patrick.net

PeopleUnited says

But more to the point, what is the source of violence and hate Dan? Answer that and you will be demonstrating wisdom.

Religion and God is the source of virtually all violence.

FP says

Blind beliefs, what religions are about, predispose towards tribalism, fanaticism, and enable manipulation. The degree to which they are able to influence people depend on the circumstances - education of the population, economic and political situation, etc. However, given the "right" conditions, they incite and justify horrible acts.

Right now, a large part of the muslim world lives in such conditions - lack of education, poverty, overpopulation, fail states, foreign interventions, aggressions and occupations. It is therefore not surprising that right now muslims are the perpetrators of horrific acts incited by religion. However, if we look into the not too distant past, there are plenty of instances of other religious groups conducting atrocities. So the specifics of the muslim religion alone cannot explain the terrorist acts today.

If people adhering to other religions are put into similar circumstances (including educational lever, religiousness, etc), I expect ...

Ah the nature vs. nuture argument. Sorry FP, your view is overly simplistic and doesn't pass the sniff test. As others have pointed out, Islamic terrorists come from diverse socieoconomic backgrounds. But they all have one thing in common, they believe the lies of Islam. Jesus on the other hand taught his followers to be happy with food and clothing, and to turn the other cheek when they are mistreated.

That is not to say that Islamic religion is the only source of lies. However, it is a source of lies that is motivating a rapidly growing number of cowards to attack soft targets around the world. Islam is the complete opposite of freedom, Islam is slavery.

If religion is man made as you say therefore man is the source of all violence, not religion. That's just following your logic.

Strategist says

PeopleUnited says

But more to the point, what is the source of violence and hate Dan? Answer that and you will be demonstrating wisdom.

Religion and God is the source of virtually all violence.

Strategist says

PeopleUnited says

You are wrong again. When a person says there is no God, they are implying there is no God to which they are accountable.

Hello?Lets ask the person who says "there is no God" like me to clarify. When I say there is no God, I mean there is no God. That he does not exist, never did and never will. That the belief in God is the world's greatest myth. God, Devil, tooth fairy, Santa claus, Bogey Man, all have one thing in common......they do not exist.

Got it?

When you say there is no God, you are not only denying His existence, you are also denying His word. But correct me if I am wrong. Are you changing your stripes Stragegist? Am I wrong in assuming you don't believe in accountability to God for your sins?

FortWayne says

If religion is man made as you say therefore man is the source of all violence, not religion. That's just following your logic.

Basically yes.
Voltaire....."Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

Voltaire Quotes - BrainyQuote
https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/v/voltaire.html
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit ...

PeopleUnited says

When you say there is no God, you are not only denying His existence, you are also denying His word. But correct me if I am wrong. Are you changing your stripes Stragegist? Am I wrong in assuming you don't believe in accountability to God for your sins?

If i don't believe in God, I cannot believe in accountability to the nonexistent character you call God.

I think there can be morality without God. You just have to see that other people suffer like you yourself do, that they are really very similar to you.

How do you suppose the Jews outlived virtually every civilization despite massive persecution and thrived producing massive wealth and contributions to science, literature, culture, economics.........at a much higher per capita than any civilization on earth? Where did the Hittites go? Babylonians? Minoans? Romans? Assyrians? Incas? Aztecs? Egyptians? The Jews outlasted them all!

Provided it was not supernatural forces by God or a master plan protecting the Jews for thousands of years. Can't one argue that it was the Jewish religious belief system and lifestyle that has allowed them to outlast everyone else for thousands of years? So accepting the non-supernatural explanation - doesn't that clearly point out that not all religions are the same and that some religious belief (particularly the Jewish faith) is a major asset for some people?

socal2 says

How do you suppose the Jews outlived virtually every civilization despite massive persecution and thrived producing massive wealth and contributions to science, literature, culture, economics.........at a much higher per capita than any civilization on earth? Where did the Hittites go? Babylonians? Minoans? Romans? Assyrians? Incas? Aztecs? Egyptians? The Jews outlasted them all!

Provided it was not supernatural forces by God or a master plan protecting the Jews for thousands of years. Can't one argue that it was the Jewish religious belief system and lifestyle that has allowed them to outlast everyone else for thousands of years? So accepting the non-supernatural explanation - doesn't that clearly point out that not all religions are the same and that some religious belief (particularly the Jewish faith) is a major asset for some people?

New Poll Shows Atheism on Rise, With Jews Found to Be Least Religious
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/new-poll-shows-atheism-on-rise-with-jews-found-to-be-least-religious-1.459477

Don't know if this is some guy taking the piss, or actual Muslima.

Look closely at her Burka below:

rando says

I think there can be morality without God.

Of course. Morality is rooted in evolution. Animals exhibit traits of morality too.

FP says

rando says

I think there can be morality without God.

Of course. Morality is rooted in evolution. Animals exhibit traits of morality too.

Morality cannot be achieved with God/Religion. Just look at the morals in the holy books of the major religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Hinduism. They are sickening. They do not meet my moral standards.
I did not mention Islam, because it's a fucking cult.

socal2 says

Where did the Hittites go? Babylonians? Minoans? Romans? Assyrians? Incas? Aztecs? Egyptians? The Jews outlasted them all!

Not sure about the Hittites, but many of the others are still around in some religious form.

The Babylonians became Orthodox Christian and now call themselves Chaldean.
Minoans are Greek Orthodox now and not much different from other Greeks I think.
Romans became Italian. We're using the Latin alphabet right now, not dead. All Catholic churches are little remnant outposts of the Roman Empire, and the church is still run from Rome.
Assyrians are still a distinct group, also Orthodox Christian.
Incas are still there. 9 million people still speak Quechua. Dunno if they still have any native religion.
Aztecs were very Hispanified and Catholic, and so their distinct identity is gone.
The original Egyptians are now the Coptic Christians of Egypt, and have managed to hang on despite Islam's chipping away at them for a thousand years.

Maybe the Jews are some of the least changed people, but they are not exactly the same as in ancient times either.

It does seem to be true that having an exclusive ethnic religion helps preserve identity, as opposed to being Catholic or Muslim, which think of themselves as universal and not particular to any one group. Makes for less of a barrier to intermarriage and so starts to blur identities.

Strategist says

Just look at the morals in the holy books of the major religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Hinduism. They are sickening. They do not meet my moral standards.

The 10 Commandments are really "sickening" to you? Especially these?

- Honor thy father and mother?
- Thow shall not kill?
- Thow shall not commit adultery?
- Thow shall not steal?
- Thow shall not bear false witness?
- Thow shall not covet they neighbor's spouse or possessions?

How about the Golden Rule? Do unto others???

Those are pretty fundamental compared to other obscure references in the Old and New Testament. And considering they are nearly 4000 years old, I think it holds up pretty well.

The moral standards of American law on segregation just 50 years ago was pretty sickening. Let alone America's laws on slavery before it. I suspect most of us 50 years from now will consider the morality around America's abortion laws as pretty sickening too.

socal2 says

The 10 Commandments are really "sickening" to you? Especially these?

- Honor thy father and mother?

- Thow shall not kill?

- Thow shall not commit adultery?

- Thow shall not steal?

- Thow shall not bear false witness?

- Thow shall not covet they neighbor's spouse or possessions?

You need a book to tell you all that? You can't figure that out for yourself? It's common sense.
You need religion to tell you the following disgusting crap:
The Bible: "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with
him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." 1

http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm_bibl.htm

PeopleUnited says

You are wrong again. When a person says there is no God, they are implying there is no God to which they are accountable.

No. You're wrong. When I say there is no god, I mean there is no god. A person is immorally accountable for immoral actions. You don't need some supernatural sky daddy to motivate you to not do evil, unless you are fucking evil. Tell me, is the only thing keeping you from killing babies is the belief in your false god? If so, you are sick.

PeopleUnited says

Therefore there is no reason to fear comitting genocide, waging selfish wars, burning gays/witches at the stake or any number of attrocities, because there is no higher authority to hold you accountable for your wrongdoing.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. I can think of lots of reasons not to commit genocide or start wars that have nothing to do with fairy-tales about supernatural beings.

I guess you would murder babies for shits and giggles if you didn't believe in god, but that just means your evil and crazy, not that you are right about there being a god.

PeopleUnited says

On the other hand, someone who truly fears God would not deliberately and habitually do evil because they would know that God will not let their evil go unpunished.

Your statement is empirically false. Just look at 90% of Christian history. Look at the torture, rape, and murder committed in the name of Christ. Hell, look at ISIS today. They believe in your god, the god of Abraham, and yet they commit atrocities all the time. Don't let reality get in the way of your fantasies.

PeopleUnited says

That is not my argument. But there is an upside to fearing God, because when you fear God you begin to have wisdom.

Only a fool thinks that fear is wisdom.

FortWayne says

If religion is man made as you say therefore man is the source of all violence, not religion. That's just following your logic.

Fort Wayne, don't even try to do logic. You'll sprain something.

Religion is, of course, man made. However, Strategist -- and damn you for making me defend him -- said virtually all, not all, violence. Obviously lions commit violent acts that have nothing to do with man.

Hm, I see some opportunity for entertainment while waiting for my kids to do the geometry problems I gave them.

Let's try this:

Hey socal2, are you OK?

Strategist says

socal2 says

The 10 Commandments are really "sickening" to you? Especially these?

- Honor thy father and mother?


- Thow shall not kill?


- Thow shall not commit adultery?


- Thow shall not steal?


- Thow shall not bear false witness?


- Thow shall not covet they neighbor's spouse or possessions?

You need a book to tell you all that? You can't figure that out for yourself? It's common sense.

You need religion to tell you the following disgusting crap:

The Bible: "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with

him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." 1

http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm_bibl.htm

Strategist, there is a lot of people who do need that to be the basis of morality. It really is not common sense. A child isn't born with any of that. Morality is taught, and if we don't have faith that preaches that, well, we won't have a moral society.

ISIS is raising kids with hatred toward America, and when they grow up their common sense will be "death to America". It'll be really rough if they start winning.

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

You are wrong again. When a person says there is no God, they are implying there is no God to which they are accountable.

No. You're wrong. When I say there is no god, I mean there is no god.

He is implying that atheists believe in God. I have heard of a lot of silly nonsense that comes from believers, but this has got to be the most bizarre.

PeopleUnited says

When you say there is no God, you are not only denying His existence, you are also denying His word.

I'll gladly deny your false god's word. I don't believe in murdering babies (1 Samuel 15:3, Psalms 135:8 & 136:10, Psalms 137:9).

I don't believe in killing children either.
Leviticus 20:9
Judges 11:30-40
Psalms 137:8-9
2 Kings 6:28-29
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Judges 19:24-29
Exodus 12:29
Exodus 20:9-10
2 Kings 2:23-24
Leviticus 26:30
1 Samuel 15:11-18
I Kings 16:34
Isaiah 13:15-18
Jeremiah 11:22-23
Jeremiah 19:7-9
Lamentations 2:20-22

I also don't believe in raping women.
Isaiah 13:15-18
Judges 21:10-24
Numbers 31:7-18
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Deuteronomy 22:23-24
2 Samuel 12:11-14
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Judges 5:30
Exodus 21:7-11
Zechariah 14:1-2

And I don't believe in slavery.
Leviticus 25:44-46
Exodus 21:20-21
Ephesians 6:5
1 Timothy 6:1-2
Luke 12:47-48

Your god is false, but he is also fucking evil, and so is his word. No wonder Muslims worship him.

FortWayne says

Strategist, there is a lot of people who do need that to be the basis of morality. It really is not common sense. A child isn't born with any of that. Morality is taught, and if we don't have faith that preaches that, well, we won't have a moral society.

Are you telling me not murdering someone can only be taught by religion?

Atheists Now Make Up 0.1% of the Federal Prison Population
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/08/21/atheists-now-make-up-0-1-of-the-federal-prison-population/

FP says

Hey socal2, are you OK?

I am concerned that you are trying too hard

Bomber's childhood friend became a gang rapist: Pal is in jail for luring a girl, 16, into hotel room and raping her with a mob of attackers

Manchester bomber Salman Abedi used to hang around with Bilal Ahmed
Ahmed is now serving nine-year prison sentence for gang raping a schoolgirl, 16
He and two others jailed for a total of 31 years after all being convicted of rape
Ahmed and Salman Abedi used to hang out on their South Manchester estates

The rape of course was not put down to terrorism, just "Crime".
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4539572/Manchester-bomber-friend-jail-gang-raping-girl-16.html

‘It is also important to note that Hashem left the UK on April 16 and said he was in constant contact with his brother, the executor of the operation.’

Last night it emerged that the father of the British-born boys has publicly voiced his support for an extremist group fighting in Syria.

He posted photos of soldiers clad in black uniforms from the Al-Nusra Front, which was the official Syrian branch of Al Qaeda until it broke up last July, on his Facebook page five years ago. Underneath the photo, he wrote: ‘Victorious against the infidels... say Amen!’

Ramadan, a former airport security worker in the UK, also published a picture of Hashem holding a machine gun while wearing a Nike T-shirt and combat trousers. Underneath the picture he wrote: ‘The lion Hashem... is training.’

And in another post, he incited his followers to rise up against soldiers who served under former dictator Muammar Gaddafi.

Last night a former Libyan security official claimed the father had been a member of a former Al Qaeda-backed group in Libya.

According to the Associated Press news agency, ex-Libyan security official Abdel-Basit Haroun said he personally knew Ramadan, and that he had been a member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) in the 1990s. The group had links to Al Qaeda.

Although the LIFG has since disbanded, Mr Haroun alleged the father belonged to the Salafi Jihadi movement, the most extreme sect of Salafism and from which Al Qaeda and the Islamic State group hail.

Is it common sense to allow people to travel and back forth from countries experiencing Civil War where religious extremists feature greatly?

Takeaway: State security personnel are more interested in keeping tabs on people than keeping them from terrorizing.

Many Libyans were allowed to flee to the UK - Manchester has the largest contingent - in the 90s to escape "Persecution" by Ghaddafyi. Anybody who wanted "Change" (ie reimposition of Shari'a Law) was a "Regime Target". Most of them were members of the Libyan Islamic Fighters Group, which was instrumental in the overthrow of Ghaddfyi. One of their leaders even became head of the Military Council, the forerunner of the current Government.
https://www.channel4.com/news/the-teenage-libyan-rebel-from-manchester

Again, politicians and media claim "Moderate Rebels" and imply they are freedom fighters against a Tyrant, when they really are largely or even wholly Islamist Jihadis.

The UK is allowing thousands of ISIS Volunteers and "Jihadi Wives" back, even though they know where they are going. Meanwhile, Kurdish UK citizens are arrested the moment they book a ticket to fight with the Peshmurga. WTF is going on?

www.youtube.com/embed/6eHF1vZ1sJc

One final point:

There are 480 Muslims in the army out of an overall strength of 88,500 – 0.54%, an increase from 300 in 2008. Muslims comprise about 4.4% of the UK population according to the 2011 census.

The Number of British Citizens joining ISIS alone in Syria (not counting Iraq, Libya, etc. or those fighting with Al Qaeda or other Jihadi Groups) currently is 760. That's the amount the UK Government knows about, and just those currently there, not who have returned.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/29/iraq-and-syria-how-many-foreign-fighters-are-fighting-for-isil/

Keep in mind the Muslim Population in Britain has far, far more young people than the general British Population demographically.

480 in the Army; 760 known to be currently volunteering with ISIS.

Holy Shit.

FP says

FP says

Hey socal2, are you OK?

I am concerned that you are trying too hard

You are trying to troll, and failing, as when you called me a "monkey" because I demolished one of your misleading arguments. Either way, your feeble attempts to troll people, and your motivation for doing so, are off topic.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

The Number of British Citizens joining ISIS alone in Syria (not counting Iraq, Libya, etc. or those fighting with Al Qaeda or other Jihadi Groups) currently is 760.

Hopefully they mean "former" British citizens.

Joining ISIS should result in immediate revocation of citizenship and deportation of the entire extended family of the terrorist.

curious2 says

FP says

FP says

Hey socal2, are you OK?

I am concerned that you are trying too hard

You are trying to troll, and failing, as when you called me a "monkey" because I demolished one of your misleading arguments. Either way, your feeble attempts to troll people, and your motivation for doing so, are off topic.

I am impressed by your abilities.

What do you think about socal2's thinking - is he trying too hard?

rando says

Joining ISIS should result in immediate revocation of citizenship.

The rich would join ISIS for a day as "medics" in order to not have to pay taxes again.

Strategist says

FortWayne says

Strategist, there is a lot of people who do need that to be the basis of morality. It really is not common sense. A child isn't born with any of that. Morality is taught, and if we don't have faith that preaches that, well, we won't have a moral society.

Are you telling me not murdering someone can only be taught by religion?

Atheists Now Make Up 0.1% of the Federal Prison Population

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/08/21/atheists-now-make-up-0-1-of-the-federal-prison-population/

It is taught by society. Kids learn through observation. Atheist or not, you are growing, you are observing, and that's how we all learn. In America we are taught from day one to respect others and love thy neighbor. In ISIS territories they are taught to murder us, you probably seen that report of how that propaganda works out there. And that's what we all get.

It is why religion (Christianity) is so important, it makes for a better society. It teaches love and forgiveness, it teaches second chances. A true "American" value.

Strategist just in case here it is:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/isis-teaches-children-behead-training-camps/story?id=25303940
(ISIS teaches kids to murder and hate us) And that's just one report showing ISIS glorifying murder of America, there are many more.

FP says

What do you think about socal2's thinking - is he trying too hard?

Dude - I wish you would try a little harder to think instead of snark. Smugly is not a good look. Especially if you are ignorant.

Just a few days ago you were displaying your lack of thinking for all to see as you really didn't seem to know that Catholics not only believe and teach evolution, but Catholic priests and monks were at the forefront of evolutionary research.

All of a sudden, Trump's travel ban to evaluate the safety of immigrant vetting doesn't seem far out of left field.

Yep. His whole family has been back and forth to Libya.

BTW, the reason his dad was allowed to come into the UK to begin with was as an "Oppressed Refugee" because of his Extreme Islamism which was being oppressed by Ghaddafyi.

socal2 says

Dude - I wish you would try a little harder to think instead of snark

Never mind me. I have a propensity for thinking without trying hard. I am concerned for those who stain themselves doing it. Especially when they suffer from diarrhea. So take it easy.

FortWayne says

It teaches love and forgiveness, it teaches second chances.

Bullshit. The most hateful, hang them high assholes in our society are the most fervent religious.

Furthermore, there is nothing necessary or even useful in religion for teaching empathy, compassion, or forgiveness. This things can easily be taught with zero supernatural bullshit, zero rewriting of history, and zero mythology.

In fact, true morality can only be taught in the absence of religion. If you behave a certain way solely because it's in your best interests because some asshole sky daddy will have you tortured forever if you don't, then it's not morality, but only fear. The religious cannot distinguish between morality and fear.

FP says

I have a propensity for thinking without trying hard.

I think you have made that abundantly clear with your contributions FP.

It's OK to try a little harder - it won't hurt you.