patrick.net

That's not surprising. What I pay for health insurance, or what my employer pays for it is more than twice what I pay in state income taxes.

APOCALYPSEFUCK_is_ADORABLE says

expensively sick.

The issue is the absurd overcharges and mandatory subsidies for toxic placebos, excessive diagnostic radiation, and other disproved modalities that turn every prospective patient into a potentially infinite subsidized revenue model. I have literally seen advertised on TV a drug for blind people who lose track of their circadian rhythm, presumably because they don't have alarm clocks. 'Don't want to spend $10 on an alarm clock? We'll prescribe pills instead, don't worry about the $10k/yr cost, we'll shift that onto your neighbors' kids.' You should see all the side effects flashed in fine print on the screen. It's a comedy and a tragedy. The MSM are making a killing from all the ad revenue, which is why they always run the pro-Obamneycare narrative. Even PBS "news" hour is now sponsored by the company that created the Website and then got billions more federal money to fix it, and continues to collect even bigger subsidies via its HMO arm. Life expectancy is actually shorter now than before Obamneycare hit with full force in 2014.

Seriously, if voters cared enough about providing actual essential medical coverage, we could do that for less than government spends currently, and even include free vaccines. All else, all the crap people argue about on TV and PatNet, is all about the additional markups that shouldn't even be happening let alone covered.

curious2 says

Don't want to spend $10 on an alarm clock? We'll prescribe pills instead, don't worry about the $10k/yr cost, we'll shift that onto your neighbors' kids.' Y

Until I saw ad, didn't even know there was such a thing as non-24

@curious2

If I wanted to start a primary care practice (as opposed to being someone else's bitch), what would you look for in such a practice?

lostand confused says

total $400 billion price tag.

WTF. That's $10,000 per year for every man woman and child. I'm all for health care for all, but this goes beyond stupidity.

It's great that for profit healthcare businesses aren't price controlled.
No cash! DIE! FAILURES!

Strategist says

I'm all for health care for all,

Think you should edit that?

HEY YOU says

It's great that for profit healthcare businesses aren't price controlled.

No cash! DIE! FAILURES!

Strategist says

I'm all for health care for all,

Think you should edit that?

OK, if it costs $40,000 per year to provide health care to a family of four, I won't support it. I'd rather stick with the system we have today.

That's more money that half the US population makes (per person income). Are they insane, that sounds like the most inefficient system in the world.

MMR says

what would you look for in such a practice?

Since we live in an era of mandatory insurance, I regret to say that insurance coverage is a significant factor. Beyond that, I look for honesty, access to records and vaccines, email/website, and answering questions. Alas, the insurance HMO doctors in SF are often bad: illegally withholding records, conditioning vaccines on unnecessary x-rays and other tests (DoJ prosecuted at least one kickback scheme, but much of it is technically legal), spending all their time on tests with no time left for questions. I'm probably a reverse barometer for starting a financially successful practice though, because I don't want all the pills on TV.

I remember a dentist in NYC who built a successful practice without much (if any) advertising by locating in the middle of a residential complex that contained 2,000 apartments. The complex had a nice center courtyard, with the building management office and his practice. All the neighbors recommended him, especially the women with kids and/or dogs, who tended to know the most people. He gave reliable advice without pushing anything, and had a sense of humor. He continues his practice in the same neighborhood, though now a few blocks away. The area and patient population are mostly successful business/professional families, maybe upper middle but not super-rich.

MMR says

@curious2

If I wanted to start a primary care practice (as opposed to being someone else's bitch), what would you look for in such a practice?

Cash only, so you don't need to employ five ornery fat bitches to do the coding and haggling and arguing with customer and insurance company

Or bring back the original American model: go mobile. No need to pay exorbitant rent for office space, just drive around in your mobile office. Can better assess patients by seeing their home environment and their kitchen. Parlayed with an affinity for nutrition based solutions and a healthy fear of any drug sold by American prescription mills

After hearing all the horror stories about POS veterinarians, we found a Mobile Vet and he is awesome and I recommend him to everyone. He's not even much anymore expensive compared to B&M vets

That's how PCPs operated in this country 100 years ago. Bring it back

So you believe that the costs will increase when the middle man is removed and the administration simplified??

errc says

Cash only

As a business owner I tell you that if you see "Cash Only", it almost always means they avoid paying taxes by not declaring it, and they hire illegals instead of Americans since illegals are paid in cash (way below minimum wage), there are no records that government to force eVerify on them.

Cash only are better to avoid these days in CA.

Our entire corrupt lobbyist system is about trapping ordinary people and then exploiting them.

Medical care is perfect for this. The system is working as designed.

Strategist says

$400 billion divided by a population of almost $40 million is $10,000 per year per person. Where is that money gonna come from?

Half of that number was the 200 billion it now brings in that pays for non heath insurance items and services. So if the typical person paid an additional 5K, but then didn't have to pay for health Insurance and their employer paid them the over 10K they pay for their insurance now, it's actually a win for everyone, no ?

How much if the illegals were excluded?

"The idea behind Senate Bill 562 is to overhaul California’s insurance marketplace, reduce overall health care costs and expand coverage to everyone in the state regardless of immigration status...."

My state income taxes cost me at least 3X what my healthcare costs. You guys don't know how to shop.

Blurtman says

How much if the illegals were excluded?

This would increase illegal immigration and an influx of sick people from other states. People would come here for free services and then go back.
This think is Fucked on Arrival.

marcus says

Strategist says

$400 billion divided by a population of almost $40 million is $10,000 per year per person. Where is that money gonna come from?

Half of that number was the 200 billion it now brings in that pays for non heath insurance items and services. So if the typical person paid an additional 5K, but then didn't have to pay for health Insurance and their employer paid them the over 10K they pay for their insurance now, it's actually a win for everyone, no ?

?? Confusing.

FortWayne says

errc says

Cash only

As a business owner I tell you that if you see "Cash Only", it almost always means they avoid paying taxes by not declaring it, and they hire illegals instead of Americans since illegals are paid in cash (way below minimum wage), there are no records that government to force eVerify on them.

Cash only are better to avoid these days in CA.

The DMV only accepts personal checks and money orders. So amend cash only to cash equivalents. No accepting credit cards so the business inflates all prices 3% just in case they pay Visa/MC. Also, ban all private insurance. They serve no utility to the consumer, rather they bloat costs and complexity by an order of magnitude.

I've asked countless times for people that defend our system of private health insurers, to make their case. Where is their value add? What purpose do they serve? I won't hold my breath

zzyzzx says

My state income taxes cost me at least 3X what my healthcare costs. You guys don't know how to shop.

Or they are not "paying their fair share".

They tried this on Colorado, but when everyone found out they were going to double the size of the state budget, it didn't pass. I think it was called proposition 69. Seriously.

Scare tactics work on the feeble minded

OK all you Freeloading California Tax Payers. Get out your pocket book. There are a lot of people out there who don't work and are depending on YOU to pay for them!!

casandra, when you have nothing intelligent to say, better keep quiet

casandra says

OK all you Freeloading California Tax Payers. Get out your pocket book. There are a lot of people out there who don't work and are depending on YOU to pay for them!!

FP says

casandra, when you have nothing intelligent to say, better keep quiet

She is saying the same thing Brown said.

Strategist, don't make me repeat myself.

rando says

Our entire corrupt lobbyist system is about trapping ordinary people and then exploiting them.

Medical care is perfect for this. The system is working as designed.

Debt is slavery Patrick and you are correct. The Medical Industrial Complex has driven up the cost of health care to where it is unaffordable for the majority. It is the system we live under. A system where if you are not independently wealthy, you are owned by those who are.

errc says

The DMV only accepts personal checks and money orders.

Bullshit: I've just renewed my car's registration last week and paid with credit card. No "convenience fee" either.

Strategist says

This would increase illegal immigration and an influx of sick people from other states. People would come here for free services and then go back.

This think is Fucked on Arrival.

Absolutely, but as those sympathetic to illegals infiltrate CA government, look for logic to fly out the window.

Blurtman says

Strategist says

This would increase illegal immigration and an influx of sick people from other states. People would come here for free services and then go back.


This think is Fucked on Arrival.

Absolutely, but as those sympathetic to illegals infiltrate CA government, look for logic to fly out the window.

I'm been called a freakin socialist for supporting healthcare and education till PhD at taxpayer expense. But it needs to be affordable. We should only have basic health care coverage at tax payer expense, with the rest getting picked up by individuals or employers. Same for eduction, where only those who are qualified should get free education after high school.
In other words......Live Within Our Means.

curious2 says

Since we live in an era of mandatory insurance, I regret to say that insurance coverage is a significant factor.

So maybe a hybrid concierge or dpc approach?

What about accessibility and patient panels?

FortWayne says

As a business owner I tell you that if you see "Cash Only", it almost always means they avoid paying taxes by not declaring it

Interesting...I think a cousin of mine in Arcadia basically said there are a lot of illegal pockets in every town in LA county and that a practice catering to illegals would essentially be a cash-only enterprise.

Two friends/acquaintances of his have armored cars to pick up cash at least once a day if I recall correctly.

errc says

Cash only, so you don't need to employ five ornery fat bitches

Fat sick and nearly dead is wrong message to send patients.

MMR says

So maybe a hybrid concierge or dpc approach?

What about accessibility and patient panels?

I've actually experienced that, and it seems to work fine. One place had negotiated a capitation deal with an HMO, so copayments were trivial, mainly symbolic. Most things don't require meeting specifically with a doctor. The pierced&tattooed person who injects me with vaccines has a real talent for sticking needles into people, but I have no idea what formal education she might have nor how many other people she pierces on a routine basis. She does follow all the right precautions and is also quite cheerful about providing vaccine information, e.g. material safety data and batch/lot, in case of a recall. E-mail and website are available 24/7 for questions, answers follow during business hours.

errc says

Can better assess patients by seeing their home environment and their kitchen. Parlayed with an affinity for nutrition based solutions and a healthy fear of any drug sold by American prescription mills

Definitely lacking at the primary care level.

Strategist says

marcus says

Strategist says

$400 billion divided by a population of almost $40 million is $10,000 per year per person. Where is that money gonna come from?

Half of that number was the 200 billion it now brings in that pays for non heath insurance items and services. So if the typical person paid an additional 5K, but then didn't have to pay for health Insurance and their employer paid them the over 10K they pay for their insurance now, it's actually a win for everyone, no ?

?? Confusing.

Okay, let me try to make it easier for you. That 10K per person would pay for all state taxes and health care too. Where as a lot of families pay well over 10K for just their health insurance now.

Still not getting it ?

marcus says

Okay, let me try to make it easier for you. That 10K per person would pay for all state taxes and health care too. Where as a lot of families pay well over 10K for just their health insurance now.

Still not getting it ?

My understanding is, the cost of health care alone would be $10K per year per person. All other costs would continue on their trend.
Correct me if i am missing something.

Strategist says

the cost of health care alone would be...All other costs would continue on their trend.

If the plan continues to cover all the junk advertised on TV, then yes, the costs would start out high and continue on trend. If coverage were limited to actual health care, cost would fall by half, but CA has no border control, so large numbers of indigent sick people would wagon train from Texas to CA. Single payer fails at the state level because (a) states have no border control and (b) nobody has proposed only covering emergencies and vaccines, rather than the full gamut of chronic whatever. The universal risk of emergencies is the stick that lobbyists use to force more people into the comprehensive insurance policies that they've larded up with overpriced junk; they don't let you buy one without the other. In theory, states could provide free emergency care and vaccine coverage, but lobbyists work the state capitols nearly as thoroughly as the federal one.

curious2 says

Strategist says

the cost of health care alone would be...All other costs would continue on their trend.

If the plan continues to cover all the junk advertised on TV, then yes, the costs would start out high and continue on trend. If coverage were limited to actual health care, cost would fall by half, but CA has no border control, so large numbers of indigent sick people would wagon train from Texas to CA. Single payer fails at the state level because (a) states have no border control and (b) nobody has proposed only covering emergencies and vaccines, rather than the full gamut of chronic whatever. The universal risk of emergencies is the stick that lobbyists use to force more people into the comprehensive insurance policies that they've larded up with overpriced junk; they don't let you buy one without the other. In theory, states could provide free emergency care and vaccine coverag...

Yes, that is why I believe we should provide only basic coverage for all. If you want a sex change operation, heart transplant for a 90 year old, or viagra just to get a hard on, get your own supplemental private insurance, because the tax payer can't afford it.
It should be based on a national health plan, and not for foreigners who have not paid into the system.

marcus says

Okay, let me try to make it easier for you. That 10K per person would pay for all state taxes and health care too. Where as a lot of families pay well over 10K for just their health insurance now.

Still not getting it ?

I believe there are only about 19 million people actually working in California. So you might need to reconsider your math.

The California State and Local government can't even run the budget they have now for basic services like infrastructure without going bankrupt. What faith do you have that California government is sober enough to manage 400 more billion?