patrick.net

FortWayne says

Strategist says

Science has no idea how everything was made. One day it might. Religion, however, has no idea of how everything was made either, and never will.

I think you are putting too much faith in science on this one :)

No. I'm admitting science does not know everything. We have barely scratched the surface of science.
Aren't you putting too much faith in a religion that claims to know everything, even though it has been repeatedly proven wrong?

Strategist says

The earth is 6,000 years old as per the Bible. You cannot believe in a 6,000 year old earth and evolution at the same time.

Yet devout Catholics and Jews (along with other Christian denominations like Lutherans, Episcopalians and Protestants) have managed to believe (and even teach) evolution for years.

How does that work?

Catholic catechism includes Man's reason and logic as part of it's dogma. Catholic dogma "evolves" as Man's understanding of the universe advances. Judaism is the same way. That is why there are so many Catholic and Jewish scientists and doctors - there is no conflict. It is also why Christianity and Judaism have been so compatible and successful under secular government as they also believe in pluralism. It is also why Judaism has outlasted virtually every other civilization and ideology on the planet despite massive historic persecution.

Islam is totally different in that it does not accept man's reason and logic or secular rule - hence the reason why it is so fucked up and violent.

I would think these things were obviously apparent.

socal2 says

Yet devout Catholics and Jews (along with other Christian denominations like Lutherans, Episcopalians and Protestants) have managed to believe (and even teach) evolution for years.

How does that work?

by way of brain damage

Meanwhile in Canada...
www.youtube.com/embed/1VwpwP_fIqY

At times I sure do, if we all agreed there would never be a debate.

I do however believe that for America to stay a moral nation we have to be a Christian nation. Otherwise morality will disappear or worse Muslim craziness will take over.

Strategist says

FortWayne says

Strategist says

Science has no idea how everything was made. One day it might. Religion, however, has no idea of how everything was made either, and never will.

I think you are putting too much faith in science on this one :)

No. I'm admitting science does not know everything. We have barely scratched the surface of science.

Aren't you putting too much faith in a religion that claims to know everything, even though it has been repeatedly proven wrong?

EBGuy2 says

www.youtube.com/embed/1VwpwP_fIqY

That was pretty damn good.

It's not Islamophobia if Muslims really are threatening to kill you.

And Muslims are threatening to kill you if you use your rights.

Everyone should be very afraid of Islam.

Islam hates you. Islam hates all non-Muslims. It's in the Koran. It's on every page of the Koran.

The choice is freedom, or Islam.

Back to the Thread Subject for a minute.

Father of Salman Abedi claims his son is innocent. "We" don't do these kinds of thing. Meanwhile, reports that Abedi's younger brother has been arrested in Libya for ties to ISIS. Ramadan Abedi told reporters in Tripoli, Libya, his son sounded 'normal' when he spoke to him five days ago.

Earlier Picture

Hasem Ramadan, the younger brother also pictured above, picked up by Libyan Authorities:

Life comes at your fast: Father now under arrest by Libyan Counter-Terrorism force. And both brothers in Tripoli
http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/24/manchester-suicide-bombers-father-ramadan-abedi-arrested-in-libya-6659810/

Expected: Andy Burnham, Manchester Mayor, claims Salman not a Muslim, despite his attendance at Mosque and public recital of Koran Quotes

The mayor of Manchester, England, has declared that the Muslim terrorist responsible for Monday’s attack at Manchester Arena — which killed 22 people and wounded approximately 59 more — is “not a Muslim.”

Mayor Andy Burnham’s decree contradicts the overwhelming evidence that suicide-terrorist Salman Abedi was a devout Muslim and an active member of his mosque in Britain.

On Wednesday, the mayor appeared on Britain's LBC talk program to make his case.

“The message that I would want to get over — and this is how the vast majority of people feel — this man was a terrorist, not a Muslim,” Burnham said. “The worst thing that can happen is that people use this to blame an entire community, the Muslim community.”
...

Abedi was a student of the Quran, according to The New York Times, and was described by neighbors as “devout.” Moreover, his family was heavily involved in the Islamic community in Manchester. The alleged terrorist frequently attended the city’s Didsbury Mosque, and his father sometimes issued the call to prayer there.

Remember, it's far more important to stop hurt feelz among Muslims than to focus on the 22 Children Murdered.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

this man was a terrorist, not a Muslim

He was a terrorist because we was a Muslim.

Not only that, it's because he was a devout Muslim doing exactly what Islam teaches.

Too obvious for words, really.

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

Like clockwork Dan trots out the red herring of mustaches being more important characteristics than ideas.

There is nothing about disbelieving in supernatural sky daddies that makes people commit genocide, wage war, or burn gays and witches at the stake. However, there is a great deal about religion that makes people do those things. When people hold up "god hates fags" signs, sorry bro, but that does have something inherently to do with their religion. When Muslims say death to the infidels, religion is the cause. And it's not just a few people. The majority of people in the past 10,000 years have been motivated to evil causes either committing vile acts themselves or enabling others directly due to religion. History supports my beliefs and contradicts yours.

And again, what the flying fuck is the upside of the delusion you call a religion?

You are wrong again. When a person says there is no God, they are implying there is no God to which they are accountable. Therefore there is no reason to fear comitting genocide, waging selfish wars, burning gays/witches at the stake or any number of attrocities, because there is no higher authority to hold you accountable for your wrongdoing. On the other hand, someone who truly fears God would not deliberately and habitually do evil because they would know that God will not let their evil go unpunished. The "god hates fags" crowd might be religious, but they are not God fearing. Furthermore, Jesus never stood by the side of the road holding hate signs, and never told his people to do so either. The founder of Islam on the other hand did murder, rape and enslave, and taught his followers to do the same. There is no upside of religion. That is not my argument. But there is an upside to fearing God, because when you fear God you begin to have wisdom.

https://www.gotquestions.org/fear-Lord-beginning-wisdom.html

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

There is plenty of violence and hate in this world that has nothing to do with religion.

There is plenty of violence in this world not caused by North Korea having nukes and ICBMs. That does not imply that it's OK for North Korea to have nukes and ICBMs. Is logic really that hard?

I am not in favor of Kimfuck having nuclear weapons, but North Korea is a nation of 25 million people. So as a liberal how would you strong arm/prevent Kimfuck from having nukes and ICBMs without risking the lives of 25 million North Koreans and the millions of people on his boarders? But more to the point, what is the source of violence and hate Dan? Answer that and you will be demonstrating wisdom.

PeopleUnited says

You are wrong again. When a person says there is no God, they are implying there is no God to which they are accountable.

Hello?Lets ask the person who says "there is no God" like me to clarify. When I say there is no God, I mean there is no God. That he does not exist, never did and never will. That the belief in God is the world's greatest myth. God, Devil, tooth fairy, Santa claus, Bogey Man, all have one thing in common......they do not exist.
Got it?

PeopleUnited says

But more to the point, what is the source of violence and hate Dan? Answer that and you will be demonstrating wisdom.

Religion and God is the source of virtually all violence.

FP says

Blind beliefs, what religions are about, predispose towards tribalism, fanaticism, and enable manipulation. The degree to which they are able to influence people depend on the circumstances - education of the population, economic and political situation, etc. However, given the "right" conditions, they incite and justify horrible acts.

Right now, a large part of the muslim world lives in such conditions - lack of education, poverty, overpopulation, fail states, foreign interventions, aggressions and occupations. It is therefore not surprising that right now muslims are the perpetrators of horrific acts incited by religion. However, if we look into the not too distant past, there are plenty of instances of other religious groups conducting atrocities. So the specifics of the muslim religion alone cannot explain the terrorist acts today.

If people adhering to other religions are put into similar circumstances (including educational lever, religiousness, etc), I expect ...

Ah the nature vs. nuture argument. Sorry FP, your view is overly simplistic and doesn't pass the sniff test. As others have pointed out, Islamic terrorists come from diverse socieoconomic backgrounds. But they all have one thing in common, they believe the lies of Islam. Jesus on the other hand taught his followers to be happy with food and clothing, and to turn the other cheek when they are mistreated.

That is not to say that Islamic religion is the only source of lies. However, it is a source of lies that is motivating a rapidly growing number of cowards to attack soft targets around the world. Islam is the complete opposite of freedom, Islam is slavery.

If religion is man made as you say therefore man is the source of all violence, not religion. That's just following your logic.

Strategist says

PeopleUnited says

But more to the point, what is the source of violence and hate Dan? Answer that and you will be demonstrating wisdom.

Religion and God is the source of virtually all violence.

Strategist says

PeopleUnited says

You are wrong again. When a person says there is no God, they are implying there is no God to which they are accountable.

Hello?Lets ask the person who says "there is no God" like me to clarify. When I say there is no God, I mean there is no God. That he does not exist, never did and never will. That the belief in God is the world's greatest myth. God, Devil, tooth fairy, Santa claus, Bogey Man, all have one thing in common......they do not exist.

Got it?

When you say there is no God, you are not only denying His existence, you are also denying His word. But correct me if I am wrong. Are you changing your stripes Stragegist? Am I wrong in assuming you don't believe in accountability to God for your sins?

FortWayne says

If religion is man made as you say therefore man is the source of all violence, not religion. That's just following your logic.

Basically yes.
Voltaire....."Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

Voltaire Quotes - BrainyQuote
https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/v/voltaire.html
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit ...

PeopleUnited says

When you say there is no God, you are not only denying His existence, you are also denying His word. But correct me if I am wrong. Are you changing your stripes Stragegist? Am I wrong in assuming you don't believe in accountability to God for your sins?

If i don't believe in God, I cannot believe in accountability to the nonexistent character you call God.

I think there can be morality without God. You just have to see that other people suffer like you yourself do, that they are really very similar to you.

How do you suppose the Jews outlived virtually every civilization despite massive persecution and thrived producing massive wealth and contributions to science, literature, culture, economics.........at a much higher per capita than any civilization on earth? Where did the Hittites go? Babylonians? Minoans? Romans? Assyrians? Incas? Aztecs? Egyptians? The Jews outlasted them all!

Provided it was not supernatural forces by God or a master plan protecting the Jews for thousands of years. Can't one argue that it was the Jewish religious belief system and lifestyle that has allowed them to outlast everyone else for thousands of years? So accepting the non-supernatural explanation - doesn't that clearly point out that not all religions are the same and that some religious belief (particularly the Jewish faith) is a major asset for some people?

socal2 says

How do you suppose the Jews outlived virtually every civilization despite massive persecution and thrived producing massive wealth and contributions to science, literature, culture, economics.........at a much higher per capita than any civilization on earth? Where did the Hittites go? Babylonians? Minoans? Romans? Assyrians? Incas? Aztecs? Egyptians? The Jews outlasted them all!

Provided it was not supernatural forces by God or a master plan protecting the Jews for thousands of years. Can't one argue that it was the Jewish religious belief system and lifestyle that has allowed them to outlast everyone else for thousands of years? So accepting the non-supernatural explanation - doesn't that clearly point out that not all religions are the same and that some religious belief (particularly the Jewish faith) is a major asset for some people?

New Poll Shows Atheism on Rise, With Jews Found to Be Least Religious
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/new-poll-shows-atheism-on-rise-with-jews-found-to-be-least-religious-1.459477

Don't know if this is some guy taking the piss, or actual Muslima.

Look closely at her Burka below:

rando says

I think there can be morality without God.

Of course. Morality is rooted in evolution. Animals exhibit traits of morality too.

FP says

rando says

I think there can be morality without God.

Of course. Morality is rooted in evolution. Animals exhibit traits of morality too.

Morality cannot be achieved with God/Religion. Just look at the morals in the holy books of the major religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Hinduism. They are sickening. They do not meet my moral standards.
I did not mention Islam, because it's a fucking cult.

socal2 says

Where did the Hittites go? Babylonians? Minoans? Romans? Assyrians? Incas? Aztecs? Egyptians? The Jews outlasted them all!

Not sure about the Hittites, but many of the others are still around in some religious form.

The Babylonians became Orthodox Christian and now call themselves Chaldean.
Minoans are Greek Orthodox now and not much different from other Greeks I think.
Romans became Italian. We're using the Latin alphabet right now, not dead. All Catholic churches are little remnant outposts of the Roman Empire, and the church is still run from Rome.
Assyrians are still a distinct group, also Orthodox Christian.
Incas are still there. 9 million people still speak Quechua. Dunno if they still have any native religion.
Aztecs were very Hispanified and Catholic, and so their distinct identity is gone.
The original Egyptians are now the Coptic Christians of Egypt, and have managed to hang on despite Islam's chipping away at them for a thousand years.

Maybe the Jews are some of the least changed people, but they are not exactly the same as in ancient times either.

It does seem to be true that having an exclusive ethnic religion helps preserve identity, as opposed to being Catholic or Muslim, which think of themselves as universal and not particular to any one group. Makes for less of a barrier to intermarriage and so starts to blur identities.

Strategist says

Just look at the morals in the holy books of the major religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Hinduism. They are sickening. They do not meet my moral standards.

The 10 Commandments are really "sickening" to you? Especially these?

- Honor thy father and mother?
- Thow shall not kill?
- Thow shall not commit adultery?
- Thow shall not steal?
- Thow shall not bear false witness?
- Thow shall not covet they neighbor's spouse or possessions?

How about the Golden Rule? Do unto others???

Those are pretty fundamental compared to other obscure references in the Old and New Testament. And considering they are nearly 4000 years old, I think it holds up pretty well.

The moral standards of American law on segregation just 50 years ago was pretty sickening. Let alone America's laws on slavery before it. I suspect most of us 50 years from now will consider the morality around America's abortion laws as pretty sickening too.

socal2 says

The 10 Commandments are really "sickening" to you? Especially these?

- Honor thy father and mother?

- Thow shall not kill?

- Thow shall not commit adultery?

- Thow shall not steal?

- Thow shall not bear false witness?

- Thow shall not covet they neighbor's spouse or possessions?

You need a book to tell you all that? You can't figure that out for yourself? It's common sense.
You need religion to tell you the following disgusting crap:
The Bible: "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with
him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." 1

http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm_bibl.htm

PeopleUnited says

You are wrong again. When a person says there is no God, they are implying there is no God to which they are accountable.

No. You're wrong. When I say there is no god, I mean there is no god. A person is immorally accountable for immoral actions. You don't need some supernatural sky daddy to motivate you to not do evil, unless you are fucking evil. Tell me, is the only thing keeping you from killing babies is the belief in your false god? If so, you are sick.

PeopleUnited says

Therefore there is no reason to fear comitting genocide, waging selfish wars, burning gays/witches at the stake or any number of attrocities, because there is no higher authority to hold you accountable for your wrongdoing.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. I can think of lots of reasons not to commit genocide or start wars that have nothing to do with fairy-tales about supernatural beings.

I guess you would murder babies for shits and giggles if you didn't believe in god, but that just means your evil and crazy, not that you are right about there being a god.

PeopleUnited says

On the other hand, someone who truly fears God would not deliberately and habitually do evil because they would know that God will not let their evil go unpunished.

Your statement is empirically false. Just look at 90% of Christian history. Look at the torture, rape, and murder committed in the name of Christ. Hell, look at ISIS today. They believe in your god, the god of Abraham, and yet they commit atrocities all the time. Don't let reality get in the way of your fantasies.

PeopleUnited says

That is not my argument. But there is an upside to fearing God, because when you fear God you begin to have wisdom.

Only a fool thinks that fear is wisdom.

FortWayne says

If religion is man made as you say therefore man is the source of all violence, not religion. That's just following your logic.

Fort Wayne, don't even try to do logic. You'll sprain something.

Religion is, of course, man made. However, Strategist -- and damn you for making me defend him -- said virtually all, not all, violence. Obviously lions commit violent acts that have nothing to do with man.

Hm, I see some opportunity for entertainment while waiting for my kids to do the geometry problems I gave them.

Let's try this:

Hey socal2, are you OK?

Strategist says

socal2 says

The 10 Commandments are really "sickening" to you? Especially these?

- Honor thy father and mother?


- Thow shall not kill?


- Thow shall not commit adultery?


- Thow shall not steal?


- Thow shall not bear false witness?


- Thow shall not covet they neighbor's spouse or possessions?

You need a book to tell you all that? You can't figure that out for yourself? It's common sense.

You need religion to tell you the following disgusting crap:

The Bible: "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with

him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." 1

http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm_bibl.htm

Strategist, there is a lot of people who do need that to be the basis of morality. It really is not common sense. A child isn't born with any of that. Morality is taught, and if we don't have faith that preaches that, well, we won't have a moral society.

ISIS is raising kids with hatred toward America, and when they grow up their common sense will be "death to America". It'll be really rough if they start winning.

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

You are wrong again. When a person says there is no God, they are implying there is no God to which they are accountable.

No. You're wrong. When I say there is no god, I mean there is no god.

He is implying that atheists believe in God. I have heard of a lot of silly nonsense that comes from believers, but this has got to be the most bizarre.

PeopleUnited says

When you say there is no God, you are not only denying His existence, you are also denying His word.

I'll gladly deny your false god's word. I don't believe in murdering babies (1 Samuel 15:3, Psalms 135:8 & 136:10, Psalms 137:9).

I don't believe in killing children either.
Leviticus 20:9
Judges 11:30-40
Psalms 137:8-9
2 Kings 6:28-29
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Judges 19:24-29
Exodus 12:29
Exodus 20:9-10
2 Kings 2:23-24
Leviticus 26:30
1 Samuel 15:11-18
I Kings 16:34
Isaiah 13:15-18
Jeremiah 11:22-23
Jeremiah 19:7-9
Lamentations 2:20-22

I also don't believe in raping women.
Isaiah 13:15-18
Judges 21:10-24
Numbers 31:7-18
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Deuteronomy 22:23-24
2 Samuel 12:11-14
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Judges 5:30
Exodus 21:7-11
Zechariah 14:1-2

And I don't believe in slavery.
Leviticus 25:44-46
Exodus 21:20-21
Ephesians 6:5
1 Timothy 6:1-2
Luke 12:47-48

Your god is false, but he is also fucking evil, and so is his word. No wonder Muslims worship him.

FortWayne says

Strategist, there is a lot of people who do need that to be the basis of morality. It really is not common sense. A child isn't born with any of that. Morality is taught, and if we don't have faith that preaches that, well, we won't have a moral society.

Are you telling me not murdering someone can only be taught by religion?

Atheists Now Make Up 0.1% of the Federal Prison Population
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/08/21/atheists-now-make-up-0-1-of-the-federal-prison-population/

FP says

Hey socal2, are you OK?

I am concerned that you are trying too hard

Bomber's childhood friend became a gang rapist: Pal is in jail for luring a girl, 16, into hotel room and raping her with a mob of attackers

Manchester bomber Salman Abedi used to hang around with Bilal Ahmed
Ahmed is now serving nine-year prison sentence for gang raping a schoolgirl, 16
He and two others jailed for a total of 31 years after all being convicted of rape
Ahmed and Salman Abedi used to hang out on their South Manchester estates

The rape of course was not put down to terrorism, just "Crime".
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4539572/Manchester-bomber-friend-jail-gang-raping-girl-16.html

‘It is also important to note that Hashem left the UK on April 16 and said he was in constant contact with his brother, the executor of the operation.’

Last night it emerged that the father of the British-born boys has publicly voiced his support for an extremist group fighting in Syria.

He posted photos of soldiers clad in black uniforms from the Al-Nusra Front, which was the official Syrian branch of Al Qaeda until it broke up last July, on his Facebook page five years ago. Underneath the photo, he wrote: ‘Victorious against the infidels... say Amen!’

Ramadan, a former airport security worker in the UK, also published a picture of Hashem holding a machine gun while wearing a Nike T-shirt and combat trousers. Underneath the picture he wrote: ‘The lion Hashem... is training.’

And in another post, he incited his followers to rise up against soldiers who served under former dictator Muammar Gaddafi.

Last night a former Libyan security official claimed the father had been a member of a former Al Qaeda-backed group in Libya.

According to the Associated Press news agency, ex-Libyan security official Abdel-Basit Haroun said he personally knew Ramadan, and that he had been a member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) in the 1990s. The group had links to Al Qaeda.

Although the LIFG has since disbanded, Mr Haroun alleged the father belonged to the Salafi Jihadi movement, the most extreme sect of Salafism and from which Al Qaeda and the Islamic State group hail.

Is it common sense to allow people to travel and back forth from countries experiencing Civil War where religious extremists feature greatly?

Takeaway: State security personnel are more interested in keeping tabs on people than keeping them from terrorizing.

Many Libyans were allowed to flee to the UK - Manchester has the largest contingent - in the 90s to escape "Persecution" by Ghaddafyi. Anybody who wanted "Change" (ie reimposition of Shari'a Law) was a "Regime Target". Most of them were members of the Libyan Islamic Fighters Group, which was instrumental in the overthrow of Ghaddfyi. One of their leaders even became head of the Military Council, the forerunner of the current Government.
https://www.channel4.com/news/the-teenage-libyan-rebel-from-manchester

Again, politicians and media claim "Moderate Rebels" and imply they are freedom fighters against a Tyrant, when they really are largely or even wholly Islamist Jihadis.

The UK is allowing thousands of ISIS Volunteers and "Jihadi Wives" back, even though they know where they are going. Meanwhile, Kurdish UK citizens are arrested the moment they book a ticket to fight with the Peshmurga. WTF is going on?