patrick.net

Dan8267 says

Yes, enforcement of laws that restrict religious practices.

laws often conflict with one another, when freedom of religion violates the peace surely the peace must be protected at the expense of religious practice. but when the bill of rights was enacted, it was primarily with the experience of oppression by state run churches or church run states in europe that the early american founders were seeking to avoid. they were seeking to prevent government oppression in the name of religion.

Dan8267 says

Bullshit. Ending an entire religion by forcing the disbelief in a god at literal gunpoint most certainly is a far, far greater prohibition of religion than I have ever proposed.

Again, it is irrelevant. An argument that our government is more conservative than you doesn't mean you are not conservative.

Dan8267 says

Same exactly thing can be said regarding the Romans and Christianity. If Jesus were a god, he could not have been killed.

Same exactly thing can be said today regarding Christianity in the United States. If the Christian god were real, then no law banning Christianity would matter. So why oppose such laws?

Also, since when has religion ever had anything to do with truth? Stating that Jesus was a god is as much of a lie as stating that Emperor Hirohito was a god.

There is no comparison between the Emperor of Japan who bowed to the will of a superior force lest he be killed, and Jesus who submitted Himself to the cross and denied not the accusation that He was King of the Jews. All Jesus had to do was say He wasn't who He was accused of being. But He did not refute the accusations, because He is the King of the Jews and He cannot lie. If the Emperor had followed Jesus pattern he would have insisted that he was a God and then risen from the dead after three days like Jesus did. Again there is no comparison. Jesus remained true and the Emperor was proven a liar.

Christians can also be killed and tortured and imprisoned just as Jesus was unjustly taken captive, tortured and killed. Just because God's people can be treated unjustly doesn't imply God is not who He said He is. You will find, sooner or later, that every promise God makes will be kept. This includes His promises to you.

Jesus isn't a god. He is God. That is the truth.

PeopleUnited says

Jesus isn't a god. He is God. That is the truth.

Did he appear to you, like a spirit guide, and tell you that?

Or are you using someone else's reference?

Dan8267 says

Islamic parents teach their children to commit Jihad and to kill the infidel. If brainwashing is not illegal for one religion, why should it be legal for any?

What if a religion demanded sex between its members? Yes, this was actually quite common in history. Are you OK with it being an unassailable right for parents to teach their children to fornicate in the temple? Somehow, I suspect not. You are only OK with some religious beliefs being taught to children and indoctrination of children into some religions.

Again, it's not a right unless it applies to all possible persons and situations. Otherwise, it's a privilege, and privileges can be revoked.

What you are missing here is that you are a conservative. You are arguing that practicing religion is a privilege that can be revoked. That sounds pretty conservative to me.

Rin says

PeopleUnited says

Jesus isn't a god. He is God. That is the truth.

Did he appear to you, like a spirit guide, and tell you that?

Or are you using someone else's reference?

He can be found by those who seek after Him with their whole heart. That was my experience. Not that I earned His favor because I have not done anything to merit His Grace, but it is true that when I looked for Him I found Him to be who He said He is in His word, the Bible.

Dan8267 says

If you think that evil is caused by "the devil" or some other fictional character, then you are not understanding the very real, very measurable, very mathematical problem of evil. And if you don't understand why people do evil things, then you cannot solve the problem of people doing evil things.

I agree with you, if you don't understand why people do evil things, you cannot expect to help them change. And I also agree that People don't do evil things because of the devil. At least that is not what I believe. I would be happy to share why I believe people do evil things. But you probably don't care to hear my version. That being said, I would love to hear yours. Please share with us why you are so confident that you can pinpoint why people do evil?

Dan8267 says

The entire reason slippery slope arguments are ridiculed is that, by definition, they state that a tiny event will snowball into cataclysm and empirically this rarely happens. The Broken Window Theory states nothing like that.

Well I'm not the only one who feels Broken Window Theory is a slippery slope argument. But this is not your argument anyway. It is more of you just arguing for the sake of arguing. That is my definition of a troll. You literally have no point other than to try and win an argument at all cost.

Black Lives Over Broken Windows: Challenging the Policing ...
www.politicalresearch.org/.../black-lives-over-broken-windows-challenging- the-policing-paradigm-rooted-in-right-wing-folk-wisdom/‎
Jul 6, 2016 ... The broken windows theory, brilliantly summarized in a recent video ... commit more serious offenses: a sort of slippery slope of criminality.

Please remember, my main point in our recent conversation Dan is that you are in fact a conservative. Your desire to ban free speech on the threads you moderate is an obvious example of your conservative tendencies. You are more conservative than most, as you ban more users than just about anyone.

Rin says

You see, when you're dealing with a disruptive, worthless troll, you just end up repeating and reposting the same litany of arguments, again and again, for a newer audience with the same results. The troll never changes tact but then, the audience grows bored of the overall argument, which in this case, is merely the name of a particular university and its sub-colleges.

I see what you are saying, an argument about the name of a college is pretty mundane. And I can't blame you for disliking Bob. I'm not sure I would call him a troll, but he clearly didn't add anything to your conversation. It is like when people argue semantics. I am so sick of semantic arguments.

PeopleUnited says

laws often conflict with one another, when freedom of religion violates the peace surely the peace must be protected at the expense of religious practice.

And this happens all the time. Also people's religions violate freedom of speech. We're always forced to choose between freedom of religion and freedom of speech. I choose the later. The right to convey ideas and debate issues takes precedence over a right to be delusional and practice ludicrous rituals.

If you were born Muslim, you'd be as opposed to Christianity as you actually are to Islam.

PeopleUnited says

Dan8267 says

Bullshit. Ending an entire religion by forcing the disbelief in a god at literal gunpoint most certainly is a far, far greater prohibition of religion than I have ever proposed.

Again, it is irrelevant. An argument that our government is more conservative than you doesn't mean you are not conservative.

That's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that there has never been anything remotely like freedom of religion in the United States. There has only been a select few state-sponsored religions that the state considered useful for controlling the masses. The WWII example proves this. A religion that was counter-productive to the state was completely eliminated at literal gunpoint.

PeopleUnited says

Jesus isn't a god. He is God. That is the truth.

No, it's not. It's a ridiculous delusion. The fact that you cannot see how ridiculous this delusion is demonstrates how much damage Christianity does to America.

Image if someone told you that the one true god was Vishnu. You'd consider him a lunatic. Now listen to your own words. They are no different. The hypocrisy of disbelieving in all other gods and then claiming your own false god as self-evidently the true god is beyond staggering.

PeopleUnited says

You are arguing that practicing religion is a privilege that can be revoked. That sounds pretty conservative to me.

It's not. It's no different than stating that possessing automatic firearms is a privilege that can be revoked.

In any case, it is a fact, not an opinion, that practicing religion is not a right in the United States. I have given plenty of examples in which the state does not tolerate religious practices. Do I have a religious right to smoke pot or use other drugs to induce "spiritual" experiences? Unless the answer is a resounding yes, and we free all the drug prisoners and arrest the federal agents and local police who arrested those people, there is no right to practice religion in the United States, only privileges. This is by definition of the word "right".

PeopleUnited says

But you probably don't care to hear my version.

Irrelevant. If it is flawed -- and it most certainly would be -- then I would exposed the flaws and why they are flaws. My feelings are irrelevant to logic and reasoning. In contrast, your beliefs are based largely on your feelings and not at all on logic, reasoning, or evidence.

PeopleUnited says

Please share with us why you are so confident that you can pinpoint why people do evil?

1. Math
2. Science
3. Engineering

I could go into far more detail writing pages of text, but you can Google this shit. There have been plenty of books written on the subject, plenty of TED talks and YouTube videos, plenty of documentaries on the Science channel. I haven't invented anything here. Feel free to get the information directly from the sources. It's all freely available and easy to find. Start by reading every book written by Robert Wright.

Hell, if reading is too hard, just sit back with some popcorn and watch this short video.

www.youtube.com/embed/N4wFyRGilp4

Science explains everything. Religion explains nothing. Science is true. Religion is false. Science is useful. Religion is counter-productive. Science creates stable societies. Religion creates stagnant and unstable societies. Science refines morality. Religion corrupts morality. If you want a more moral and happy world, you back science and oppose religion.

Dan8267 says

If the law conflicts with religious practices, the law takes priority.

I agree, only to add that care must be taken to see that non-violent practice of religion is not violently opposed.

Dan8267 says

If you were born Muslim, you'd be as opposed to Christianity as you actually are to Islam.

I'm not nearly as intolerant of Islam is Islam is intolerant of me. I would gladly let Islamists practice Islam in a place far, far away from me. And I would welcome every former Islamist who denies Allah and adopts Western Values. Islam on the other hand has world conquest in mind. The true Islamists will not rest till the Infidels are vanquished. Islam wants me dead or converted. I would let Islam live, far from me, and/or convert to an Allah denier with western values. I am much more liberal than Islam.

Dan8267 says

That's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that there has never been anything remotely like freedom of religion in the United States. There has only been a select few state-sponsored religions that the state considered useful for controlling the masses. The WWII example proves this. A religion that was counter-productive to the state was completely eliminated at literal gunpoint.

I agree with you to a certain extent. However, before the state allowed tax exempt status to churches, there was freedom of religion, at least to a greater extent. Churches should not be tax exempt, in fact Government should not recognize churches as entities.

World War II was about the usual causes of war, money and power (control) not religion. If you look closely, even the religious wars were about power and control/money more than doctrine.

Dan8267 says

It's not. It's no different than stating that possessing automatic firearms is a privilege that can be revoked.

It is a conservative thing to ban guns, even automatic weapons. You Dan are a conservative.

PeopleUnited says

I agree, only to add that care must be taken to see that non-violent practice of religion is not violently opposed.

Unlike the Christians on PatNet, I've never proposed violently destroying Islam. The Christians have proposed genocide. So who's the militant here?

I propose
1. Eliminating all legal privileges for religion.
2. Outlawing the brainwashing of children.
3. Outlawing any religious practice that causes terrorism or the violation of rights.
4. Changing our culture to be completely secular. Politicians should lose votes if they say anything stupid like god is guiding them.
5. Exporting the secular and scientific culture to the rest of the world, especially the Middle East.

PeopleUnited says

I'm not nearly as intolerant of Islam is Islam is intolerant of me.

The degree is different. The cause is the same.

PeopleUnited says

I would gladly let Islamists practice Islam in a place far, far away from me.

Would you tolerate Islam taking over the United States? If not, ask yourself why. It's the same reason I don't tolerate Christianity taking over the United States.

PeopleUnited says

Islam wants me dead or converted.

Islam does not want anything. It has no mind. Neither does Christianity or any other imaginary construct. Only people want things and make decisions. Don't personify institutions.

PeopleUnited says

World War II was about the usual causes of war, money and power (control) not religion.

To say that religion is not relevant to WWII is complete ignorance of history. Religion was one of the most, if not the most, important factors of WWII from the Holocaust to the kamikazes dying for their god-emperor.

Finally, watch the video. You responded too quickly to have watched it before writing your responses.

Dan8267 says

Science explains everything.

I love science. It is my favorite thing to study and practice. However it is bullshit to say it explains everything.

Let's make this simple. Why do priests molest little boys? And don't give me some three word answer like science math and engineering. First of all, science is a process, math is a science and so is engineering. A process cannot explain something. A process can produce a viable explanation but the process of science has not explained many things such as where did matter originate, where did time originate, why do all major cultures call the Big Dipper and Little Dipper bears when bears don't have long tails? just to name a few.

Dan8267 says

To say that religion is not relevant to WWII is complete ignorance of history. Religion was one of the most, if not the most, important factors of WWII from the Holocaust to the kamikazes dying for their god-emperor.

bullshit, people may have fought believing lies, but the leaders sent them to war to preserve/expand their power. what people believe motivates them just as today your unbelief motivates you to demonize God. But they cause of the war had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with economics and power.

PeopleUnited says

Why do priests molest little boys?

Evolutionary psychology and game theory explain human behavior.

PeopleUnited says

math is a science and so is engineering.

No.

PeopleUnited says

science is a process,

PeopleUnited says

A process cannot explain something.

The scientific method is a process, and processes that work can be used to arrive at explanations. Science has explained a vast number of things that religion has always failed. Why do the planets go in retrograde across the sky? Why do earthquakes happen? Why do people get sick? Where did human beings come from? How are babies made? Why can geckos climb walls?

Show me one damn thing that any religion has ever explained.

PeopleUnited says

Dan8267 says

To say that religion is not relevant to WWII is complete ignorance of history. Religion was one of the most, if not the most, important factors of WWII from the Holocaust to the kamikazes dying for their god-emperor.

bullshit

Are you really stating that religion had nothing to do with the Holocaust and with Hitler's rise to power? You need to seriously pick up a history book. This is all well-establish fact.

Dan8267 says

Islam does not want anything. It has no mind. Neither does Christianity or any other imaginary construct. Only people want things and make decisions. Don't personify institutions.

Islam is an idea/philosophy. The idea that is Islam opposes liberty and promotes slavery. It therefore opposes me and seeks my enslavement. I am not personifying, I am describing the philosophy. And while it is true that this philosophy/idea cannot affect me unless it has people to promote it, in this case Islam has over a billion people who do personify it in greater or lesser degrees. And the influence of this idea is growing by the day.

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

Why do priests molest little boys?

Evolutionary psychology and game theory explain human behavior.

It is a simple question. What motivates a priest to molest?

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

math is a science and so is engineering.

No.

Actually yes, both math and engineering are sciences. You might even have a bachelor of science degree or a Master of science in Mathematics or Engineering for all I know.

Dan8267 says

Show me one damn thing that any religion has ever explained.

The origin of life on earth to start. What happens after you die is another biggie.

Dan8267 says

bullshit

Are you really stating that religion had nothing to do with the Holocaust and with Hitler's rise to power? You need to seriously pick up a history book. This is all well-establish fact.

Merely stating the fact that World War II started because some men wanted more money/power/influence and other men opposed them. Everything else was merely a side show.

I watched your video, it was interesting. But it did not explain why priests molest little boys.

PeopleUnited says

Islam is an idea/philosophy.

Islam is a family of religions just like Judaism and Christianity.

PeopleUnited says

It is a simple question. What motivates a priest to molest?

Just because a question is simple does not mean I personally have the answer or care to speculate. Just because I do not know the answer does not mean there isn't one or that someone else doesn't know it or that the answer is discoverable using science. I'm quite sure there are psychologists who can tell you in painful detail exactly why a particular priest molested a particular child.

Whatever trap you think you have set, won't work. I have never and would never claim to have learned every single bit of mankind's knowledge. That would be impossible for any single human brain. Nor have I ever claimed that there are no unanswered scientific questions. However, science actually does answer questions whereas religion does not.

PeopleUnited says

Actually yes, both math and engineering are sciences. You might even have a bachelor of science degree or a Master of science in Mathematics or Engineering for all I know.

www.youtube.com/embed/BNsrK6P9QvI

Mathematics is pure a priori logic. You do not solve for x in one equation and then simply reassert the same value because x empirically equals two.

Science uses maths, but is based on the scientific method, which is by definition an empirical method. Scientific theory make testable predictions. The theory is confirmed with empirical observation.

Engineering is the application of mathematics and science to build and fix things.

These three concepts are very different. If you equate them, then you don't understand them.

PeopleUnited says

Dan8267 says

Show me one damn thing that any religion has ever explained.

The origin of life on earth to start. What happens after you die is another biggie.

No religion has explained either or these two things. Science has explained them both.

PeopleUnited says

Merely stating the fact that World War II started because some men wanted more money/power/influence and other men opposed them. Everything else was merely a side show.

The Holocaust was not "merely a side show".

PeopleUnited says

I watched your video, it was interesting. But it did not explain why priests molest little boys.

That's because the subject was not why priests molest little boys. You're thinking of the republican platform.

Dan8267 says

Islam is a family of religions just like Judaism and Christianity.

Islam is at its core an idea/philosophy (and an idea/philosophy that is quite different from Judaism/Christianity). When you have studied each extensively you will be qualified to classify them better. Till then, much as you wish to point out the intricate differences between Science, Math, and Engineering, I am going to insist there are mountains worth of difference between the ideas of Islam and Judeo-Christian tradition/philosophy (Such that despite a some obvious similarities, only a fool would equate Islam with others).

PeopleUnited says

Would you tolerate Islam taking over the United States? If not, ask yourself why. It's the same reason I don't tolerate Christianity taking over the United States.

No, I don't want ISIS taking away my beer and bacon. But thankfully Jesus did not come to earth to tell us how to eat or drink.

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

It is a simple question. What motivates a priest to molest?

Just because a question is simple does not mean I personally have the answer or care to speculate. Just because I do not know the answer does not mean there isn't one or that someone else doesn't know it or that the answer is discoverable using science. I'm quite sure there are psychologists who can tell you in painful detail exactly why a particular priest molested a particular child.

Whatever trap you think you have set, won't work. I have never and would never claim to have learned every single bit of mankind's knowledge. That would be impossible for any single human brain. Nor have I ever claimed that there are no unanswered scientific questions. However, science actually does answer questions whereas religion does not.

Dan you have claimed moral superiority to people you call religious. And you also repeatedly state that unless one understands the problem he/she can't hope to come to a solution. Your inability to describe the problem of why priests molest, let alone why people commit a million other immoral acts is just more evidence that you are talking out of the Hershey highway. You constantly harangue on the evils of religion and tribalism and conservatism. And yet you cannot even tell us why people choose to do evil. Your arguments lack credibility. If you cannot tell us the source of evil, the root of injustice, who are you to tell us the solution to injustice is secularism? Furthermore where is the secular society that has evolved to the point where the evils you attribute to religion are not also prevalent? There is no place on earth, now, in the past and I dare argue in the future where secularism will result in the utopia you so desire. The reason is that the evils you attribute to religion do not originate from religion.

This is why I accuse you and the left of promoting the thought crime fallacy. Thought crime seeks to prosecute the REASON people commit crime. It is the left who has successfully lobbied to impose even more stringent penalties on people who they claim are homophobic or racist and who commit violence or other discriminatory acts against others based on these prejudices. To the left, it is not good enough that we hold people accountable for the violence they commit. According to the left, we must hold people accountable for the thoughts they think. It is what leads a man to attack a group of Republicans with a rifle. He wants to hold them accountable for what they think. It is interestingly exactly what ISIS wants to do, they want to hold people accountable for what they think. And yes, even you Dan, you want to hold people accountable for what they think, the conservative that you are.

Overzealous religious people, and overzealous people of any ideology have sought to impose these restrictions on what people think for as long as humans have walked this earth. You could even argue that Cain killed Abel because Cain did not like that Abel had a different idea on how to worship God than him. But that is not evidence that religion causes murder. It is evidence that when you don't obey God's commands you set yourself on a path that leads to destruction.

Dan8267 says

Mathematics is pure a priori logic. You do not solve for x in one equation and then simply reassert the same value because x empirically equals two.

Science uses maths, but is based on the scientific method, which is by definition an empirical method. Scientific theory make testable predictions. The theory is confirmed with empirical observation.

Engineering is the application of mathematics and science to build and fix things.

These three concepts are very different. If you equate them, then you don't understand them.

Only a hypocrite would equate Islam with the other world religions while simultaneously arguing that mathematics and engineering are not sciences.

Fine, math uses a priori logic. On the other hand scientific method is based on observation rather than deduction. And scientists use math and observation to better describe and understand the natural world. And engineers use math and observation to create new ways of solving problems. But at the end of the day you are just arguing semantics. What you fail to acknowledge is that math, science, and engineering are things that humans as intelligent beings do. It takes an intelligent being to observe and record those observations. It takes an intelligent being to use a priori logic. It takes an intelligent being to put this knowledge to work in the engineering of ways to manipulate the elements in ways that better suit the needs of the engineer. And that is the point I am making here, science, math and engineering are things that humans do. We are hardwired to use logic, to observe, and to put that reasoning and observation to work for us in manipulating the world around us. Therefore science, math, engineering are things human do, rather than explanations for why people do evil.

The reason Dan, that you cannot tell us why humans do evil using math, science and engineering as you so boldly claim, is that math, science and engineering are also human actions.

God on the other hand makes it easy to understand why humans do evil. He tells us in His word that every human being is corrupt and in need of a Savior.

Romans Chapter 3

10
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11
there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12
All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." [3]
13
"Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." [4] "The poison of vipers is on their lips." [5]
14
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." [6]
15
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16
ruin and misery mark their ways,
17
and the way of peace they do not know." [7]
18
"There is no fear of God before their eyes." [8]
19
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24
and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
25
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, [9] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--
26
he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Dan8267 says

The Holocaust was not "merely a side show".

The Holocaust, while being a horrible act of violence against all of humanity, was not the cause of World War II. Don't conflate these atrocities with the cause of the war.

PeopleUnited says

Dan you have claimed moral superiority to people you call religious.

Where?

I claim that morality based on what is good is superior to morality based on the fear of being tortured for eternity.

I also point out the hypocrisy of the holier than thou who harm their fellow humans and the world but claim moral superiority because they believe in some false god.

PeopleUnited says

Your inability to describe the problem of why priests molest, let alone why people commit a million other immoral acts is just more evidence that you are talking out of the Hershey highway.

No, it's not. My refusal to speculate on the sexual behavior of some criminals or to generalize and reduce every single legal case into a sound bite is indicative of my honesty. Just because I didn't fall for your trap doesn't mean you have a point. You're suppose to get your opponent to fall for your trap before declaring victory.

Furthermore, the pedophilia of Christian clergy is irrelevant to this conversation other than to point out how monstrous the Christian church is for covering up these crimes and enabling the perpetrators to claim many more victims. That shows a complete lack of morality by the church.

PeopleUnited says

You constantly harangue on the evils of religion and tribalism and conservatism. And yet you cannot even tell us why people choose to do evil.

I've stated many times why. Instinct, genetic interest, short-term thinking, lack of cooperation and reciprocality. And I've backed it up with plenty of scientific evidence.

But it's irrelevant what answers I personally can give. The falseness of your religion has nothing to do with me or my knowledge. The fact is that if Jesus ever even existed, he died a cultist and nothing more. He did not rise from the dead. He does not talk to you. Anyone who thinks he does is deranged and delusional, by definition.

PeopleUnited says

If you cannot tell us the source of evil, the root of injustice, who are you to tell us the solution to injustice is secularism?

I'm someone who reads scientific articles, and the science is the authority. Observation and experimentation is the reason why "my" arguments have credibility. Of course, they aren't actually my arguments. They are scientific theories -- and theory does not mean guess -- that are backed up with empirical evidence. This puts those theories on par with gravity, electrodynamics, and all the other science that makes air travel, the Internet, and medicine work.

In contrast, you have stupid superstitions with no evidence to back them up.

PeopleUnited says

Furthermore where is the secular society that has evolved to the point where the evils you attribute to religion are not also prevalent?

Translation: Rape happens everywhere in the world, so rape clubs can't be a bad thing.

Rape does not happen uniformly everywhere. Neither do the evils created by religion. Culture matters. If you want to know what a truly religious culture is like, look towards the Middle East.

PeopleUnited says

There is no place on earth, now, in the past and I dare argue in the future where secularism will result in the utopia you so desire.

This is a cop out. It is always a cop out and a straw man to accuse your opponent of claiming a utopia when he did not. I never claimed a utopia, just a great improvement which is confirmed by the progress of the past 400 years of history.

The only person claiming utopias are the religious. Utopias cannot exist, not even in principle. So the utopia of heaven could never exist. What person would be happy in a heaven living with his or her rapist? What mother would be happy in heaven while her child is in hell? The utopia of heaven could not possibly exist.

PeopleUnited says

The reason is that the evils you attribute to religion do not originate from religion.

Bullshit. When Christians hold up "God hates fags" signs and back that claim up with Bible verses, it is intrinsic to their religion. You are whitewashing your religion.

PeopleUnited says

According to the left, we must hold people accountable for the thoughts they think.

1. The left is conservative, which is why they believe this.
2. The right believes the same damn thing just with different triggers.
3. Christianity has always had "thought crimes" punished with eternal damnation. Not believing in your false god is a thought crime, and Christians say those guilty of the thoughts of disbelief burn in hell for all eternity.

Every argument you have made is hypocritical.

PeopleUnited says

Thought crime seeks to prosecute the REASON people commit crime.

Take that up with the courts. They do consider intent and forethought when deciding among first degree murder, second degree murder, voluntary manslaughter, and involuntary manslaughter.

PeopleUnited says

Only a hypocrite would equate Islam with the other world religions while simultaneously arguing that mathematics and engineering are not sciences.

How the fuck are those two things related?

Plus, I did not equate Islam with other religions. I do not even equate the specific religions within Islam with other religions within Islam.

I have stated that all religions share the same fundamental flaw, faith, which by definition is the core of religion. Faith, the belief without evidence and even despite counter-evidence, is inherently bad. You have demonstrated how faith makes people irrational throughout this thread.

PeopleUnited says

Fine, math uses a priori logic. On the other hand scientific method is based on observation rather than deduction. And scientists use math and observation to better describe and understand the natural world. And engineers use math and observation to create new ways of solving problems. But at the end of the day you are just arguing semantics.

Do you even read what you write? That's semantics in the same way that cats and submarines are different only in semantics.

PeopleUnited says

What you fail to acknowledge is that math, science, and engineering are things that humans as intelligent beings do. It takes an intelligent being to observe and record those observations. It takes an intelligent being to use a priori logic.

The square root of two is an irrational number regardless of whether or not human beings ever existed to discover this truth. The truth of a priori statements has nothing to do with the existence of human beings. The laws of physics, although not a priori as far as we know, also have nothing to do with the existences of human beings. In contrast, the fairy tales you tell have everything to do with shit some dumb human with despicable agendas made up.

[stupid comment limit]

PeopleUnited says

The reason Dan, that you cannot tell us why humans do evil using math, science and engineering as you so boldly claim, is that math, science and engineering are also human actions.

That does not follow at all. Psychology, especially evolutionary psychology, most certainly does explain human behavior. The more these sciences advance, the more detailed their explanations are, and the better we can use this knowledge to make the world a better place.

In contrast, religion has done nothing but held back morality. The greatest moral issue of our time is climate change, and yet Christianity specifically holds back our society from dealing with this moral issue. There is nothing more immoral that permanently impoverishing and threatening the existence of future generations.

PeopleUnited says

God on the other hand makes it easy to understand why humans do evil. He tells us in His word that every human being is corrupt and in need of a Savior.

That explains NOTHING. Being brainwashed is not the same thing as understanding a subject. There is nothing enlightening about anything in the Bible including the crappy verses you quoted. They add zero understanding.

PeopleUnited says

The Holocaust, while being a horrible act of violence against all of humanity, was not the cause of World War II.

I did not state it was, and you are changing the conversation. Religion most certainly was a vehicle for Hitler's and the Nazi's rise to power. To deny that is a lie.

PeopleUnited says

It is a simple question. What motivates a priest to molest?

The failure of Christianity to turn it's most devout followers into good human beings.

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

Dan you have claimed moral superiority to people you call religious.

Where?

So you deny that you have said that religion is immoral or that religion does not live up to your morality?

Strategist says

PeopleUnited says

It is a simple question. What motivates a priest to molest?

The failure of Christianity to turn it's most devout followers into good human beings.

Exactly! Religion cannot save anyone. I actually hate religion almost as much as Dan. But I recognize that we need to allow people to believe what they want to believe even if it is destructive. I say religion cannot save anyone because it cannot, only Jesus can save. And religion is what people do to try and please or serve God. In reality there is nothing you can do to please God. That is there is nothing you can do to earn His favor. He wants to help everyone, to forgive everyone, but in order to be forgiven you must first accept that 1. you are a sinner worthy of condemnation 2. that Jesus paid the price of your condemnation on the cross and rose again to conquer death for you, that though you may die, yet shall you live also.

PeopleUnited says

Religion cannot save anyone.

Christianity saves millions of people in our day and age.

FortWayne says

PeopleUnited says

Religion cannot save anyone.

Christianity saves millions of people in our day and age.

Well, I know what you mean, but it is not the religion. It is Jesus. There will be more "christians" in hell than there will be Christians in Heaven.

Matthew 7

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Dan8267 says

That does not follow at all. Psychology, especially evolutionary psychology, most certainly does explain human behavior. The more these sciences advance, the more detailed their explanations are, and the better we can use this knowledge to make the world a better place.

So why are these sciences not teaching us all to be better humans? It seems to me that academia is actually pushing a far left conservative agenda and creating more problems than it is solving (engineers and other scientists may be the the exception however even engineers cannot guarantee that their solutions will not be used for evil).

Dan8267 says

Translation: Rape happens everywhere in the world, so rape clubs can't be a bad thing.

Rape does not happen uniformly everywhere. Neither do the evils created by religion. Culture matters. If you want to know what a truly religious culture is like, look towards the Middle East.

Straw man, and cop out. but I do agree that culture matters. Early America (pre 1963) was a religious culture. In 1962 and 1963 two court cases had long term implications.

On June 25, 1962, the United States Supreme Court decided in Engel v. Vitale that a prayer approved by the New York Board of Regents for use in schools violated the First Amendment because it represented establishment of religion. In 1963, in Abington School District v. Schempp, the court decided against Bible readings in public schools along the same lines.

Since 1963, Jeynes said there have been five negative developments in the nation’s public schools:

• Academic achievement has plummeted, including SAT scores.

• Increased rate of out-of-wedlock births

• Increase in illegal drug use

• Increase in juvenile crime

• Deterioration of school behavior

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/penny-starr/education-expert-removing-bible-prayer-public-schools-has-caused-decline

There are consequences to the secular culture of modern America.

PeopleUnited says

He wants to help everyone, to forgive everyone, but in order to be forgiven you must first accept that 1. you are a sinner worthy of condemnation 2. that Jesus paid the price of your condemnation on the cross and rose again to conquer death for you, that though you may die, yet shall you live also.

For me to accept this Jesus Christ nonsense he or anyone would have to prove above 1. and 2.

He has proved it. The only question is will you accept it before it is too late? You are free to reject it till your dying breath, however you are free to accept it till then as well.

2 Peter 3King James Version (KJV)

3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.