patrick.net

Strategist, you are not alone in your thinking. The most important effect of H1B is brain drain on the potential peer-competitors; i.e. Russia, China and India losing their smartest engineers to the US. If we don't get another way of importing IQ>120 brains, capital will go overseas to fund companies in those countries . . . and people in the US will be much less secure as those smart people stay in their home countries and work for their governments/militaries. While we here are recently gradually drifting away from the spirit of 1776 (the year when both Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations and Jefferson's Declaration of Independence were published), most of those old-world countries are fundamentally pre-Smithian mercantilistic socialistic central planners and war-mongers.

The real problem with taxpayers being drafted into subsidizing particular industries is two fold: the forcible tax collection (robbery under another name) and the subsidy (corruption under another name). Do government subsidies ever bring better result in any industry? Hardly: government subsidies in the form of public education produce illiteracy and innumeracy; government subsidies on higher education send millions IQ<120 kids into taking on debt slavery "studying" religions like AGW and SJW; government subsidies on big science wasted a generation of scientists on political projects like the moon shot.

FP says

Strategist says

how can it be good throwing out people who pay into our social security, and keeping in people who don't?

The latter do dirty, hard work that nobody wants for minimal pay - almost free work. And everybody knows that Americans love free stuff!

The former take good paying jobs from our children. Our children are entitled to these jobs, 'cause we pay taxes! And as you must know, in America everything is for the taxpayer. Everything that exists is a product of the taxpayer. The taxpayer must be respected. Taxpayer - how proud that sounds!

We have a surplus of of low skilled people. We have a shortage of skilled workers. We need skilled workers who pay into the system, and not unskilled people who drain funds from our system.

Strategist says

We have a shortage of skilled workers

BS, we don't.

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

Strategist says

We have a shortage of skilled workers

BS, we don't.

We only have a shortage of people who are willing to pay decent wages. If they could push everyone down to minimum wage, they would.

FortWayne says

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

Strategist says

We have a shortage of skilled workers

BS, we don't.

We only have a shortage of people who are willing to pay decent wages. If they could push everyone down to minimum wage, they would.

Lets think logically and not emotionally.
We are the world's largest producer of technology. Both, China and India are producing more STEM professionals. How can we not have have a shortage of skilled STEM professionals? How are we gonna remain number one in technology if we don't produce the right talent?

Strategist says

s. How can we not have have a shortage of skilled STEM professionals?

Because it only takes a few great people to produce amazing results in technology. Millions of Indian IT workers decrease productivity instead of increase it by complicating what can be done simply. That's why last year was huge for layoffs in India.

Reality says

China and India losing their smartest engineers to the US.

Ha! As of lately, the Chinese come, learn, and go back to China. Even worse, the Chinese have set these centers where they invite foreign scientists to work for periods of time (sometimes a few months, sometimes years). The foreigners pass on to the Chinese all the expertise they have + help them set up their labs. In a few years when they are no longer needed, they will be gone. I have a few colleagues and friends earning second salaries during the summers this way.

The US government needs to wake up to the fact China is a competitor and a potential future enemy.

Lots of concern from H1B at the biotech I work at. Trying to apply for, "The lottery!", asap.

Big proportion of foreigners in biotechs.

I see my industry slipping away quickly to China for reasons mentioned above (from all sides) AND their lack of regs on stem-cell, human genetic mods etc.

I've heard wall street sucks up our bestest STEM grads. Did meet one guy who wrote code for a hedge fund when I was in the bay area. He couldn't legally trade stock and had to get up early for the market opening. Didn't stay on the West coast long.

FortWayne says

We only have a shortage of people who are willing to pay decent wages. If they could push everyone down to minimum wage, they would.

This.

Most of those H1B's who come in from overseas know very little about tech. They "dump" a few certifications, and wallah, they're a pro

some people here obviously don't work in STEM. only 20% of H1B visa people are smarter than the average STEM workers, 20% more are the ones needed to meet demand (but not smarter) but the rest 60% are actually dumber and they are only brought here to bring down wages.

FP says

But by bringing already grown up and educated people from abroad "people" pay less taxes in subsidizing child upbringing in this country.

If you're saying what I think you're saying: Give foreigners professional jobs that were created by spending on Defense and R&D.

But it's great because then the people save money when their kid becomes a lifetime shelf stocker at Walmart, not needing any education.

FP says

Ha! As of lately, the Chinese come, learn, and go back to China. Even worse, the Chinese have set these centers where they invite foreign scientists to work for periods of time (sometimes a few months, sometimes years). The foreigners pass on to the Chinese all the expertise they have + help them set up their labs. In a few years when they are no longer needed, they will be gone. I have a few colleagues and friends earning second salaries during the summers this way.

I doubt that "Industrial Strategy and Planning" by Chinese would be any more successful than those of Japanese in the 1980s-90's or of the Soviets half a century before the Japanese. In case anyone missed the history lesson: the Japanese spent $billions (real money back then) on their enormous zaibatsu to develop mainframe computers while missing internet and biotech entirely; soviets churned out tens of thousands of biplanes and tanks but missed the importance of radio and motor transport, rendering their tank formation combat effectiveness only 10-20% of table value, probably would have been conquered by the Nazi's if not for the massive transfer of American radio and Jeeps/trucks.

A central-planning socialist regime/economy can't figured out where to allocate resources, at least when they don't have clear models/examples to copy from.

What makes the US efficient in new discoveries is the relatively more free-wheeling economy and the market place, with relatively less intervention by the political class and their cronies. When those copy economies overseas implode (and they probably will in the next year or two as the next financial crisis hits), those human talents will want to stay here. We shouldn't have a policy of kicking out those talents as they would then work for the militaries overseas. Military and waging war (for short-term war aims) is one field where centralized planning can work (if one is not concerned about massive attrition of incompetents, like Stalin did in the first year of WWII eastern front). Immigration of the smart (not by educational credentials but factually competent as proven in market place) is actually a type of immigration that makes sense, as opposed to the importation of the masses of semi-retards that the Democrats are so fond of; the ones derive their livelihood from the market place also tend to vote for pro-market policies after they become citizens. . . after all, that's precisely how America became America before the (re)invention of welfare state.

The problem with US STEM majors is that the high cost of education, and lack of education in entrepreneurship. What the students should be taught in the US is not how to be staff engineers at big companies, but how to hire cheaper engineers from whatever trees they fall from in order to develop new goods/services that can cater to consumers.

anotheraccount says

Strategist says

s. How can we not have have a shortage of skilled STEM professionals?

Because it only takes a few great people to produce amazing results in technology. Millions of Indian IT workers decrease productivity instead of increase it by complicating what can be done simply.

Yes, it only takes a few great people to produce amazing results that benefit us all. Those few great people are one in a million. If we have only a few people to begin with, our odds of finding that one diamond in the rough is greatly diminished.
I still don't understand the logic of keeping out the wealth makers, and keeping in the wealth takers.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

If you're saying what I think you're saying: Give foreigners professional jobs that were created by spending on Defense and R&D.
But it's great because then the people save money when their kid becomes a lifetime shelf stocker at Walmart, not needing any education.

Shelf stockers are being replaced by robots, either the brick+motar companies do that in the stores or Amazon does it for them by taking away the sales revenue. I don't think any of us would argue for the banning of robots, so that some kids can keep their restocking jobs instead of being pressured by reality into finding other jobs.

Likewise, if staff engineers can be had cheap somewhere (can be from Mars or falling from a tree / the sky, for our discussion), perhaps someday even computers themselves can replace 3nd-rate programmers, do we really want to create an artificial market place where kids are encouraged to take on more debt in the hopes of getting and keeping one of those artificially protected jobs?

What really needs to be done is eliminating the conditions attaching the H1B personnel to the big corporations sponsoring the visa. That feudalistic attachment create a non-level playing field between big corporations (which are net job destroyers) vs. small/new businesses (which are net job creators) that don't have the political connections to import what amounts to bonded labor. The removal of attachment would also reduce incentive for the big corporations to import entirely for the low labor cost created by that bondage, as the imported worker would then be free to move to a different company, thereby reducing the profit margin in trafficking low-cost labor, hence making it necessary to import higher quality and less number of foreign labor, as the talent-based visa program was meant to be. It is this conditional attachment that is reducing the quality of imported labor; an outright ban of H1B would further reduce the quality of imported labor mix: as smart engineers would be much less likely to trek through deserts to come illegally, unlike the destitute with nothing to lose or even the outlaw desperadoes.

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

Strategist says

We have a shortage of skilled workers

BS, we don't.

just_passing_through says

Lots of concern from H1B at the biotech I work at. Trying to apply for, "The lottery!", asap.

Big proportion of foreigners in biotechs.

I see my industry slipping away quickly to China for reasons mentioned above (from all sides) AND their lack of regs on stem-cell, human genetic mods etc.

joshuatrio says

Most of those H1B's who come in from overseas know very little about tech. They "dump" a few certifications, and wallah, they're a pro

My sister has worked for 30+ years in a major medical firm that does research and testing for diseases. She said exactly what the tech CEO's like Bill Gates have always said. There is a shortage of skilled labor in STEM. She just can't find enough Americans for the right jobs. She also mentioned the foreigners are a lot more dedicated and reliable. They are willing to do overtime when needed without complaints.
She even gave me an example once. A machine they use in the lab must be maintained at a certain temperature. Everyone wanted to go home quickly on that Friday and left. The only one who bothered to remain was a young foreigner who contacted my sister at a different location, and stayed there until problem was fixed. Now tell me, who deserves the bonuses and the promotions?

Guys, America has a problem that can jeopardize our future well being, and requires fixing. Denying the problem does not fix it. We either produce more STEM graduates or we import them if we are to remain Numero Uno.

Strategist says

We either produce more STEM graduates or we import them if we are to remain Numero Uno.

We already have enough STEM graduates. What we have are employers who are cutting costs by falsely claiming that there is a shortage.

FP says

Strategist says

how can it be good throwing out people who pay into our social security, and keeping in people who don't?

The latter do dirty, hard work that nobody wants for minimal pay - almost free work. And everybody knows that Americans love free stuff!

The former take good paying jobs from our children. Our children are entitled to these jobs, 'cause we pay taxes! And as you must know, in America everything is for the taxpayer. Everything that exists is a product of the taxpayer. The taxpayer must be respected. Taxpayer - how proud that sounds!

It's funny we always used "Taxpayer" as an insult for the disinteresting drupes who have to wear silly uniforms like a Suit and Tie, so that they can be proud laboring lackeys for The Ownership Class. LOL @ those Failed Losers

errc says

The former take good paying jobs from our children. Our children are entitled to these jobs, 'cause we pay taxes! And as you must know, in America everything is for the taxpayer. Everything that exists is a product of the taxpayer. The taxpayer must be respected. Taxpayer - how proud that sounds!

It's funny we always used "Taxpayer" as an insult for the disinteresting drupes who have to wear silly uniforms like a Suit and Tie, so that they can be proud laboring lackeys for The Ownership Class. LOL @ those Failed Losers

The above is a paraphrase of a somewhat famous quote from a Maxim Gor'ky (a Sovet writer) novel, with "taxpayer" substituted for "man."

zzyzzx says

We already have enough STEM graduates. What we have are employers who are cutting costs by falsely claiming that there is a shortage.

So true.

What about Disney and all the other major companies laying off almost their entire IT staff only to replace them with H1Bs?

I had several friends who were in tech and had to train their H1B replacements, since the company was cutting costs.

Sorry strategist, there are far too many examples of companies abusing the H1B rules, to argue we don't have enough STEM grads.

If this happens (the half million Indians), we'll see much needed traffic congestion relieve in the BA.

Strategist says

The only one who bothered to remain was a young foreigner who contacted my sister at a different location, and stayed there until problem was fixed. Now tell me, who deserves the bonuses and the promotions?

But could that due to the laws that favor American workers? Maybe they need a kick in the behind to start being more accountable and not sue for everything. We really need to restore the balance -if you don't like to be a responsible person-get your own business.

joshuatrio says

I had several friends who were in tech and had to train their H1B replacements, since the company was cutting costs.

I did that myself-way back-wow time flies!

I don't think we have any choice for the top jobs and my opinion mirror's strat even though it's not in my personal short term best interest - because I work and compete for jobs with H1B.

I think to stay competitive (in particular with our small population size) we need to do things that we've done in the past - scrape the globe for the best talent. Try to make this a welcoming place where the best of the best want to come to and live. I can't comment on tech companies (even though I'm a computer scientist who's also a molecular biologist) but there are a lot of really effen hard biotech problems that need to be solved, that are GOING to be solved. We need it to happen here. If American's want those jobs they need to step up and compete. Because that's the way it's going to be wherever that sort of opportunity exists on the planet.

Most of the H1B I know do work harder than most Americans, except for me of course. I hang out with regular Americans outside of work. I sat at the 'cool' table in high school. NYE I was at a party in DT SD and a former, "Bachelor", guy showed up. Andrew Baldwin. Was dancing like a total nerd. I mentioned that at work today and 6 people spun around in their chairs and said, (on average),"Nerd!? Hey! What do you mean by that!".

Don't even get me started about my lazy 20yr old nephew and friends kids... Maybe we're screwed even with H1B...

*disclaimer, I know there is wage abuse and I'm not for that - there should be a reasonable solution. I actually quit a job when asked to train an offshore team.

But, without Indians, tech companies will have to train Americans, then offer better wages and pension plans to keep them employed.

The horror!

Booger says

But, without Indians, tech companies will have to train Americans, then offer better wages and pension plans to keep them employed.

The horror!

Over 20 years I've worked with:

Indians
East Asians
South East Asians
Russians
Iranians
Brits
1 Colombian
Italians
French
Germans
Danish
Romanians
Bulgarians
Georgians

[edit: I left out South Africans and Oceanic]

... probably others I'm unaware of.

Like I said, I can't comment on the regular hi-tech situation. Just biotech.

We used to own that market too aside from the Brits. China is taking it.

Booger says

But, without Indians, tech companies will have to train Americans, then offer better wages and pension plans to keep them employed.

Just to amplify on this, and to address comments made earlier, most H1-Bs are not super smart PhDs from Mumbai.

They're kids with a 2-4 year degree (often of dubious legitimacy) and minimum experience, maybe a year or two in a call center. And unlike Americans, they don't get anything like the vetting.

Companies are pretend that they need these genius, highly skilled, highly trained individuals, when they're really using "I" and "II" entry level people.

No jobs for America Is and IIs today = no IIIs, IVs, and Vs down the road. Education can only do so much, at some point your need trigger time; experience doing the actual work.

Furthermore, experienced H1B holders often return to their home country, bringing their US acquired skills with them, and helping foreign firms compete with American ones. So we're subsidizing Tech Firms to hire Foreigners over Americans, to train Foreigners to help Foreign Businesses compete with Americans.

it's obvious that Trump hates Indians.

did not visit India during Asia tour.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Just to amplify on this, and to address comments made earlier, most H1-Bs are not super smart PhDs from Mumbai.

They're kids with a 2-4 year degree (often of dubious legitimacy)

This is probably true (I say probably because I don't know the facts, just observations and common sense).

The change in the law that is causing such outrage in the MSM will just not allow people to stay on H1B beyond 6 years while waiting for green cards. Well, if you did not manage to get a green card within 6 years, then you are not that valuable. For highly educated people with exceptional abilities, the path to green card is quite fast.

My green card application was approved in exactly one day. After that it took 4 months to do the biometrics and get the actual card. The longest part of the process (I think it was called labour market survey for some categories, for others it is just a wait list due to quotas) is waived for the top categories such as outstanding or exceptional scientist, or national interest waiver.

So all this wailing about how we wouldn't have Mr. Genius now, who once upon a time was on H1B, is nonsense.

I’m all for getting the best and brightest but people arguing that H1B has anything to do with that obviously don’t have any experience with the program.

H1B is designed for corporations to put bodies in chairs. There’s no special skills test, no requirement to show you can’t find an American, a low wage requirement, and best of all the Visa is tied to the employer so the employee can’t quit or get fired unless he wants to be deported. That’s why H1Bs will set in front of your machine monitoring it all night.

If you are an exceptional talent with skills Americans don’t have, there’s way better visas to get.

Trump should scrap H1B and any other non merit based immigration program. Again I’m all for getting the best and brightest over here, but arguing that H1B does that is a straw man, so let’s restrict the discussion to what specific things H1B provides that you think is necessary.

lostand confused says

Strategist says

The only one who bothered to remain was a young foreigner who contacted my sister at a different location, and stayed there until problem was fixed. Now tell me, who deserves the bonuses and the promotions?

But could that due to the laws that favor American workers? Maybe they need a kick in the behind to start being more accountable and not sue for everything. We really need to restore the balance -if you don't like to be a responsible person-get your own business.

I think it's due to the culture we have, and unemployment/welfare we provide.

lostand confused says

joshuatrio says

I had several friends who were in tech and had to train their H1B replacements, since the company was cutting costs.

I did that myself-way back-wow time flies!

In an integrated world, this is what, we face regardless of what laws we place. The future is where we can work anywhere, and still get our job done.
How are we gonna remain numero uno when we don't produce enough STEM workers?

Strategist says

lostand confused says

joshuatrio says

I had several friends who were in tech and had to train their H1B replacements, since the company was cutting costs.

I did that myself-way back-wow time flies!

In an integrated world, this is what, we face regardless of what laws we place. The future is where we can work anywhere, and still get our job done.
How are we gonna remain numero uno when we don't produce enough STEM workers?

By importing our landlords!

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

By importing our landlords!

By importing the best that would be part of us. We are all imports in America.

Strategist says

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

By importing our landlords!

By importing the best that would be part of us. We are all imports in America.

If H1B was about getting the best, why is the salary requirement so low? Why is there no requirement to show that no American has the ability to do the job? Why is there no special skill / education requirement? Why can't H1B visa holders change jobs? Why are the spouses of H1B visa holders able to work?

anon_4e80d says

If H1B was about getting the best, why is the salary requirement so low? Why is there no requirement to show that no American has the ability to do the job? Why is there no special skill / education requirement? Why can't H1B visa holders change jobs? Why are the spouses of H1B visa holders able to work?

Ding ding ding ding.... We have a winner.

Strategist says

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

By importing our landlords!

By importing the best that would be part of us. We are all imports in America.

Currently H1B categories doesn't include "landlord" as special skill. I'm all for adding it (while removing IT-related stuff, of course). It's time we have landlords more eager to please their tenants at 2am on Tuesday night while taking in half the rent.

Strategist says

anotheraccount says

Strategist says

s. How can we not have have a shortage of skilled STEM professionals?

Because it only takes a few great people to produce amazing results in technology. Millions of Indian IT workers decrease productivity instead of increase it by complicating what can be done simply.

Yes, it only takes a few great people to produce amazing results that benefit us all. Those few great people are one in a million. If we have only a few people to begin with, our odds of finding that one diamond in the rough is greatly diminished.
I still don't understand the logic of keeping out the wealth makers, and keeping in the wealth takers.

I think I disagree with you about that one in a million. I think in a right system and proper principles leadership everyone can be that person, given the opportunity. Because all those "gems" who came here, were nothing in their own country, and coming here America's system allowed them to be great. I believe the system that is based on freedom is the one that will do that.