainbows.

Dan8267 says

And what causes the lack of sex? Faith.

Polygamy. Too few rich dudes taking all the bitches. That's why the biggest ISIS joiners are middle class: Too poor to buy a wife or bring in an Indonesian "Maid" (and no home of their own to bring her to); younger sons ran out of female cousins to marry.

Arabs basically all live off one or two patriarchs who control all the family/clan wealth, too. So their sex life is under his control as well.

Often, going on Jihad raises one's value, too. And worst case, you get your 72 Virgins and often your family gets big bucks if you die a Martyr.

That's why Israel bulldozes homes of terrorists, so when they get their blood money from terrorist orgs, it only puts them back where they were.

We should be subjecting Mateen's possessions to Forfeiture

I think the OP is really asking two questions that he's tried over-simplifying into one. There is the root cause being discussed here, which I believe is true in the more radicalized sects of Islam. That all non-believers must be killed all the time.
But the root cause that Americans should care about isn't that. The second root cause, what we should be focused on, is that endless war destroys countries, communities, and lives, and literally begs people to radicalize. How would you feel if some war-mongering, imperialist country that your country never sent a single solider to started bombing the shit out of your village, recruiting and training radical militants, armed them, then allowed them to run roughshod over what was left after the bombings, THEN started droning and bombing, while the radical militants that THEY trained, ran around cutting everyone's dick off, cooked 'em in a giant weiner roast, and made you eat them while shouting "Alah Akbar" at the top of your lungs while pieces of some dudes cooked penis fly out of your mouth, hitting your daughters in the face?

Now THAT'S fucking root cause!

NuttBoxer says

But the root cause that Americans should care about isn't that. The second root cause, what we should be focused on, is that endless war destroys countries, communities, and lives, and literally begs people to radicalize. How would you feel if some war-mongering, imperialist country that your country never sent a single solider to started bombing the shit out of your village, recruiting and training radical militants, armed them, then allowed them to run roughshod over what was left after the bombings, THEN started droning and bombing, while the radical militants that THEY trained, ran around cutting everyone's dick off, cooked 'em in a giant weiner roast, and made you eat them while shouting "Alah Akbar" at the top of your lungs while pieces of some dudes cooked penis fly out of your mouth, hitting your daughters in the face?

Now THAT'S fucking root cause!

What you mention is not the root cause of terrorism. It's the result of terrorism.
Figure out what was the root cause of Islamic terror before America was discovered. And you may have your answer.

Tim Aurora says

That does not mean that they are unnecessay and should be destroyed.

Support the assertion that religion is necessary. Tell me what good comes from it that cannot come from better sources.

P N Dr Lo R says

Dan8267 says

Science got us to the moon

but can't tell us why people love the moonlight or why the moon is memorizlized in more poetry and songs than any body in the heavens. It can tell the how of the rainbow but not why the rainbow resonates with peoples hearts and souls, something you don't believe in

Bullshit. Of course science can and does explain these things. You are just ignorant of it.

In any case, art does all that as well without requiring the irrationality and delusions of religion. No one ever flew planes into buildings or waged a crusade because of an art project.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

Polygamy. Too few rich dudes taking all the bitches.

You mean the few dudes that became rich by using religion and made polygamy the norm by using that same religion?

Strategist says

What you mention is not the root cause of terrorism. It's the result of terrorism.

Figure out what was the root cause of Islamic terror before America was discovered. And you may have your answer.

Your reply lacks any supporting evidence. Islam has been in existence for thousands of years. We've only started bitching about terrorism since 2000.

When did we start bombing the Middle East again...? When did we train Al-Quaeda? When did we train Isis?

Obama and couple pallets of cash worth about 50 billion dollars.

It's a shame all those terrorists are hiding what's left of one of the most beautiful products of capitalist America--a pity it had to come to this at only five years old.

Only capitalism can make this:

Why does any man
Do anything
In the whole damn world?

Cause there's a girl

Strategist says

Neither can religion

Who said it did?

Dan8267 says

You mean the few dudes that became rich by using religion and made polygamy the norm by using that same religion?

You got it! And Seldom go on Jihad themselves. Or only as "Advisors" in the rear with the gear while the dumbass kids blow themselves up or they entice orphan street kids around the Rockets for propaganda purposes. Right, Hamas?

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

Dan8267 says

You mean the few dudes that became rich by using religion and made polygamy the norm by using that same religion?

You got it! And Seldom go on Jihad themselves. Or only as "Advisors" in the rear with the gear while the dumbass kids blow themselves up or they entice orphan street kids around the Rockets for propaganda purposes. Right, Hamas?

This is so true. The Islamic terrorist leaders are a lot like David Koresh or other cult leaders who use their proselytes for wealth, sex, etc... And it is primarily their cult followers who put their lives at risk or literally give their lives to further the cult leaders interests.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

And Seldom go on Jihad themselves.

The people who start or control religions don't actually believe in them. They only believe in the usefulness of religion to get idiots to sacrifice their lives and wealth for you. All religions are scams. Some more transparently so then others, but all are scams.

Am I reading that right, less than 1% of people get married?

Curious as to why Sweden was historically such a low rate of marriage, they increased the frequency over time. What is different in their culture wrt marriage?

jazz music says

Yes after we lost Russia as boogeymen to make our people fearful and continue the war industry, and feed our younger generations into the green machines.

Don't worry, the Democrats are working hard at bringing it back, now that the US Public is sick of the Middle East interventions.

Pelosi, Feinstein, etc. need that MIC money flowing in to their Defense Contractor Constituencies.

jazz music says

Why do they think we are all so stupid

Could it be because of stupid comments like.......

jazz music says

American investments AND PROFITS in Hitler's slave camps was massive, these investors became our own war industry. They want the same for us all. You think they think that we are all special? Ha hah ha! You think it a coincidence that GOP keeps promoting policies with lethal consequences for voters?

jazz music says

The war industry arose from the slavery which led to America's civil war and then grew by backing Hitler with his slave camps, all the time looking for a way to convert Americans to slavery again.

jazz music says

And it's no coincidence why African history was erased from western schooling. America and Europe MADE SLAVES all over Africa taking gold, diamonds and spices.

How come Arab Slavery isn't mentioned?

The word Slave comes from Slav, which the Tartars sold to the Arabs and Turks by the millions. North African Arab Muslim Pirates took millions upon millions of White Slaves from the Coasts of Spain, France, Italy - as far as Ireland and even Iceland. Corsica's flag is a Moor's head to warn Arab Pirates and Slavers of their fate if they are caught raiding Corsica for plunder, rape, and slaves.

And of course, the Arabs totally enslaved most of East Africa. The European Slave Trade began when Portugal realized it was cheaper to buy slaves from Ghana than buy them in North Africa from the Maghreb, or East Africa from the Zanzibar.

The Arab Muslims were the greatest Slave Traders in history, bar none, enslaving from Marakech to Malaysia and beyond.

Europeans voluntarily ended the Slave Trade when they underwent a Moral Change. The Arabs ended Slavery only at the point of European firearms. Indeed the last Slave states, Mauretania, Saudi Arabia, and Sudan only did so under massive international pressure, and in fact Slavery continues there today. Qatar's World Cup Infrastructure will be built by Slaves, lured to Qatar not by flute-players as in the past, but by promises of employment; only to have their passports seized, to be beaten for slacking, kept in tents in the desert sun, and having their water revoked as punishment. Arab Slavery of Europeans only ended when Steamships were invented, allowing European Ships to outrun or chase down Arab Rowed Galleys that could escape with slaves into the wind, leaving sail ships behind.

The Great British Empire, and the Royal Navy in particular, was the primary force responsible for the end of Slavery and the Slave Trade.

The Great Hero and MP's Name was William Wilburforce, the Crusader Against Slavery.

jazz music says

So the issue that we are all divided on is you are either for slavery or against it.

jazz music says

You already know that "Conservatism" has nothing to do with responsible spending when Republicans are in power amassing power for the powerful and the trickle down wealth for themselves ALONE.

jazz music says

Africa had coal mines too and a lot of other minerals. THE TRICKLE DOWN WAS THE SAME AS ALWAYS.

To this day the war torn African nations like Somalia have the closest thing on earth to a FREE MARKET ECONOMY!

WTF are you rambling about?

jazz music says

If you are against slavery that atuomatically puts you in the category of being a John Locke LIBERAL Since you are subscribing to his philosophy and I quote:

Yes. A Liberal. Not an Intersectional Bourgeois Globalist Neoliberal.

Let's NOT Pray For London

Let's Pray Change the Policy on Immigration and institute One Law For All.

We already Prayed for Orlando, Paris, Belgium, Germany, London two or three times before, etc. Time to Have a Open, Equal Time Debate and Change the Policy.

Ironman says

Strategist says

WTF are you rambling about?

Ha Ha ha Just what I was thinking.

I think he had 10 too many.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

Only an idiot would believe that.

Strategist says

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

Only an idiot would believe that.

Separately, she acknowledged that lethal terrorism "is clearly rooted in Islamic thinking," so she's not an idiot, but she has a long record of saying opposite things. President Trump makes practically a parody of that. When the Democrats nominate a candidate who says opposite things, what can you do but accelerate the process?

jazz music says

I usually don't call you on this but "Neoliberal" has an entirely different meaning. Neoliberal if you look it up refers to 20th-century resurgence of 19th-century ideas associated with laissez-faire economic liberalism. -- in other words "Paleo-capitalism."

Yep. And the Clintonistas, Blaires, Trudeaus are all about "Breaking down barriers to Trade" "Opening Borders", which is corporate speak for "Eliminate Trade Restrictions no matter how much harm it causes domestically, Export Jobs, and flood the labor market with more workers than job openings."

If it wasn't for Clinton and Blair able to move enough Democrats/Labour behind NAFTA/EU Expansion, Big Banks, Pharma, Insurance (Obamneycare), etc., we wouldn't be where we are now.

Most Democrats on this board - Marcus, YesYNot, anonymous, Bob - are economic neoliberals who buy the Corporate Think Tank line on the STEM (glut) shortage, H1Bs, Jobs Americans Won't Do, tons of mass migration of cheaper labor or you're a racist, Public-Private Partnerships (ie Public Pays the Expenses, Private Takes the Profits), etc. This is now the dominant thinking of the Democratic Party.

Bernie, Warren, and (I think lost his seat) Grayson, maybe some others are either in the minority, or buy into a big slice of the neoliberalism platform themselves. And the hard Lefties like Waters only care about welfare.

Trump is the reverse Clinton who is trying to take the Republican party back to a more nationalist, protectionist, traditional Hamiltonian Economic System that we had prior to the 1980s. At least he's worth a gamble. The Democratic Leadership is entirely Clintonista based. Even after a dramatic, surprise loss, they elected yet another Clintonista to run the DNC.

Right now Socialism means hating Whitey, denying that non-Whites can be Racist, worrying about Transgender bathrooms, asserting that Women with Master's Degrees driving BMWs or Lexuses (Lexi?) are oppressed by Patriarchy, while supporting massive transnational economic globalization. That's why it's useless; only Nationalism can do the job.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

Right now Socialism means hating Whitey, denying that non-Whites can be Racist, worrying about Transgender bathrooms, asserting that Women with Master's Degrees driving BMWs or Lexuses (Lexi?) are oppressed by Patriarchy, while supporting massive transnational economic globalization.

It's actually so brilliant I cannot believe it was an accident or evolution of the Left.

The Left was deliberately destroyed by SJW issues and rabid feminists. The workers suffered, and moved to the right to support Trump.

Even now, I'm struck by how oddly similar Bernie's and Trump's positions are. Even Marketplace on NPR just had a bit tonight where they quoted them both saying the same things about NAFTA.

Strategist says

zzyzzx says

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

Lack of Sex is the #1 factor in most terrorism.

Did they run out of goats in all the Islamic countries?

You are so insensitive, Zzyzzx. Do you think goats can compete with the breeding rates of Muslims? Obviously there is a shortage go goats, and sheep, and camels.

www.youtube.com/embed/_VKWLC87Uzw

"Even now, I'm struck by how oddly similar Bernie's and Trump's positions are. Even Marketplace on NPR just had a bit tonight where they quoted them both saying the same things about NAFTA."

Is that meant as a joke? They have one policy position where they are similar. They are HUGELY different on:

taxes
healthcare
EPA
Education
Civil forfeiture
financial regulation
immigration
et. al

Trump is wrong on so many issues, the one issue he's right on is almost irrelevant.

I don't know, maybe we should bomb their countries some more, then invite the refugees we create to come live in the United States?

Then when finally the US dollar goes to zero, we have a convenient ethnic group to focus on as the actual criminals get away, again.

Seems like a good plan to me

GeneralNorth says

I don't know, maybe we should bomb their countries some more, then invite the refugees we create to come live in the United States?

A better plan would be to make Muslim countries bomb their own fucking terrorists.
Islam is the root cause of terrorism, it's their fucking responsibility.

Dan8267 says

All religions are scams. Some more transparently so then others, but all are scams.

There are scammers who use religion for self profit. And I have not seen one religion that has not been used by scammers for this purpose. And the same could be said about every invention of mankind. But if there is any absolute truth a person needs to look past the corrupt people who believe it and adopt it themselves.

For example, just because cars and planes can be used for homicide doesn't mean they are inherently corrupt devices. And just because people use a religion for personal gain doesn't mean that absolute truths found in that religion are any less true.