patrick.net

This is nonsense. I thought we discussed this before? The Saudis publicly and privately didn't want Saddam toppled because they knew the Shia majority would take over in Iraq and give Iran more influence.......as they most certainly did.

OK, I've read about it and you're right. The Saudis feared an Iraqi invasion, but they also feared the breakup of Iraq and a resulting Shia-dominated part, which has in fact happened. And so they did not support the US invasion of Iraq.

The US ignored Saudi involvement in 9/11 and attacked Iraq simply because the excuse of 9/11 gave them the opportunity. Couldn't have Saddam threatening to price oil in Euros, because that would put the dollar under threat.

It does look like Bandar was involved in planning 9/11, though I still don't understand why exactly.

237

curious2 2017 May 23, 8:31pm

You cannot change the religion and reduce its influence before educating people and improving their way of life.

That's a false absolute, and it doesn't explain the radical disparities between Muslim countries and other countries that have similar poverty. Muslims are vastly more likely to commit terrorism than similarly poor people of any other religion. And, again, among Muslims, education and wealth increase the risk of terrorism; I don't know how many times I have to keep repeating that before it gets through. Think of OBL with his $10 million and university degree: that's a lot of education and improvement to deliver, only to see it diverted to jihad.

Our pre-human ancestors didn't succeed. They are all extinct.

Bears (and many other nuisance species like great white sharks) would be extinct if humans didn't purposefully choose to conserve them....

Neanderthals lived more than twice as long as humans have lived. Other species have been around much longer, and continue into the present, and may yet outlive us. The fact humans have exterminated many other species is not exactly an endorsement of religion. Human scientists deserve credit for exterminating smallpox, but most scientists are atheists or agnostic; exterminating many other species was a self-defeating blunder.

What other species create art, music..........and organized religion?

I'm delighted to learn that you appreciate Lady Gaga, but are you saying there were no successful civilizations before she arrived? I'm a fan, but even I survived for years before first hearing her name, and back then I did not even realize that she was essential. Today, yes, of course. And that's the issue with calling something essential: without it, what would have arisen instead?

238

FortWayne 2017 May 23, 8:44pm

Right now, a large part of the muslim world lives in such conditions - lack of education, poverty, overpopulation, fail states, foreign interventions, aggressions and occupations. It is therefore not surprising that right now muslims are the perpetrators of horrific acts incited by religion. However, if we look into the not too distant past, there are plenty of instances of other religious groups conducting atrocities. So the specifics of the muslim religion alone cannot explain the terrorist acts today.

FP, no one cares about past history. Right now there is a whole lot of muslim terrorists who wish death upon us all. ISIS was started under that premise. And the only reason those martyr occasions are rare is because they are fighting in the middle east, and can't afford to create more death in our country.

Christianity = love and forgiveness.
Islam (the popular ISIS verion) = murder everyone else.

That's no comparison today. Expecting those people to stop attempting to kill us is foolishly naive. Their business model and faith depends on murdering us.

239

marcus 2017 May 23, 8:51pm

They don't believe we had pre-human ancestors. They think we did not evolve, and the earth is only 6,000 years old.

You see if you need to believe this, what does it say about how secure you are in your beliefs ?

You could ask 100 Catholic priests, 200 protestant ministers (not fundies), i.e Episcopalian, Presbitarian, Lutheran, etc, 100 Rabbis and possibly not find a single one that believes this.

Kinda sad that you need to lie about what being religious means, in order to justify not believing. I don't particularly believe myself, but I believe there may be value in religion, an I admire some people who have faith. And I don't have any need to lie about what modern non fundamentalist religion is.

240

Strategist 2017 May 23, 9:00pm

marcus says

Kinda sad that you need to lie about what being religious means, in order to justify not believing. I don't particularly believe myself, but I believe there may be value in religion, an I admire some people who have faith. And I don't have any need to lie about what modern non fundamentalist religion is.

Yes, there can be value in religion at times, but that does not negate the fact that religion is the number one cause of wars, human rights abuse, and suppression of progress.
Islam is the ultimate proof.

241 socal2 2017 May 23, 9:02pm

curious2 says

Neanderthals lived more than twice as long as humans have lived. Other species have been around much longer, and continue into the present, and may yet outlive us.

Of course. Cockroaches will probably outlive everything. There are millions of little microscopic organisms (and plants) that have been around forever that you and I don't even know about, but we wouldn't consider them advanced life.

None of them are writing music.

curious2 says

Human scientists deserve credit for exterminating smallpox, but most scientists are atheists or agnostic; exterminating many other species was a self-defeating blunder.

My great uncle was a Catholic Jesuit Priest and a published geneticist long before Vatican II. My wife's friend who is staying with us this week is an ER doctor and a devout orthodox Jew and has 3 little kids and counting. I dare say that both of them can run circles around us in terms of scientific thought and accomplishment, yet their devout beliefs in God isn't holding them back. In fact, I dare say their devout religious beliefs helped them thrive. My wife's Dr. friend staying with us faced massive adversity early in life and she attributes her religious beliefs helping her get through it and her success in adulthood. And since she is bothering to have children who will be well educated and loved, chances are the human species will continue to advance and be better off for it.

242 missing 2017 May 23, 9:05pm

Catholics believe in evolution.

how come? - it contradicts their book of magic

243 missing 2017 May 23, 9:07pm

curious2 says

it doesn't explain the radical disparities between Muslim countries and other countries that have similar poverty

poverty is not the only factor that maters; I listed several other things

244 missing 2017 May 23, 9:10pm

FP, no one cares about past history.

Past history was mentioned and is relevant in the context of my discussion Patrick. You obviously did not understand.

245 missing 2017 May 23, 9:13pm

Christianity = love and forgiveness.

Good. Then as a christian person, what do you do to stop your government (made of christians as well) to stop killing thousands of people abroad?

Let me guess - you put your head in the sand and deny it's happening.

246

FortWayne 2017 May 23, 9:14pm

socal2 says

Catholics believe in evolution.

how come? - it contradicts their book of magic

You know nothing about Christianity.

247 missing 2017 May 23, 9:16pm

You know nothing about Christianity.

What? There is a new interpretation?

248

FortWayne 2017 May 23, 9:17pm

FortWayne says

Christianity = love and forgiveness.

Good. Then as a christian person, what do you do to stop your government (made of christians as well) to stop killing thousands of people abroad?

Let me guess - you put your head in the sand and deny it's happening.

We Christians aren't the problem here. You are just clueless about everything around you man. They want us dead, it's not for us to surrender our country to them and let them murder everyone they can.

249

FortWayne 2017 May 23, 9:17pm

FortWayne says

You know nothing about Christianity.

What? There is a new interpretation?

No, you just don't know anything.

250

Strategist 2017 May 23, 9:18pm

My great uncle was a Catholic Jesuit Priest and a published geneticist long before Vatican II. My wife's friend who is staying with us this week is an ER doctor and a devout orthodox Jew and has 3 little kids and counting. I dare say that both of them can run circles around us in terms of scientific thought and accomplishment, yet their devout beliefs in God isn't holding them back. In fact, I dare say their devout religious beliefs helped them thrive. My wife's Dr. friend staying with us faced massive adversity early in life and she attributes her religious beliefs helping her get through it and her success in adulthood. And since she is bothering to have children who will be well educated and loved, chances are the human species will continue to advance and be better off for it.

The human species would be better off simply by educating every single person on the planet. It's the best way of getting the population to move away from religion, and towards science.
By the way the Bible preaches creationism, not evolution. To claim Catholics believe in evolution is rather silly. I would question the talents of any Medical Doctor who does not believe in evolution.
Research clearly demonstrates that atheists are more intelligent, more educated, invent the most, and have done more for the progress of mankind than people who believe in silly religious fairy tales.

251

FortWayne 2017 May 23, 9:22pm

The human species would be better off simply by educating every single person on the planet. It's the best way of getting the population to move away from religion, and towards science.

By the way the Bible preaches creationism, not evolution.

Religion and science are not opposite Strategist. They compliment each other. Wisdom of human kind is written into the bible. Science doesn't teach that, and it's the most important lesson.

As far as evolution / creationism... evolution doesn't have any proof of how everything was made. Big bang theory doesn't work, because something can't be created out of nothing, it conflicts with science.

252

Strategist 2017 May 23, 9:22pm

Good. Then as a christian person, what do you do to stop your government (made of christians as well) to stop killing thousands of people abroad?

Let me guess - you put your head in the sand and deny it's happening.

Shouldn't you be asking that to the violent followers of Islam? You know, those who target babies, auction off 9 year olds as sex slaves, and slaughter anyone who disagrees with them?

253

Dan8267 2017 May 23, 9:25pm

www.youtube.com/embed/HMUKGTkiWik?start=75&end=80

Do us a favor and knock some sense into Pinky.

254 missing 2017 May 23, 9:26pm

www.youtube.com/embed/3yqGSwE7uNk

No, you just don't know anything.

How can I respond to such a strong argument. You win.

255

Dan8267 2017 May 23, 9:26pm

Religion and science are not opposite Strategist. They compliment each other.

That's a load of crap. Science is based on evidence. Religion is based on faith, the rejection of evidence. The are antithetical world views.

256

Strategist 2017 May 23, 9:27pm

Wisdom of human kind is written into the bible. Science doesn't teach that, and it's the most important lesson.

That i agree.

As far as evolution / creationism... evolution doesn't have any proof of how everything was made. Big bang theory doesn't work, because something can't be created out of nothing, it conflicts with science.

Science has no idea how everything was made. One day it might. Religion, however, has no idea of how everything was made either, and never will.

257

Dan8267 2017 May 23, 9:27pm

Just remember, every time ISIS kills somebody, you can thank George W. Bush for its rise to power. This is the consequence of his illegal war. It left a power vacuum that ISIS filled.

258 missing 2017 May 23, 9:30pm

Shouldn't you be asking that to the violent followers of Islam?

Here everybody is asking them. I am asking the questions that nobody is asking. That what smart people do. We leave the easy stuff to the mediocre.

259 socal2 2017 May 23, 9:32pm

By the way the Bible preaches creationism, not evolution. To claim Catholics believe in evolution is rather silly.

Good grief.

"Early contributions to the development of evolutionary theory were made by Catholic scientists such as Jean-Baptiste Lamarck and the Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel. For nearly a century, the papacy offered no authoritative pronouncement on Darwin's theories. In the 1950 encyclical Humani generis, Pope Pius XII confirmed that there is no intrinsic conflict between Christianity and the theory of evolution,"

"Catholic schools in the United States and other countries teach evolution as part of their science curriculum."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Catholic_Church

Again - do you guys really have no clue about this stuff? Is your understanding of Christianity (and Judaism) really this superficial?

260 missing 2017 May 23, 9:34pm

Wisdom of human kind is written into the bible.

Some wisdom and a lot of nonsense. I learned more wisdom about human kind from the novels of, say, HonorÃ© de Balzac.

261

Strategist 2017 May 23, 9:40pm

I am asking the questions that nobody is asking. That what smart people do. We leave the easy stuff to the mediocre.

We already have the answers to the questions you keep asking. That is why nobody else is asking them. If you were really smart, you would have got that by now.

262

Strategist 2017 May 23, 9:42pm

Dan8267 says

Just remember, every time ISIS kills somebody, you can thank George W. Bush for its rise to power. This is the consequence of his illegal war. It left a power vacuum that ISIS filled.

Which Obama watched it rise to power, while he played golf.

263

FortWayne 2017 May 23, 9:43pm

Science has no idea how everything was made. One day it might. Religion, however, has no idea of how everything was made either, and never will.

I think you are putting too much faith in science on this one :)

264

Strategist 2017 May 23, 9:46pm

Strategist says

By the way the Bible preaches creationism, not evolution. To claim Catholics believe in evolution is rather silly.

Good grief.

"Early contributions to the development of evolutionary theory were made by Catholic scientists such as Jean-Baptiste Lamarck and the Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel. For nearly a century, the papacy offered no authoritative pronouncement on Darwin's theories. In the 1950 encyclical Humani generis, Pope Pius XII confirmed that there is no intrinsic conflict between Christianity and the theory of evolution,"

"Catholic schools in the United States and other countries teach evolution as part of their science curriculum."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Catholic_Church

Again - do you guys really have no clue about ...

The earth is 6,000 years old as per the Bible. You cannot believe in a 6,000 year old earth and evolution at the same time.

265

Dan8267 2017 May 23, 9:51pm

Which Obama watched it rise to power, while he played golf.

Bush is still far worse on this one because he created the problem.

266

Dan8267 2017 May 23, 9:53pm

I think you are putting too much faith in science on this one

Faith in science, the type of oxymoronic thinking that dominates religion. Science works empirically. Planes fly. Medications work. We walked on the moon. You are writing stuff on a world-wide network of electronic computing devices. Science is not based on faith. It's based on results.

267

Strategist 2017 May 23, 10:08pm

Strategist says

Science has no idea how everything was made. One day it might. Religion, however, has no idea of how everything was made either, and never will.

I think you are putting too much faith in science on this one :)

No. I'm admitting science does not know everything. We have barely scratched the surface of science.
Aren't you putting too much faith in a religion that claims to know everything, even though it has been repeatedly proven wrong?

268 socal2 2017 May 23, 10:23pm

The earth is 6,000 years old as per the Bible. You cannot believe in a 6,000 year old earth and evolution at the same time.

Yet devout Catholics and Jews (along with other Christian denominations like Lutherans, Episcopalians and Protestants) have managed to believe (and even teach) evolution for years.

How does that work?

Catholic catechism includes Man's reason and logic as part of it's dogma. Catholic dogma "evolves" as Man's understanding of the universe advances. Judaism is the same way. That is why there are so many Catholic and Jewish scientists and doctors - there is no conflict. It is also why Christianity and Judaism have been so compatible and successful under secular government as they also believe in pluralism. It is also why Judaism has outlasted virtually every other civilization and ideology on the planet despite massive historic persecution.

Islam is totally different in that it does not accept man's reason and logic or secular rule - hence the reason why it is so fucked up and violent.

I would think these things were obviously apparent.

269 missing 2017 May 23, 10:45pm

Yet devout Catholics and Jews (along with other Christian denominations like Lutherans, Episcopalians and Protestants) have managed to believe (and even teach) evolution for years.

How does that work?

by way of brain damage

270 EBGuy 2017 May 23, 11:36pm

Meanwhile in Canada...
www.youtube.com/embed/1VwpwP_fIqY

271

FortWayne 2017 May 24, 12:30pm

At times I sure do, if we all agreed there would never be a debate.

I do however believe that for America to stay a moral nation we have to be a Christian nation. Otherwise morality will disappear or worse Muslim craziness will take over.