patrick.net

Privacy issues?

Voluntary.

buyers can get screwed by that as well. seller agents lie and tell the buyer agents there are more bids and the bids are higher, resulting in the buyers bidding higher.

i don't see what privacy issues.

1. there is already 0 privacy at auctions.
2. as long as the names of buyers are omitted, there is no problem. however, the number of bids and the amounts should be submitted to the MLS by the buyer agents directly so everyone can see them before bidding.

the way it is done right now encourages fraud and screws over buyers and sellers.

Not to the MLS though!

It is a private database controlled by realtors and rife with fraud already.

rando says

It is a private database controlled by realtors and rife with fraud already.

Why can't there be a MLS that the public can look at? Isn't this the choke-hold the Real Estate agents and brokers have on sellers and buyers? Could an alternative be started to the MLS (`a la bitcoin to cash)?

Indiana Jones says

rando says

It is a private database controlled by realtors and rife with fraud already.

Why can't there be a MLS that the public can look at? Isn't this the choke-hold the Real Estate agents and brokers have on sellers and buyers? Could an alternative be started to the MLS (`a la bitcoin to cash)?

There are several.
Redfin.com
Zillow.com

Strategist says

There are several.

Redfin.com

Zillow.com

These are not exactly the same, right? These don't necessarily include everything written on the actual MLS listing.

Indiana Jones says

These are not exactly the same, right? These don't necessarily include everything written on the actual MLS listing.

I believe Redfin is exactly the same. They are brokers too, and put up everything on their site.

there are many different MLS databases in the country. and they are not synced.

meaning, Redfin and Zillow COULD be two different ones. and when a realtor uploads info of a house to the net, she uploads to both.

then some of the info is withheld from the public. such as rental history, etc.

When we deal with stocks, don't we have the financials, even if they are misleading?
The P/E Ratio?
The bid/ask price?
In fact, you can see see the big/ask change from just a few minutes ago without paying a dollar on Yahoo! or Google Finance.
Why shouldn't all RE bids be available freely on multiple websites?
The volume sold in a day/hour/last minute?

Why is real estate so special ?

Because information control allows higher pricing that would be acceptable.

"Asking $180k. Last bid $155k 24 hours ago, current highest bid $160k 15 days ago. Time on Market: 64 days"

Man Realtors would hate it if R/E information was available like stocks.

They already hate that you can see that a modest 2 bed in a slowly gentrifying area was brought for $100k 6 months ago, and now is back on the market asking $150k, so the flipper can pocket the difference. Then buyers say "F that, I'll look for an old one and put the $25k into it myself and save a coupla' ten thousand." They hate that on Zillow you can see the historical tax assessments, last few transactions, Comparables, etc. just in 1 second clicking the left mouse button and realize the $200k house is really worth $165k, and it's hardly "The last chance to buy affordably in the neighborhood" when you see two other units in the same building going for around $175k

Strategist says

Indiana Jones says

rando says

It is a private database controlled by realtors and rife with fraud already.

Why can't there be a MLS that the public can look at? Isn't this the choke-hold the Real Estate agents and brokers have on sellers and buyers? Could an alternative be started to the MLS (`a la bitcoin to cash)?

There are several.

Redfin.com

Zillow.com

Redfin and Zillow simply publish the subset of the MLS's that are acceptable to the realtors so far. There are many restrictions on what they can publish. I remember one: they may not list foreclosures on the same page as retail full-price houses. And they still don't have all the MLS's on board, because the MLS's are worried about losing control. So there are many listings on, say, realtor.com that you will never find on Zillow or Redfin.

There is actually not just one MLS, but a patchwork of MLS systems across the US which have all sworn to fuck both buyers and sellers as much as possible for the benefit of Realtors(TM). Not kidding. They are absolutely in no way in the public interest and their goal is to prevent free market pricing no matter what.

They should be replaced with a public system, but who would run it?

BTW, the NAR is the second largest lobbyist in DC, so they've had their dicks in pretty much every orifice in that town. Here are the top corruptors of our Congressmen, in order:

US Chamber of Commerce $103,950,000
National Assn of Realtors $64,821,111
Blue Cross/Blue Shield $25,006,109
American Hospital Assn $20,970,809
Pharmaceutical Research & Manufacturers of America $19,730,000
American Medical Assn $19,410,000
Boeing Co $17,020,000
National Assn of Broadcasters $16,438,000
AT&T Inc $16,370,000
Business Roundtable $15,700,000
Alphabet Inc $15,430,000 (Google)
Comcast Corp $14,330,000
Southern Co $13,900,000
Dow Chemical $13,635,982
Lockheed Martin $13,615,811
NCTA The Internet & Television Assn $13,420,000
FedEx Corp $12,541,000
Northrop Grumman $12,050,000
Exxon Mobil $11,840,000
Amazon.com $11,354,000

http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=s&showYear=2016

Not a good idea. Why do you keep trying to expand government, that is the wrong way to.

A better strategy is to get rid of regulations that drive real estate costs up.

indigenous says

A better strategy is to get rid of regulations that drive real estate costs up.

What?

Are you unaware that it is exactly the lack of regulation on the Realtor monopoly that drives real estate costs up? The NAR felt it necessary to pay more than $64 million in bribes last year to prevent government regulations so that they can keep fucking the public with their monopolistic practices

Do you somehow equate monopolies with the "free market" when they are the opposite of the free market?

I just want transparency in the market, and they sure as hell do not want that, because then we would have a free and fair market for both buyers and sellers and realtor commissions would go down.

rando says

There is actually not just one MLS, but a patchwork of MLS systems across the US which have all sworn to fuck the public as much as possible for the benefit of Realtors(TM). Not kidding. They are absolutely in no way in the public interest.

I absolutely agree. They not only screw the buyers and sellers, but they screw each other too, as can be seen in the original post by "A good realtor"
End of 2011, i was adamant on buying several investment properties. I had got myself a real estate license, thinking i could keep some commissions for myself, and get some insider information to my benefit. Did not work. Offer after offer, I just could not make a deal happen. By February 2012, i changed tactics. I went through the listing agent only, giving up my commissions, and magically all the doors opened for me. 5 properties in 2012, and 2 more in the last 2 years, one for my daughter and our primary home, i can clearly state the whole system is rigged and corrupt. If i with a real estate license HAD TO go through the fucking criminal listing agent to get the right property at the right price, what chance is there for an average buyer, desperate for a home to get a good deal? There is none.
I would be glad to prove and testify in a court of law, the above I have stated. If there is a lawyer trying to change the system, who needs my testimony, I am here for you. Everything I have stated is accurate.

Thanks @Strategist so do you agree the whole system of bids should be completely transparent with all bids published?

What's the best way to do that? What to do about fake bids?

I don't know the particulars of real estate.

But ALL monopolies come from government intervention, NO exceptions.

E.G. a taxi medallion in NYC is 500k, Davis Bacon laws were to protect union jobs (prevailing wage jobs), the FDA's real purpose it to protect EpiPen type companies from competitors.

rando says

Thanks @Strategist so do you agree the whole system of bids should be completely transparent with all bids published?

I love the idea, but I don't know if all buyers and all sellers would want their bids published before the close of escrow, because the terms could be the influencing factor in consummating an offer. A law requiring all bids to be published after the close of escrow might be easier, because the seller WILL SEE all that he should have been seen. A corrupt listing agent would then need to prove why a double commission was in the interests of the seller in spite of higher offers from other agents.

Yes, I think all bids should be published after close of escrow. That would be easier than before, and would still put some pressure on realtor scum to stop fucking the public.

Patrick we should demand transparency.

Too much opportunity for fraud with the current system.

indigenous says

But ALL monopolies come from government intervention, NO exceptions.

Uh, wrong.

Cornelius Vanderbuilt created a monopoly on NYC ferries by simply giving away rides systematically until his competitors died from lack of revenue. Then when they were dead, he would start charging again. He could do that because he had enough wealth.

Microsoft systematically destroyed one profitable business after another (Wordstar, Lotus123, Netscape) by bundling and giving away the product with the OS until the competitor died from lack of revenue. Then Microsoft started charging for Word and Excel.

How was government intervention responsible for those monopolies?

Strategist says

A law requiring all bids to be published after the close of escrow might be easier, because the seller WILL SEE all that he should have been seen. A corrupt listing agent would then need to prove why a double commission was in the interests of the seller in spite of higher offers from other agents.

Or could patrick.net provide this service? If all bidders know about it, they would list their bids here after the sale, and sellers could then look here after the sale and see what the bids really were, not just what some realtor told him the bids were.

It's a chicken and egg thing though. How to get that ball rolling?

How would I contact the bidders who lost to ask them to list their bids here? No one knows their names except corrupt realtors, and that's by design.

But you know, if this got into the press, then the ball would roll by itself. Each corrupt realtor would make a nice news story, and there would be a lot of those.

rando says

Strategist says

A law requiring all bids to be published after the close of escrow might be easier, because the seller WILL SEE all that he should have been seen. A corrupt listing agent would then need to prove why a double commission was in the interests of the seller in spite of higher offers from other agents.

Or could patrick.net provide this service? If all bidders know about it, they would list their bids here after the sale, and sellers could then look here after the sale and see what the bids really were, not just what some realtor told him the bids were.

That is one helluva idea. The Secret Intelligence of all real estate transactions. All those willing, could submit their offers, opinions, and information on every real estate transaction.
People could also submit proof of structural problems that were not disclosed, and anything to hide facts from the buyer, before or after the transaction.
Love it. Love it. Love it. OMG.

rando says

Uh, wrong.

Uh back at ya. You are misinformed.

This is a cut and paste from the Mises institute:

The battle between market and political entrepreneurs was not confined to the railroad and oil industries. Indeed, from the mid-nineteenth century onward, this sort of battle marked the development of much of American industry — the steamship industry, the steel industry, and the auto industry, to name just a few.

For example, the great steamship entrepreneur Cornelius Vanderbilt competed with government-subsidized political entrepreneurs for much of his career. In fact, he got his start in business by competing — illegally — against a state-sanctioned steamship monopoly operated by Robert Fulton. In 1807, the New York state legislature had granted Fulton a legal, thirty-year monopoly on steamboat traffic in New York — a classic example of mercantilism.37 In 1817, however, a young Cornelius Vanderbilt was hired by New Jersey businessman Thomas Gibbons to defy the monopoly and run steamboats in New York. Vanderbilt worked in direct competition with Fulton, charging lower rates as his boats raced from Elizabeth, New Jersey, to New York City; to underscore the challenge to Fulton's monopoly, Vanderbilt flew a flag on his boats that read NEW JERSEY MUST BE FREE. Slowly he was breaking down the Fulton monopoly, which the US Supreme Court finally ended in 1824, ruling in Gibbons v. Ogden that only the federal government, not the states, could regulate interstate trade under the Commerce Clause of the Constitution.38

As the cost of steamboat traffic plummeted because of deregulation, the volume of traffic increased significantly and the industry took off. Vanderbilt became the leading market entrepreneur in the industry, but he would continue to face government-subsidized competitors. For example, steamship operator Edward K. Collins convinced Congress that it needed to subsidize the transatlantic steamship business to compete with the Europeans and to create a military fleet in case of war. In 1847 Congress awarded Collins $3 million, plus $385,000 per year. Sitting on these fat subsidies, Collins had little incentive to build his ships efficiently or to watch his costs once they were built. Instead of focusing on making his business more efficient, Collins spent lavishly on lobbying, including wining and dining President Millard Fillmore, his entire cabinet, and many congressmen.39

Like James J. Hill in the railroad industry, Vanderbilt did not shy away from competing against his heavily subsidized rivals. Not surprisingly, these government-supported rivals ultimately could not keep up with Vanderbilt, in large part because the stifling regulations that were inevitably attached to the government subsidies made these steamship lines remarkably inefficient. By 1858, Collins's line had become so inefficient that Congress ended his subsidy, and he promptly went bankrupt. He could not compete with Vanderbilt on an equal basis.

https://mises.org/library/truth-about-robber-barons#4

At the Microsoft monopoly, there was Apple and Linux, i.e. not a monopoly.

Strategist says

That is one helluva idea. The Secret Intelligence of all real estate transactions. All those willing, could submit their offers, opinions, and information on every real estate transaction.
People could also submit proof of structural problems that were not disclosed, and anything to hide facts from the buyer, before or after the transaction.
Love it. Love it. Love it. OMG.

I'm not sure I could let people list offers, because the realtor cartel would call that "practicing real estate without a license" and realtors are the ones in charge of real estate laws, not the people.

But merely publishing facts and opinions seems entirely protected by the First Amendment.

How to get started? If I could just get and republish lists of known property sales, that would be a good start, since people could find a page on my site for each sale via a search engine. I tried to get property sales from San Mateo County about 10 years back, but they would not give them to me, saying I had to come in and write them down one at a time manually, with a pencil that they would provide. Not kidding. Maybe it's easier now.

Better would be to just get a massive list of all known sales for the whole US. Maybe someone provides that for a reasonable cost. Certainly the realtors are highly protective of that info and do not give it away. Nor do any of the big real estate sites like Zillow. Even if they let the public see it, to copy it would violate their "terms of use".

Where can I get the list of sales?

rando says

Strategist says

That is one helluva idea. The Secret Intelligence of all real estate transactions. All those willing, could submit their offers, opinions, and information on every real estate transaction.

People could also submit proof of structural problems that were not disclosed, and anything to hide facts from the buyer, before or after the transaction.

Love it. Love it. Love it. OMG.

I'm not sure I could let people list offers, because the realtor cartel would call that "practicing real estate without a license" and realtors are the ones in charge of real estate laws, not the people.

But merely publishing facts and opinions seems entirely protected by the First Amendment.

How to get started? If I could just get an republish lists of known property sales, that would be a good start, since people could a page on my site for each sale them via a search engine. ...

No one that i have heard of is doing something like this.
Some kind of a blog.
Get the right web name.
Start local.
There is a clear need from the consumers point of view for something like this. I wish I had the inside knowledge and information on every real estate i have purchased.
You will be loved by the consumer and hated by the REALTORS.

Does anyone have a county website that actually lists addresses of recently sold property?

rando says

Does anyone have a county website that actually lists addresses of recently sold property?

SF Chronicle does this every week (at least did at one point). Let me see if I can dig it up

rando says

Does anyone have a county website that actually lists addresses of recently sold property?

http://countyrecordsresearch.com

Strategist says

rando says

Does anyone have a county website that actually lists addresses of recently sold property?

http://countyrecordsresearch.com

•New Properties Added Daily • “Virtual Assistant” Automatic Notifications
• Sale Updates every 15 Minutes • Free unlimited consultation and mentoring
• Text & Email Notifications • Free Foreclosure Basics Tutorial
• Free Trustee Sales Field Trips • Free Email Notifications

@Ironman do you have any county web page which shows recently sold property addresses?

Strategist says

rando says

Does anyone have a county website that actually lists addresses of recently sold property?

http://countyrecordsresearch.com

That's a commercial service. Not viable for me to use, at least not yet.

But no list of recently sold prices there, right Ironman?

Long ago, a guy at the San Mateo County office in Redwood City told me that I would never find such a list on any county website, because realtors wouldn't like it.

I think he's still right.

No addresses though, right? Only these:

Type GRANTOR GRANTEE Inst. Num Recorded TownName Block Lot Book Page

The "view" link sent me to this page, not to any data:

I suppose the newspapers work well enough for the moment:

http://www.sfgate.com/webdb/homesales/

1283 El Camino Real Burlingame 94010 2/15/2017 $1,480,000
3175 Geneva Avenue Daly City 94014 2/15/2017 $765,000
622 Southgate Avenue Daly City 94015 2/15/2017 $1,127,000
1765 East Bayshore Road #214 East Palo Alto 94303 2/15/2017 $733,000
1049 Shell Boulevard #10 Foster City 94404 2/15/2017 $675,000
1123 Forrestal Lane Foster City 94404 2/15/2017 $1,330,000
1559 Mizzen Lane Half Moon Bay 94019 2/15/2017 $892,000
2140 Santa Cruz Avenue #B210 Menlo Park 94025 2/15/2017 $746,000
933 Hermosa Way Menlo Park 94025 2/15/2017 $3,250,000
60 Linaria Way Portola Valley 94028 2/15/2017 $1,918,500
95 Lerida Court Portola Valley 94028 2/15/2017 $2,400,000
1745 Hull Avenue Redwood City 94061 2/15/2017 $1,500,000
1286 Fernside Street Redwood City 94061 2/15/2017 $1,625,000
961 Cherry Street San Carlos 94070 2/15/2017 $1,130,000
142 Plymouth Avenue San Carlos 94070 2/15/2017 $2,180,000
218 Tilton Avenue #104 San Mateo 94401 2/15/2017 $670,000
383 Hobart Avenue San Mateo 94402 2/15/2017 $2,081,000
22 Parrott Court San Mateo 94402 2/15/2017 $2,505,000
421 Aragon Boulevard San Mateo 94402 2/15/2017 $2,600,000
3550 Carter Drive #27 South San Francisco 94080 2/15/2017 $550,500
12190 Skyline Boulevard Woodside 94062 2/15/2017 $1,674,000
49 Skyline Drive Daly City 94015 2/14/2017 $865,000
1982 West Bayshore Road #230 East Palo Alto 94303 2/14/2017 $620,000
935 Runnymede Street East Palo Alto 94303 2/14/2017 $630,000
1404 Melbourne Street Foster City 94404 2/14/2017 $2,080,000

I picked one of them and started a post about it here:

https://patrick.net/1304355/2017-03-27-who-bid-on-2140-santa-cruz-avenue-b210-menlo-park-94025

Yes, thanks @Ironman that did work. OK, I have an existence proof now that at least one county website does publish recent sale prices.

Most recent one is very interesting. Only $1? I bet this was excluded from comps, lol!

Document Detail

Type:	DEED
File No.:	2017030739
Date/Time:	3/24/2017  10:19:12
Book Type:	O
Book/Page:	16692/68
Pages:	4
Consideration:	$1.00
Legal 1:	6 WEST RAMAPO LANE
Legal 2:	 

Grantors:
ZERVOULIAS DONNA M
NERY DEIDRE A
MICHAEL GILBRIDE IRREVOCABLE TRUST
GILBRIDE MICHAEL IRREVOCABLE TRUST
Grantees:
GILBRIDE MARY

Now it gets interesting: what is the low price cutoff below which realtors won't report the price?