patrick.net

That's heart wrenching

The should have taken McCain with them.

Tenpoundbass says

The should have taken McCain with them.

I want to ask you if your health care covers mental health, but Patrick would probably hit the uncivil button, so I won't. Somehow, you wishing McCain is dead multiple times throughout the day is civil. Perhaps I should only question the mental health of anybody who would bother wishing death on McCain for his vote.

ObamaCare is a complete disaster.

We need to wait to hear the details to see what was going on with these people. Blaming Obamacare at this point seems weird, especially because Obamacare likely subsidized their insurance. I'm basing it on their age bracket and that they stated that they had big health issues. Obamacare used revenue from young to subsidize the old and revenue from healthy to subsidize the sick.

I'd also want to see the details, but there are many BIG problems with Obamacare:

* It's a tax, ultimately enforced at gunpoint, which extracts arbitrary amounts of money from the public and hands it over to private insurance companies. Not good.
* There is no upper limit on how high premiums can go.
* It does less than zero to contain extortionist medical prices for simple things like aspirin in a hospital.
* It does not require any provider to publish a list of prices so that consumers can shop for lower cost health care without spending 100% of their waking hours on the phone, mostly on hold.

They have to keep some parts of the economy at home growing. Outside of education/housing/healthcare, what else will grow?

Heraclitusstudent says

Outside of education/housing/healthcare, what else will grow?

Reliance on those money-sinks to create an "economy" is a consequence of the globalist devastation of American manufacturing in search of short term profits at the expense of every factory between the coasts.

rando says

* It's a tax, ultimately enforced at gunpoint

It's not extracted at gunpoint. There is merely a monetary penalty for not using it. It's a forced insurance program, and has strong similarities to social security, medicaid, medicare, and car insurance, which is mandatory for anybody who wants to drive. rando says

* There is no upper limit on how high premiums can go

There's also no upper limit to how high the price of bread or rental housing will go.

rando says

* It does less than zero to contain extortionist medical prices ..
* It does not require any provider to publish a list of prices so that consumers can shop for lower cos

These go together, and they are a huge problem. Strangely, I didn't hear any debate about fixing this from Trump or the Senate. Some parts of the system are intractable anyway. You are not going to negotiate for prices when you have had a heart attack. It only works for non-urgent issues.

Prices of insurance would come down if
1) We stopped subsidizing it with tax cuts for people who choose to spend their money in the approved way.
2) We started offering plans that subsidize good behavior (i.e. working out and eating well)
3) We started incentivizing the individual to reap the savings from seeking lower cost solutions.
4) We stopped incentivizing providers to do more procedures and start incentivizing outcomes
or
5) We scrap trying to use free market to run basic health care.

YesYNot says

It's a forced insurance program, and has strong similarities to social security, medicaid, medicare, and car insurance, which is mandatory for anybody who wants to drive.

It's very different from government programs like social security, medicaid, medicare in that you are forced to hand over money to private corporations which lobby congress to get legal authorization to take ever more.

Car insurance is similar in that it forces citizens to pay private companies in order to drive, but that's not nearly as bad as forcing everyone in a country to pay potentially unlimited amounts to private insurance corporations simply because they are alive.

YesYNot says

There's also no upper limit to how high the price of bread or rental housing will go.

There is meaningful competition in both bread and rental housing. Those are markets. You have the ability to shop and lower your costs, or to replace bread with rice, for example.

Medical care is not a market because:

* Medical prices are very well-hidden to the point where it is impossible to do accurate comparison shopping. There is no price list.
* Some care is not optional. You will die without it. In such a case, the price must be fixed by law or we will simply have extortion. Which is already happening.

YesYNot says

Strangely, I didn't hear any debate about fixing this from Trump

Trump did talk about requiring medical providers to publish price lists, but only during the campaign. He has not mentioned it since the election afaik, which is disappointing.

They lived close to Wall Street with their two children, Isabella, 20, and Joseph, 19.

But they still managed to sent their two schools to private school, at the elite Loyola School on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. Tuition at the Jesuit-run Catholic school is $8,905 for the current year.

So these people cheat on their taxes, live in the center of Manhattan, send their kids to private school, but it's healthcare that was their problem? I doubt it. Their credit binge caught up with them and they couldn't borrow any more money. Trying to blame this on healthcare is a cop out.

YesYNot says

It's not extracted at gunpoint.

Uh yes it is. Anything that is enforced by the government is ultimately enforced at gun point.

Do you even know how governments work?

Seriously, don't pay your taxes. Don't pay your ObamaCare fine.

Guess what happens to you? Eventually guys with guns take you away, and enforce further penalties upon you personally.

theoakman says

their two children, Isabella, 20, and Joseph, 19.

A sad legacy to leave your children.

I agree it's sad, but maybe they had the idea that they were helping their children by saving them from dealing with their parents' long-term decline.

My own parents both got cancer in 2003 (dad leukemia and mom brain tumor) and went downhill pretty continuously until both dying in 2008. They were really good about protecting us kids from what they could. They did not want to be a burden. It was still epically hard for everyone, but I appreciate what they did, especially my dad, who took care of my mom literally until a week before he died. She died a few months later in a nursing home.

rando says

My own parents both got cancer in 2003

Sounds like great parents and so sorry you had this experience! We need more like them!

Goran_K says

Uh yes it is. Anything that is enforced by the government is ultimately enforced at gun point.

No I am Elian Gonzalez (rolleyes)
It's enforced by a monetary penalty in the form of a tax. Nobody has had a gun stuck in their face that I've heard of.

rando says

He has not mentioned it since the election afaik, which is disappointing.

Well, I remember telling you before the election that it was a great idea, but it is not going to be implemented. He's only disappointing if you believed that he was competent and that he cared about those issues. He clearly didn't care and is not competent at using his 'bully pulpit.' Ironically, he takes the 'bully' part too literally.

rando says

It's very different from government programs like social security, medicaid, medicare in that you are forced to hand over money to private corporations which lobby congress to get legal authorization to take ever more.

Social security and medicare require paying up to $11K per year per person (over 100K income). If you count the employer portion, it's around $18K. It's a bit lower at the moment. What's the penalty for not buying insurance? $700 per adult. So, if you don't want to buy it, the tax penalty is much smaller than the social security / medicare tax. Given the tiny penalty, it's hard to understand why people argue that Obamacare is terrible, but those other programs are good. They are quite similar. Actually, the Obamacare penalty needs to grow to make the thing work, and it should grow without gnashing of teeth by people who are already paying much more for other things.

YesYNot says

Actually, the Obamacare penalty needs to grow to make the thing work,

I think that is what will happen--the penalty may seem small now but will grow much larger.

FortWayne says

That's heart wrenching

There are consequences to voting republican and letting capitalism control essentials like health care.

Dan8267 says

letting capitalism control essentials like health care

Capitalism does not control healthcare. Currently, healthcare is an oligopoly with hidden prices and more state spending than private spending.

Ironically, if they committed a crime like robing a bank with a note, they'd had gotten free health care in jail.

rando says

Capitalism does not control healthcare.

Health insurance, private practices, and hospitals are all capitalistic. The owners could easily publish prices if they wanted to. They don't. It's not the state forcing prices to be hidden. It's the business owners.

YesYNot says

It's enforced by a monetary penalty in the form of a tax. Nobody has had a gun stuck in their face that I've heard of.

You're being purposefully obtuse. That's how your know your argument is completely without value.

Thanks for proving my point.

The story says it was student loan debt that did it. This debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Debt related to health care costs is. He also had not been paying his taxes. I did not read anything about concern over health care costs.

Unstated is whether he is also a victim of racism. A lot of folks who cannot get into medical school will pursue alternate medical careers, i.e., chiropractor, podiatrist, osteopath, etc. This poor fellow was white. Maybe he was denied admission to medical school due to affirmative action racism, and had to settle for chiropractor.

But he must have had mental health issues.

Terrible story. May God rest their souls.

Dan8267 says

FortWayne says

That's heart wrenching

There are consequences to voting republican and letting capitalism control essentials like health care.

Obamacare isn't Republican.

But Democrats made those people feel like committing suicide and leaving the orphans to the state is the responsible thing to do. Very grown up right?

Blurtman says

Terrible story. May God rest their souls.

There is no god, and there are no souls. If there were, then death would have no sting. That is the entire purpose of afterlife myths. Of course, if death has no sting, then stories such as this are not tragic. The fact that we all acknowledge this story as tragic proves that deep down inside we all disbelieve the myths we tell ourselves to avoid thinking about death. It's better to acknowledge your mortality and make use of your limited time existing then to persist in a comfortable delusion.

YesYNot says

Strangely, I didn't hear any debate about fixing this from Trump

Trump is working on up front pricing.

I'd like to believe this.

Got a link?

You ignorant sluts! "You gonna learn today!"
Barack Obama sets all medical procedures,equipment & drug prices.
He's been able to hold the Free Market in check.

Don't really know what it had to do with health care. I know more than a few professionals who think that life owes them a lifestyle, rather than accepting what money they actually have. The species comes complete with progressive debt, unpaid taxes, student loans and serial bankruptcies. To see some of them acting rich with late model expensive cars, large homes, and very spendy habits, you might never guess.

These guys just decided to soak every sucker for whatever credit they could get as long as they could, and then check out when the gig was up.

Dan8267 says

There is no god, and there are no souls.

It's a figure of speech, and expression of sympathy for the death of these troubled folks. And you are certainly entitled to your beliefs, but I hope you aren't one of those proselytizers that want to inflict them on everyone else.

Dan8267 says

There is no god, and there are no souls

Straight from the maw of the Soviet Union.

Hoping is a waste of time. He just did.
Blurtman says

Dan8267 says

There is no god, and there are no souls.

It's a figure of speech, and expression of sympathy for the death of these troubled folks. And you are certainly entitled to your beliefs, but I hope you aren't one of those proselytizers that want to inflict them on everyone else.

YesYNot says

Obamacare used revenue from young to subsidize the old and revenue from healthy to subsidize the sick.

I was trying to figure out how you could possibly believe that, but found eventually a way in which the first part is true. American hospitals and drug companies charge 100x more than hospitals and drug companies anywhere else in the world for the same services. The money goes to executives, lobbyists, and shareholders, who tend to be older than the young people whose taxes and future debt burden are paying for all this deficit spending. So, yes, a lot of (mostly older) people are getting paid, mostly at the expense of the young.

As for subsidizing "the sick," I've seen vagrants getting paid apparently by Medicaid practices, if that helps you. Addiction is a type of sick, so maybe those kickbacks are what you meant by subsidizing the sick: Medicaid practices paying vagrants to submit to more tests and prescriptions.

Otherwise, consider an "old" 64yo who gets sick and suffers a night in a hospital and a week of antibiotics. In other countries, that might cost $100 total. Here, it would cost more than $10k. He pays his Obamneycare insurance premium, deductible, copayments, coinsurance, out of pocket maximum, etc. At the end of the day, it costs him $10k. That doesn't sound like much of a subsidy to him. Even if it happens twice in the same winter, he's still paying >10x what he would have paid in Mexico, for example.

Obamneycare is like a high wire act, raising the price of everything even higher than ever before. If you navigate the Byzantine rules, you can end up with out-of-pocket costs similar to what your total retail cost would have been across the border in Mexico. The whole miasma of premiums and "subsidies" are merely corporate welfare, enabling the American system to continue charging more than anywhere else.

If there was a god and there were souls and you felt you were going straight to hell then death would have a galactic sting.
See how this works when one applies a modicum of logic?

Dan8267 says

There is no god, and there are no souls. If there were, then death would have no sting.

rando says

* There is no upper limit on how high premiums can go.

There are NO cost controls, none. Forcibly enrolling the younger workers has not lowered premiums or costs or even slowed them down one iota.

Catastrophic Medical Care + Cash. The very indigent on medicare. Drugs to be limited to cost + 10%.

That or medicare for all, with private law firms given the right to "Privateer" on corrupt/fraud billing charges and they keep a percentage. They'd be far more effective in busting corrupt hospital admins than the gov.

Blurtman says

And you are certainly entitled to your beliefs, but I hope you aren't one of those proselytizers that want to inflict them on everyone else.

If people didn't believe in false gods and afterlives, then countless people would not have died needlessly including the victims of 9/11 and a teenage girl who committed suicide to see her daddy in heaven.

I'm not the one inflicting beliefs onto victims. That's religion.

P N Dr Lo R says

Dan8267 says

There is no god, and there are no souls

Straight from the maw of the Soviet Union.

Your logic: The leaders of the Soviet Union were atheists, therefore all atheists are Soviets.

The inescapable corollary: The leaders of the Nazis were Christians, therefore all Christians are Nazis.

So which is it? Are you going to admit being wrong or are you going to engage in further hypocrisy?