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curious2
2017 May 23, 7:56pm
History belongs to those who bother to show up.
I have to agree with that. You have made some good points.
Marcus tried to make some of the same points, but stumbled into false and illogical absolutes and emotional ad hominem nonsense.
One question though: how have all other species aside from humans survived without religion? You don't see most bears paying a subset of bears to opine about imaginary deities. You don't even see other primates doing that. If religion is essential to our success, how did our pre-human ancestors manage to succeed without it?
Perhaps when you criticize atheism, you're really trying to criticize modern western materialism, which arrived in Russia amid the collapse of Soviet communism.
Blind beliefs, what religions are about, predispose towards tribalism, fanaticism, and enable manipulation. The degree to which they are able to influence people depend on the circumstances - education of the population, economic and political situation, etc. However, given the "right" conditions, they incite and justify horrible acts.
Right now, a large part of the muslim world lives in such conditions - lack of education, poverty, overpopulation, fail states, foreign interventions, aggressions and occupations. It is therefore not surprising that right now muslims are the perpetrators of horrific acts incited by religion. However, if we look into the not too distant past, there are plenty of instances of other religious groups conducting atrocities. So the specifics of the muslim religion alone cannot explain the terrorist acts today.
If people adhering to other religions are put into similar circumstances (including educational lever, religiousness, etc), I expect that they will also turn to violence. Maybe the degree of savagery or the methods of killing will be different, but these are details. The mere existence/influence of religion and the other factors mentioned above are primary and more important than the exact flavor or religion. You cannot change the religion and reduce its influence before educating people and improving their way of life.
Strategist
2017 May 23, 8:09pm
If religion is essential to our success, how did our pre-human ancestors manage to succeed without it?
They don't believe we had pre-human ancestors. They think we did not evolve, and the earth is only 6,000 years old.
I once read....."God was a primitive means of explaining the unknown" Yes, we humans started to think then, but we could only come up with primitive theories called God and religion due to our limited knowledge. We know that is nonsense today, but clearly we have not advanced enough to know where everything came from.
They don't believe we had pre-human ancestors. They think we did not evolve, and the earth is only 6,000 years old.
Catholics believe in evolution. Jews believe in evolution. Do you not know this?
One question though: how have all other species aside from humans survived without religion? You don't see most bears paying a subset of bears to opine about imaginary deities. You don't even see other primates doing that. If religion is essential to our success, how did our pre-human ancestors manage to succeed without it?
Our pre-human ancestors didn't succeed. They are all extinct.
Bears (and many other nuisance species like great white sharks) would be extinct if humans didn't purposefully choose to conserve them at the expense of risking our own lives.
Humans are at the absolute top of all species. Nothing else comes close. What other species create art, music..........and organized religion?
Patrick
2017 May 23, 8:28pm
This is nonsense. I thought we discussed this before? The Saudis publicly and privately didn't want Saddam toppled because they knew the Shia majority would take over in Iraq and give Iran more influence.......as they most certainly did.
OK, I've read about it and you're right. The Saudis feared an Iraqi invasion, but they also feared the breakup of Iraq and a resulting Shia-dominated part, which has in fact happened. And so they did not support the US invasion of Iraq.
The US ignored Saudi involvement in 9/11 and attacked Iraq simply because the excuse of 9/11 gave them the opportunity. Couldn't have Saddam threatening to price oil in Euros, because that would put the dollar under threat.
It does look like Bandar was involved in planning 9/11, though I still don't understand why exactly.
curious2
2017 May 23, 8:31pm
You cannot change the religion and reduce its influence before educating people and improving their way of life.
That's a false absolute, and it doesn't explain the radical disparities between Muslim countries and other countries that have similar poverty. Muslims are vastly more likely to commit terrorism than similarly poor people of any other religion. And, again, among Muslims, education and wealth increase the risk of terrorism; I don't know how many times I have to keep repeating that before it gets through. Think of OBL with his $10 million and university degree: that's a lot of education and improvement to deliver, only to see it diverted to jihad.
Our pre-human ancestors didn't succeed. They are all extinct.
Bears (and many other nuisance species like great white sharks) would be extinct if humans didn't purposefully choose to conserve them....
Neanderthals lived more than twice as long as humans have lived. Other species have been around much longer, and continue into the present, and may yet outlive us. The fact humans have exterminated many other species is not exactly an endorsement of religion. Human scientists deserve credit for exterminating smallpox, but most scientists are atheists or agnostic; exterminating many other species was a self-defeating blunder.
What other species create art, music..........and organized religion?
I'm delighted to learn that you appreciate Lady Gaga, but are you saying there were no successful civilizations before she arrived? I'm a fan, but even I survived for years before first hearing her name, and back then I did not even realize that she was essential. Today, yes, of course. And that's the issue with calling something essential: without it, what would have arisen instead?
FortWayne
2017 May 23, 8:44pm
Right now, a large part of the muslim world lives in such conditions - lack of education, poverty, overpopulation, fail states, foreign interventions, aggressions and occupations. It is therefore not surprising that right now muslims are the perpetrators of horrific acts incited by religion. However, if we look into the not too distant past, there are plenty of instances of other religious groups conducting atrocities. So the specifics of the muslim religion alone cannot explain the terrorist acts today.
FP, no one cares about past history. Right now there is a whole lot of muslim terrorists who wish death upon us all. ISIS was started under that premise. And the only reason those martyr occasions are rare is because they are fighting in the middle east, and can't afford to create more death in our country.
Christianity = love and forgiveness.
Islam (the popular ISIS verion) = murder everyone else.
That's no comparison today. Expecting those people to stop attempting to kill us is foolishly naive. Their business model and faith depends on murdering us.
marcus
2017 May 23, 8:51pm
They don't believe we had pre-human ancestors. They think we did not evolve, and the earth is only 6,000 years old.
You see if you need to believe this, what does it say about how secure you are in your beliefs ?
You could ask 100 Catholic priests, 200 protestant ministers (not fundies), i.e Episcopalian, Presbitarian, Lutheran, etc, 100 Rabbis and possibly not find a single one that believes this.
Kinda sad that you need to lie about what being religious means, in order to justify not believing. I don't particularly believe myself, but I believe there may be value in religion, an I admire some people who have faith. And I don't have any need to lie about what modern non fundamentalist religion is.
Strategist
2017 May 23, 9:00pm
Kinda sad that you need to lie about what being religious means, in order to justify not believing. I don't particularly believe myself, but I believe there may be value in religion, an I admire some people who have faith. And I don't have any need to lie about what modern non fundamentalist religion is.
Yes, there can be value in religion at times, but that does not negate the fact that religion is the number one cause of wars, human rights abuse, and suppression of progress.
Islam is the ultimate proof.
Neanderthals lived more than twice as long as humans have lived. Other species have been around much longer, and continue into the present, and may yet outlive us.
Of course. Cockroaches will probably outlive everything. There are millions of little microscopic organisms (and plants) that have been around forever that you and I don't even know about, but we wouldn't consider them advanced life.
None of them are writing music.
Human scientists deserve credit for exterminating smallpox, but most scientists are atheists or agnostic; exterminating many other species was a self-defeating blunder.
My great uncle was a Catholic Jesuit Priest and a published geneticist long before Vatican II. My wife's friend who is staying with us this week is an ER doctor and a devout orthodox Jew and has 3 little kids and counting. I dare say that both of them can run circles around us in terms of scientific thought and accomplishment, yet their devout beliefs in God isn't holding them back. In fact, I dare say their devout religious beliefs helped them thrive. My wife's Dr. friend staying with us faced massive adversity early in life and she attributes her religious beliefs helping her get through it and her success in adulthood. And since she is bothering to have children who will be well educated and loved, chances are the human species will continue to advance and be better off for it.
it doesn't explain the radical disparities between Muslim countries and other countries that have similar poverty
poverty is not the only factor that maters; I listed several other things
FP, no one cares about past history.
Past history was mentioned and is relevant in the context of my discussion Patrick. You obviously did not understand.
Christianity = love and forgiveness.
Good. Then as a christian person, what do you do to stop your government (made of christians as well) to stop killing thousands of people abroad?
Let me guess - you put your head in the sand and deny it's happening.
FortWayne
2017 May 23, 9:14pm
Catholics believe in evolution.
how come? - it contradicts their book of magic
You know nothing about Christianity.
FortWayne
2017 May 23, 9:17pm
Christianity = love and forgiveness.
Good. Then as a christian person, what do you do to stop your government (made of christians as well) to stop killing thousands of people abroad?
Let me guess - you put your head in the sand and deny it's happening.
We Christians aren't the problem here. You are just clueless about everything around you man. They want us dead, it's not for us to surrender our country to them and let them murder everyone they can.
FortWayne
2017 May 23, 9:17pm
You know nothing about Christianity.
What? There is a new interpretation?
No, you just don't know anything.
Strategist
2017 May 23, 9:18pm
My great uncle was a Catholic Jesuit Priest and a published geneticist long before Vatican II. My wife's friend who is staying with us this week is an ER doctor and a devout orthodox Jew and has 3 little kids and counting. I dare say that both of them can run circles around us in terms of scientific thought and accomplishment, yet their devout beliefs in God isn't holding them back. In fact, I dare say their devout religious beliefs helped them thrive. My wife's Dr. friend staying with us faced massive adversity early in life and she attributes her religious beliefs helping her get through it and her success in adulthood. And since she is bothering to have children who will be well educated and loved, chances are the human species will continue to advance and be better off for it.
The human species would be better off simply by educating every single person on the planet. It's the best way of getting the population to move away from religion, and towards science.
By the way the Bible preaches creationism, not evolution. To claim Catholics believe in evolution is rather silly. I would question the talents of any Medical Doctor who does not believe in evolution.
Research clearly demonstrates that atheists are more intelligent, more educated, invent the most, and have done more for the progress of mankind than people who believe in silly religious fairy tales.
FortWayne
2017 May 23, 9:22pm
The human species would be better off simply by educating every single person on the planet. It's the best way of getting the population to move away from religion, and towards science.
By the way the Bible preaches creationism, not evolution.
Religion and science are not opposite Strategist. They compliment each other. Wisdom of human kind is written into the bible. Science doesn't teach that, and it's the most important lesson.
As far as evolution / creationism... evolution doesn't have any proof of how everything was made. Big bang theory doesn't work, because something can't be created out of nothing, it conflicts with science.
Strategist
2017 May 23, 9:22pm
Good. Then as a christian person, what do you do to stop your government (made of christians as well) to stop killing thousands of people abroad?
Let me guess - you put your head in the sand and deny it's happening.
Shouldn't you be asking that to the violent followers of Islam? You know, those who target babies, auction off 9 year olds as sex slaves, and slaughter anyone who disagrees with them?
No, you just don't know anything.
How can I respond to such a strong argument. You win.
Dan8267
2017 May 23, 9:26pm
Religion and science are not opposite Strategist. They compliment each other.
That's a load of crap. Science is based on evidence. Religion is based on faith, the rejection of evidence. The are antithetical world views.
Strategist
2017 May 23, 9:27pm
Wisdom of human kind is written into the bible. Science doesn't teach that, and it's the most important lesson.
That i agree.
As far as evolution / creationism... evolution doesn't have any proof of how everything was made. Big bang theory doesn't work, because something can't be created out of nothing, it conflicts with science.
Science has no idea how everything was made. One day it might. Religion, however, has no idea of how everything was made either, and never will.
Dan8267
2017 May 23, 9:27pm
Just remember, every time ISIS kills somebody, you can thank George W. Bush for its rise to power. This is the consequence of his illegal war. It left a power vacuum that ISIS filled.
Shouldn't you be asking that to the violent followers of Islam?
Here everybody is asking them. I am asking the questions that nobody is asking. That what smart people do. We leave the easy stuff to the mediocre.
By the way the Bible preaches creationism, not evolution. To claim Catholics believe in evolution is rather silly.
Good grief.
"Early contributions to the development of evolutionary theory were made by Catholic scientists such as Jean-Baptiste Lamarck and the Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel. For nearly a century, the papacy offered no authoritative pronouncement on Darwin's theories. In the 1950 encyclical Humani generis, Pope Pius XII confirmed that there is no intrinsic conflict between Christianity and the theory of evolution,"
"Catholic schools in the United States and other countries teach evolution as part of their science curriculum."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Catholic_Church
Again - do you guys really have no clue about this stuff? Is your understanding of Christianity (and Judaism) really this superficial?
Wisdom of human kind is written into the bible.
Some wisdom and a lot of nonsense. I learned more wisdom about human kind from the novels of, say, Honoré de Balzac.
Strategist
2017 May 23, 9:40pm
I am asking the questions that nobody is asking. That what smart people do. We leave the easy stuff to the mediocre.
We already have the answers to the questions you keep asking. That is why nobody else is asking them. If you were really smart, you would have got that by now.
Strategist
2017 May 23, 9:42pm
Just remember, every time ISIS kills somebody, you can thank George W. Bush for its rise to power. This is the consequence of his illegal war. It left a power vacuum that ISIS filled.
Which Obama watched it rise to power, while he played golf.
FortWayne
2017 May 23, 9:43pm
Science has no idea how everything was made. One day it might. Religion, however, has no idea of how everything was made either, and never will.
I think you are putting too much faith in science on this one :)
Strategist
2017 May 23, 9:46pm
By the way the Bible preaches creationism, not evolution. To claim Catholics believe in evolution is rather silly.
Good grief.
"Early contributions to the development of evolutionary theory were made by Catholic scientists such as Jean-Baptiste Lamarck and the Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel. For nearly a century, the papacy offered no authoritative pronouncement on Darwin's theories. In the 1950 encyclical Humani generis, Pope Pius XII confirmed that there is no intrinsic conflict between Christianity and the theory of evolution,"
"Catholic schools in the United States and other countries teach evolution as part of their science curriculum."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Catholic_ChurchAgain - do you guys really have no clue about ...
The earth is 6,000 years old as per the Bible. You cannot believe in a 6,000 year old earth and evolution at the same time.
Dan8267
2017 May 23, 9:51pm
Which Obama watched it rise to power, while he played golf.
Bush is still far worse on this one because he created the problem.
Dan8267
2017 May 23, 9:53pm
I think you are putting too much faith in science on this one
Faith in science, the type of oxymoronic thinking that dominates religion. Science works empirically. Planes fly. Medications work. We walked on the moon. You are writing stuff on a world-wide network of electronic computing devices. Science is not based on faith. It's based on results.
Strategist
2017 May 23, 10:08pm
Science has no idea how everything was made. One day it might. Religion, however, has no idea of how everything was made either, and never will.
I think you are putting too much faith in science on this one :)
No. I'm admitting science does not know everything. We have barely scratched the surface of science.
Aren't you putting too much faith in a religion that claims to know everything, even though it has been repeatedly proven wrong?
The earth is 6,000 years old as per the Bible. You cannot believe in a 6,000 year old earth and evolution at the same time.
Yet devout Catholics and Jews (along with other Christian denominations like Lutherans, Episcopalians and Protestants) have managed to believe (and even teach) evolution for years.
How does that work?
Catholic catechism includes Man's reason and logic as part of it's dogma. Catholic dogma "evolves" as Man's understanding of the universe advances. Judaism is the same way. That is why there are so many Catholic and Jewish scientists and doctors - there is no conflict. It is also why Christianity and Judaism have been so compatible and successful under secular government as they also believe in pluralism. It is also why Judaism has outlasted virtually every other civilization and ideology on the planet despite massive historic persecution.
Islam is totally different in that it does not accept man's reason and logic or secular rule - hence the reason why it is so fucked up and violent.
I would think these things were obviously apparent.
Yet devout Catholics and Jews (along with other Christian denominations like Lutherans, Episcopalians and Protestants) have managed to believe (and even teach) evolution for years.
How does that work?
by way of brain damage
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