patrick.net

The interesting thing is that factory farming can be better environmentally per pig produced, because it is so much more efficient in food utilization and getting the waste in one spot is better than having it all over the place. The environmental solution is to cover the lagoon, use the methane to generate electricity, and use other methods of irrigation. The method discussed is called the 'big gun' or center pivot. If you look out your window as you fly over farmland, in dry areas - say western parts of Iowa and Kansas, you will see green circles in the middle of browner squares. The green circle is due to center pivot irrigation. There are other methods that waste less water and spray less urine in the case of animal waste.
The problem with factory farming is that it produces meat so cheaply that huge numbers of animals are around, and they do piss and shit. There are more pigs in NC than people, and pigs weigh a lot more than people. It also costs the fishing industry a lot of money due to runoff into the primary rivers.

YesYNot says

The interesting thing is that factory farming can be better environmentally per pig produced, because it is so much more efficient in food utilization and getting the waste in one spot is better than having it all over the place. The environmental solution is to cover the lagoon, use the methane to generate electricity, and use other methods of irrigation.

Yes, that would be far, far better. Unfortunately, short-term profit motivation and cost shifting via pollution and other means prevents this from happening, and that's because of capitalism. We need to abandon the owner controls everything and does nothing model and replace it with one that rewards true net productivity, which means that pollution directly cuts into your profits.

It's the workers that create all the wealth, right? So ask them to keep working in Venezuela, so that they may keep creating wealth.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/20/news/economy/venezuela-general-motors/

Hey Jazz, why not settle down in Venezuela? Good homes, good cars, good jobs, gourmet restaurants and lots of beer. Why live in a hell hole like America?
Take Dan with you.

Hey this just in:
11 people were murdered overnight by the government of Venezuela, just because they want elections.

Republicans are immune to all forms of pollution.

Don't forget global warming. It's raining HOT piss and shit.

How did it smell when people raised pigs in their courtyard?

There's a question of scale here more than capitalism: we have 7 billions people, it shows.

Strategist says

why not settle down in Venezuela

I've never said I wanted the Venezuela economic system. The fact that you think that and what America has are the only two choices proves your opinions don't matter. You have no grasp on reality.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

why not settle down in Venezuela

I've never said I wanted the Venezuela economic system. The fact that you think that and what America has are the only two choices proves your opinions don't matter. You have no grasp on reality.

So which country's economic system would you want? Don't make one up. No one wants that.

jazz music says

Strategist says

Hey Jazz, why not settle down in Venezuela?

References? Or are you just talking out your ass?

Venezuela hates America like you do for all the same reasons. You would be an ideal citizen. All you would have to do is getting used to a life without toilet paper.

APOCALYPSEFUCK_is_ADORABLE says

Somalia has FREE!dom!

Liberia has LIBERTY!

You can buy an army of 7 year olds for the price of a pack of cigarettes.

That's an economy that is working for its people!

Sudan too. They may be starving, but at the very least they don't have a rotten economic system like ours.
That should make Dan and Jazz happy.

Strategist says

So which country's economic system would you want? Don't make one up. No one wants that.

Fuck that. Every technological advancement is, by definition, making something up. Why should I limit the success of my country with obsolete technology? I've described in detail many economic reforms we should implement. The fact that other countries haven't beaten us to implementing those reforms yet doesn't mean we should wait until we lose the race. You're a follower. I'm a leader.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

You don't know of any better existing system, do you? You have to make one up. LOL.

Making up a new system is called inventing, dumb ass. It's how progress is made. I invent new things every day.

LOL. What you are trying to do is called dreaming. Inventing something is what works.

Dan8267 says

It's why I make a good living. Only a fool resigns himself to never use anything more advance than a Bronze Age technology.

In that case you need to go to Venezuela and invent capitalism. Because it works, HELLO?

And this is why Strategist would suck at business. He doesn't believe in innovation.

There's a middle ground between Venezuela and corporations raining shit down on their neighbors. The EPA had a program to subsidize lagoon covers, but many farmers didn't take them up on it. Part of that is the fact that culturally, farmers tend to be republican and view the EPA and agricultural scientists with distrust. The other part is that corporations don't care unless they are hit with fines. That short trailer didn't address another problem which is what happens when a hurricane comes through and floods the lagoon. That means that flood waters nearby are really pig shit cesspools.

The middle ground involves one of two options (1) settle things by making the corporate farmers compensate their neighbors bigly and use environmental controls to mitigate the damage or (2) give the neighbors guns and let them protect their own rights without fear of punishment from the government who will not protect them. The neighbors have rights, and sending them off to Venezuela is not a reasonable solution when they want to stand up for those rights.

I'd vote for option (1), because that provides a transparent and stable mechanism to protect rights. OTOH, option (2) is the totally free market solution and is reminiscent of our glorious past in the wild west.

Because you responded.
Which proves it.

jazz music says

Strategist says

Venezuela hates America like you do for all the same reasons. You would be an ideal citizen. All you would have to do is getting used to a life without toilet paper.

Oh just your opinion.

I should care why

jazz music says

Strategist says

Venezuela hates America like you do for all the same reasons. You would be an ideal citizen. All you would have to do is getting used to a life without toilet paper.

Oh just your opinion.

I should care why?

You refuse to leave America, this hell hole, and go to the awesome Utopia that is Venezuela.
I guess you only realize the value of toilet paper when it's not there. ROFL.

Hey Dan, Jazz I booked you two on a one way flight to Venezuela. Its for May 1, 2017.

https://www.expedia.com/Flights-Search?flight-type=on&starDate=05%2F01%2F2017&_xpid=11905%7C1&mode=search&trip=oneway&leg1=from%3ALos+Angeles%2C+CA+%28LAX-Los+Angeles+Intl.%29%2Cto%3AVenezuela+Plaza%2C+Caracas%2C+Venezuela%2Cdeparture%3A05%2F01%2F2017TANYT&passengers=children%3A0%2Cadults%3A2%2Cseniors%3A0%2Cinfantinlap%3AY

Strategist says

Hey Dan, Jazz I booked you two on a one way flight to Venezuela. Its for May 1, 2017.

Why should Jazz an I leave America? You are the one fucking it up. We're trying to improve America. Those who prevent improvement of a society should be forced to leave it. America is about freedom, not about having an owner royalty class. That shit went out when the Middle Ages ended. Perhaps you should move to Medieval Europe. You seem to love that model. Just don't come crawling back when you are assigned the status of peasant instead of lord.

YesYNot says

There's a middle ground between Venezuela and corporations raining shit down on their neighbors.

Not only middle ground, there's plenty of ground orthogonal to the two. I'm tired of false dichotomies.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Hey Dan, Jazz I booked you two on a one way flight to Venezuela. Its for May 1, 2017.

Why should Jazz an I leave America?

I couldn't handle seeing you two in pain anymore. I had to do something.
You can write software out there, and Jazz can write poetry about the horrors of life in America.
I know you will love it there. Send us a postcard, and make us jealous.

Dan8267 says

We're trying to improve America. Those who prevent improvement of a society should be forced to leave it.

Exactly whyI got you one way tickets.

Dan8267 says

Perhaps you should move to Medieval Europe. You seem to love that model. Just don't come crawling back when you are assigned the status of peasant instead of lord.

What? I'm a fucking atheist. They will burn me on the stake the moment I tell them the world is round.

People like Strategist are the reason America needs to be split up into several separate countries. Clearly Americans can't live with each other. So let's see whose economic and social model works best.

Here's a preliminary proposal...

Strategist says

They will burn me on the stake the moment I tell them the world is round.

This is always the risk when you embrace any kind of irrationality. You can live in a world of science or a world of superstitious dogma. In the former, everything is a science, even economics, and is answerable to experimental results.

Dan8267 says

We can and do live peacefully with each other. America is a melting pot, and the people who come here from all over the world live here more peacefully than in their countries of origin.

Strategist says

We can and do live peacefully with each other.

Then demonstrate that principle instead of telling people with different ideas than yours to leave the country. Hypocrisy much?

YesYNot says

The middle ground involves one of two options (1) settle things by making the corporate farmers compensate their neighbors bigly and use environmental controls to mitigate the damage or (2) give the neighbors guns and let them protect their own rights without fear of punishment from the government who will not protect them.

You forgot option #3, which is to shut down the farm, and others just like it to "save the environment". The pork previously produced by these farms would then be imported from filthy third world countries that have absolutely no pollution controls or labor laws.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

We can and do live peacefully with each other.

Then demonstrate that principle instead of telling people with different ideas than yours to leave the country. Hypocrisy much?

All your ideas have a socialist base, which history has proven never to work. We don't want to go backwards, we want to go forward.
If your ideas are that good do the failed countries like Venezuela a favor and help them out.

Strategist says

All your ideas have a socialist base

Actually, not they don't. You just treat economics like a religion and your dogma is that capitalism and communism, which you confuse with socialism, are the only two choices. They are not. I believe that those who create the wealth should keep their wealth, as oppose to capitalism which states that those who own the infrastructure because their ancestors bribed politicians get to keep the wealth they did not create. So don't misrepresent my arguments. If you aren't smart enough to understand those ideas, that's your problem.

Booger says

The pork previously produced by these farms would then be imported from filthy third world countries that have absolutely no pollution controls or labor laws.

Or give up pork.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

All your ideas have a socialist base

Actually, not they don't. You just treat economics like a religion and your dogma is that capitalism and communism, which you confuse with socialism, are the only two choices. They are not.

There is communism on one end, and pure capitalism on the other end. All others are somewhere in between. If you have a third alternative, lets hear it.

Dan8267 says

I believe that those who create the wealth should keep their wealth

I'm glad you see the importance of incentives. Humans are basically selfish and greedy, and its not gonna change until evolution dictates it must change.

Dan8267 says

capitalism which states that those who own the infrastructure because their ancestors bribed politicians get to keep the wealth they did not create.

Thats not capitalism, and no one thinks that should be the case.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

capitalism which states that those who own the infrastructure because their ancestors bribed politicians get to keep the wealth they did not create.

Thats not capitalism, and no one thinks that should be the case.

That's exactly what capitalism is. Someone with political connection obtained the mineral rights to some land for a tiny fraction of their value. Miners extract the minerals for a tiny percentage of their wealth creation. Meanwhile the owner gets rich doing no work.

Capitalism is private ownership of the means of production by a few individual and mass numbers of workers who do not own the fruits of their labor. The owners get to distribute the wealth created by the workers however they see fit, and they always see fit to give the actual wealth producers as little as they can get away with. The owners cut the pie and then decides who gets what piece, while the workers till the land, harvest the crops, and bake the pie. It's a stupid system and it's not efficient.

Strategist says

There is communism on one end, and pure capitalism on the other end. All others are somewhere in between. If you have a third alternative, lets hear it.

The fact that you think all of economics can be reduced to a single dimension demonstrates grave misunderstanding and lack of thought on the subject. There are literally an infinite number of ways economic systems can be built. One alternative is to take away the power of owners to decide pay. A person's total income, both wage and benefits if any, should be determined by one and only one factor: how much that person has produced. By definition, this is not capitalism because the power to decide who gets how much of the wealth is no longer being made by the owners.

The fact is that free markets cannot exist under capitalism because a few of the owners, largely by random selection, will become more powerful and will eliminate competition using that power. This can be done by bribing the government (lobbying), writing legislation and handing it to senators to sign, using laws that only the big and rich can take advantage of, manipulating markets, threatening other businesses that use competitor's products (like Microsoft did), dis-empowering labor through laws, immigration policy, and outsourcing. Put simply, the owners don't like free markets because rigged markets are far more profitable.

You are pretending that capitalism is everything it's not: commerce, private ownership of personal goods, banking, trade, and free markets. Capitalism is a very specific economic mechanism that hands over all power to a small minority called owners who then use that power to ensure that they never have to do any real work while they get the lion's share of other people's economic productivity. A better economic system would reward wealth creation, not wealth ownership. The very root of the word capitalism is "capital" as in money, not productivity. If you are going to defend an economic system, you should at least know what it is.

On simple idea could eliminate the majority of economic problems our country endorse. Simply tie wealth acquisition to wealth creation, not exploitation. Capitalism rewards one and only one thing, bargaining power. My economic system rewards wealth creation. If you need it to have a name, let's call it Americanism.

Dan8267 says

That's exactly what capitalism is. Someone with political connection obtained the mineral rights to some land for a tiny fraction of their value. Miners extract the minerals for a tiny percentage of their wealth creation. Meanwhile the owner gets rich doing no work.

Capitalism is private ownership of the means of production by a few individual and mass numbers of workers who do not own the fruits of their labor. The owners get to distribute the wealth created by the workers however they see fit, and they always see fit to give the actual wealth producers as little as they can get away with. The owners cut the pie and then decides who gets what piece, while the workers till the land, harvest the crops, and bake the pie. It's a stupid system and it's not efficient.

That's communist logic. What land does Google and Apple have?
As for those workers who till the land and work in mines, do you think it matters what the company makes as long as the workers get their fair wages? American workers are among the highest paid in the world.
You are such a phony.

Dan8267 says

The fact that you think all of economics can be reduced to a single dimension demonstrates grave misunderstanding and lack of thought on the subject. There are literally an infinite number of ways economic systems can be built. One alternative is to take away the power of owners to decide pay. A person's total income, both wage and benefits if any, should be determined by one and only one factor: how much that person has produced. By definition, this is not capitalism because the power to decide who gets how much of the wealth is no longer being made by the owners.

ROFL. The owners don't decide the wages. Free markets do. That's Capitalism.
Now tell me why the poor downtrodden exploited American worker makes so much more than the worker in Venezuela where the oil companies are owned by the government.

Strategist, do you think that I have the right to emit unlimited pollution regardless of the effect that I have on my neighbors?

Booger says

You forgot option #3, which is to shut down the farm, and others just like it to "save the environment". The pork previously produced by these farms would then be imported from filthy third world countries that have absolutely no pollution controls or labor laws.

Not likely. The polluter in question is already owned by a Chinese company. They bought Smithfield to insure a pork supply for China.

The solution is to make the farms compensate their neighbors using market based mechanisms to value the damage. Economists have already looked at this in several ways.

YesYNot says

Strategist, do you think that I have the right to emit unlimited pollution regardless of the effect that I have on my neighbors?

You do not have that right. That is why we have laws that says you can't, and if you do, you are likely to get sued.

Don't like Capitalism because of your misguided views, than move in with Kim Un in North Korea and enjoy your communism Dan.

Strategist says

You do not have that right.

What about hog farmers? Is there a limit to how much they should get to pollute?

Strategist says

Capitalism is private ownership of the means of production by a few individual and mass numbers of workers who do not own the fruits of their labor. The owners get to distribute the wealth created by the workers however they see fit, and they always see fit to give the actual wealth producers as little as they can get away with. The owners cut the pie and then decides who gets what piece, while the workers till the land, harvest the crops, and bake the pie. It's a stupid system and it's not efficient.

The dumb "owners" in America decided to pay their workers more than anyone else in the world. LOL.
This garbage is straight out of Karl Marx. Dan, you are a Marxist, plain and simple.

FortWayne says

Don't like Capitalism because of your misguided views, than move in with Kim Un in North Korea and enjoy your communism Dan.

And take Jazz with you.