patrick.net

lol

Coming to California very soon.

WookieMan says

In the next 3 or 7 years if Trump is elected again, he will not even remotely have as much impact on my finances as my state legislative branch does.

Unless, of course, interest rates rise.

Now we pay 2.3% on our debt for a payment of $266 billion a year. Fuck grandma and a safe investment on her money, let her play the slots, I mean stocks.

In 88 interest paid was at 8.8%. If inflation is on the rise hence interest rates on the rise, if we get back to 3 x 2.3% or 6.9% we will be paying nearly $800 billion to service our debt.

Shit could get out of control real quick. Lucky we all got a tax break. ??

Time to move Wookieman, my wife and I are feeling the same way about CA its only a mater of time before its just as bad here.

WookieMan says

This is another reason I hate the back and forth on Trump. In the next 3 or 7 years if Trump is elected again, he will not even remotely have as much impact on my finances as my state legislative branch does. Next stop on the IL tax train is double digit income taxes. That will literally cost me $10k+ if we go 10% plus on IL income taxes. This is a when not if conversation. Thank god if it gets bad enough I can easily leave.

You don't need to care about Trump, but you should think very hard about the consequences of electing Democrats at the state and local level and what it has done for Illinois.

20 years of dominance in the assembly and senate by Democrats.



If you do move, make sure you don't vote the same type of people into office.

IL, IL -loony tunes dem paradise state.

Goran_K says

Also is Cali facing similar shortfalls to funding its retirement benefits?

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/09/25/california-pension-reform-calpers/

Bottom line: cities, counties, school districts and ultimately taxpayers are footing a much bigger and likely more realistic bill. CalPERS estimates about a third of local and state budgets go to pay for public pensions. Experts at this recent pension workshop estimate it’s closer to 60 percent and growing. “Retirement spending has doubled in the last five years, and you ain’t seen nothing yet,” said Stanford public policy lecturer David Crane.

Can't stop a tidal wave my friend.

Hutch says

You can if you can cut. IL doesn't have that option.

lol

I'd love to see Democrats in California talk to one of the most active and vocal parts of their voting base about CalPers cuts to their pensions. WOULD LOVE to see it.

Win-win situation IMO.

Goran_K says

You don't need to care about Trump, but you should think very hard about the consequences of electing Democrats at the state and local level and what it has done for Illinois.

I'm fully aware. We just had an income tax increase after something like 2-3 years without a fucking budget. Dems veto'd the governor. I can't remember what percentage it was to what it is now, but close to a 30-40% tax increase. And now some committee or what not is throwing around borrowing $100B? What was the point of the tax increase?

I'm actually okay paying a little bit more honestly. My problem is that if the pension problem doesn't get better after this increase and there's another tax increase down the road, well then the game is over for me.

Bottom line, if in the next 2-3 years there's another tax increase over 10% (the increase, not overall rate), and they borrow this money, this state is done. This would be like the Netherlands failing as a top 20 country in the world if you don't count US states as their own economies: http://www.newsweek.com/economic-output-if-states-were-countries-california-would-be-france-467614

Unfortunately for the rest of you guys, you're likely going to have to bail me and my state out. Thanks in advance.

The amount of misinformation on this thread is mind boggling.

WookieMan says

I'm fully aware. We just had an income tax increase after something like 2-3 years without a fucking budget. Dems veto'd the governor. I can't remember what percentage it was to what it is now, but close to a 30-40% tax increase. And now some committee or what not is throwing around borrowing $100B? What was the point of the tax increase?

I'm actually okay paying a little bit more honestly. My problem is that if the pension problem doesn't get better after this increase and there's another tax increase down the road, well then the game is over for me.

Bottom line, if in the next 2-3 years there's another tax increase over 10% (the increase, not overall rate), and they borrow this money, this state is done. This would be like the Netherlands failing as a top 20 country in the world if you don't count US states as their own economies: http://www.newsweek...

How did it get to this point? I haven't spent lots of time in Illinois (maybe a week in Chicago total), but why did you guys give up financial solvency to the Democrats?

In California the straw that broke the camels back was Prop 187 and Latinos going full bore Democrat voters to preserve the ability of their illegal family members to cross the border, work, get benefits from the State.

WookieMan says

This is literally the equivalent of taking a cash advance on your credit card at 20% interest and then expecting returns of 30%. There's almost no scenario where this works out of IL citizens or the bond holders.

Thy are stupid enough to invest in Bitcoin.

WookieMan says

I'm fully aware. We just had an income tax increase after something like 2-3 years without a fucking budget. Dems veto'd the governor. I can't remember what percentage it was to what it is now, but close to a 30-40% tax increase. And now some committee or what not is throwing around borrowing $100B? What was the point of the tax increase?

Well that front runner for the dem GOvernor race is already running ads for a progressive tax-ya know what that means -on top of the highest property axes in the nation, on top of a declining population-LOL!!!!!!!

Oh he also is campaigning on the first state to have universal healthcare-pray tell where is he going to get the money and he supports illegals . Democrats-why, oh why?????

lostand confused says

Oh he also is campaigning on the first state to have universal healthcare

wtf?

I honestly wonder if Democrats are soviet era sleeper agents that have gone rogue yet maintain the mission directives to ruin the United States.

Goran_K says

How did it get to this point? I haven't spent lots of time in Illinois (maybe a week in Chicago total), but why did you guys give up financial solvency to the Democrats?

My honest take is that the state land mass is too large for completely different factions to be running governemnt. Chicago is urban and technically beats out LA as the 2nd largest urban center in the country if you give it the same square mileage as LA/Orange County (this does include Lake County, IN). The rest of the state, in 95% of areas is farmland. The other 5% of cities are all pretty tiny in the grand scheme of things.

These two types of lifestyles and living should never have the other side dictating how each other should live, be taxed, etc. A farmer is never going to have any knowledge on how a urban area is run and the same is true of the city dweller telling a farmer how to live. Yet that's what we have in IL. We have John Doe state rep in Effingham, IL that has to get on the same page and legislate with Jill Doe from the south side of Chicago. I think most of us can agree that's not the smartest arrangement.

And I know this isn't unique to IL necessarily, but really only NY and CA come close to having similar situations. And NY really doesn't have the agriculture that CA or IL have. TX has some bigger cities, but that's a different animal as well. FL is big as well, but that's a tourist driven state and really doesn't produce a whole lot outside of fruit, when it's not freezing due to global warming ;)

IL really should have been split in half as a northern section and southern section. The southern section operating more like a Iowa or Indiana. And then the northern section operates more like a NYC, CA, NJ high population area. This of course will never happen and didn't happen. And both sides will blame each other for the states problems which isn't solving anything either.

I honestly think if IL had split into two states a while back, things would be completely different. But, here we are as one. I'm not seeing a good ending here. Fortunately I can cut and run whenever I want for the most part.

lostand confused says

Oh he also is campaigning on the first state to have universal healthcare-pray tell where is he going to get the money and he supports illegals . Democrats-why, oh why?????

Ha ha ha. So nice of him. The well to do who pay taxes will flee, while the bums will come charging in. In 5 years it will become Venezuela.

lostand confused says

Oh he also is campaigning on the first state to have universal healthcare-pray tell where is he going to get the money and he supports illegals . Democrats-why, oh why?????

Hey, at least he got the school kids their breakfast. Because, you know, 2-3% of us don't feed our kids I guess.

JB is bag. This election is honestly going to be epic. It's going to set records spending wise and I just saw the owner of ULINE throwing $500k at a Rauner republican challenger.

Goran_K says

Experts at this recent pension workshop estimate it’s closer to 60 percent and growing

That sounds a lot like a bunch of companies just before they went bankrupt.

anon_8f378 says

The amount of misinformation on this thread is mind boggling.

Sneaky one. I missed this. Explain?

WookieMan says

IL really should have been split in half as a northern section and southern section. The southern section operating more like a Iowa or Indiana. And then the northern section operates more like a NYC, CA, NJ high population area. This of course will never happen and didn't happen. And both sides will blame each other for the states problems which isn't solving anything either.

I honestly think if IL had split into two states a while back, things would be completely different. But, here we are as one. I'm not seeing a good ending here. Fortunately I can cut and run whenever I want for the most part.

California has toyed too with the idea of splitting the state. The economics and policies between the coast and inland are like two different countries. Kern County in CA is basically Texas in California.

WookieMan says

Sneaky one. I missed this. Explain?

Mostly all the typical Dem bashing from the usual suspects. The problems in IL are big and both parties are to blame. And, if you want to complain about property taxes, then look at your local politicians, not at the State or Federal levels.

WookieMan says

These two types of lifestyles and living should never have the other side dictating how each other should live, be taxed, etc. A farmer is never going to have any knowledge on how a urban area is run and the same is true of the city dweller telling a farmer how to live. Yet that's what we have in IL. We have John Doe state rep in Effingham, IL that has to get on the same page and legislate with Jill Doe from the south side of Chicago. I think most of us can agree that's not the smartest arrangement.

Interesting thought, but I think it's really not that different than most states with the urban vs. rural dichotomy. Really, PA is probably similar to IL, with two big cities and the rest rural. Downstate IL is more like Kansas than Iowa though.

anon_8f378 says

Mostly all the typical Dem bashing from the usual suspects. The problems in IL are big and both parties are to blame. And, if you want to complain about property taxes, then look at your local politicians, not at the State or Federal levels.

Thanks for explaining.

I never gave the Republicans a pass in IL. While Blago gets all the publicity, his republican predecessor Ryan ended up in jail too. That said, much of the time the state senate & house had a dem super majority. While it's lame, the Republican governor doesn't get reelected if they fight what the majority of what the legislature approves. So electing a republican governor really doesn't matter in most cases in good 'ole IL. Rauner is going to prove this point when he loses this fall. A Nazi could be elected governor and it still wouldn't change anything.

This is kind of why I go back to the state being split. I don't have a horse in this race and never will. IL is run like shit and unfortunately for democrats, they've been the horse pulling the carriage the most. I don't believe either party does 100% bad all the time. Neither party does even 20% good though. Most are in it to get wealthy and there are little to no restrictions on getting there.

I also wasn't complaining about property taxes. I'm frugal and am a unicorn in IL and bought at the right time and appealed. I pay $2,800/yr.

My income tax was more my issue. It will be the reason I likely leave the state in the next 5-10 years. I can live in a smaller house and be happy to avoid the local property taxes. I can't make less money and be happy. I will only make more money and it's an inevitability that my state income taxes will double at a minimum.

Mark my words, IL income tax will hit 10% plus in the next decade. The ONLY thing that would stop it from going to 10% plus is IL being allowed to go through bankruptcy. That's it. Borrowing $100B fucking dollars will only make it worse.

WookieMan says

I never gave the Republicans a pass in IL

Nor was I including you in the typical suspects.

WookieMan says

My income tax was more my issue. It will be the reason I likely leave the state in the next 5-10 years. I can live in a smaller house and be happy to avoid the local property taxes. I can't make less money and be happy. I will only make more money and it's an inevitability that my state income taxes will double at a minimum.

Income tax in IL hasn't really been that high. But, you're right that it may be going up with all the obligations.

anon_8f378 says

Income tax in IL hasn't really been that high. But, you're right that it may be going up with all the obligations.

You are completely right on this. It's not that bad on an income tax basis. I'd honestly be okay paying up to about 7% on my gross in state income taxes. If things don't improve after this last hike though, I'll have a hard time supporting ANY government official that helps to approve another new increase.

And while it was only half the year, the increase passed in June/July last year is going to cost me $3-4k. Poof, money gone. Government is a necessary evil, but at some point it goes too far. IL legislature is on probation with this voter and I have zero allegiance to any of them. There are a lot like me that will pull the rug out from under IL government. I honestly think we might be too far gone. I'm not willing to throw in the towel, but it's in my hand and I'm ready to wind up for the throw.

anon_8f378 says

Nor was I including you in the typical suspects.

I don't think the usual suspects here at Patnet really understand IL. I read about CA, but I really don't have an understanding of who the players are there. I'd be surprised if anyone from CA even knows who Mike Madigan is even with all the hoopla here in IL about him. It's hard to project a national bias on a statewide or even more local issue. I'm awful with names, but Roy Moore's opponent would be a hardcore republican here in IL. Bruce Rauner would be a democrat in AL or MS. Some people will see IL as an apple even though it's an orange.

So I don't necessarily blame them. I just wish everyone, on either side would be more willing to hear different points of view without it turning into Libtard, TDS, Trumpcuck, etc. And if you (anyone, not specifically you) don't like the point of view, don't shit your fucking diaper. Everyone at each others throats hasn't been working for a while. It was this way before Trump even though he's fresh in our mind. Politics has been bad for a long time. Right on left and left on right has been going on for a while.

WookieMan says

I don't think the usual suspects here at Patnet really understand IL.

I'm not sure what there is to understand that you haven't presented and what most here (I assume) know.

- Democrat super majority continually increases individual tax burden.
- Now you're ready to throw in the towel because of lost income due to taxation (your words)
- You're fed up with this increasing taxation and looking to leave.

This is the exact same story in California. This is the national platform of the majority of Democrat politicians.

The problem is, people who end up bailing on blue states like Illinois or California tended to vote for the very same idiots who taxed them to death (not saying this is the case with you). Then they come to their new low tax states and end up voting in the same dumb ass lefty Democrats that taxed them to death in their previous state. This is what has happened in Texas, and how Houston has turned slightly blue from slightly red in the past 10 years. Hope you don't end up doing that where ever you move to.

Goran_K says

I'm not sure what there is to understand that you haven't presented and what most here (I assume) know.

- Democrat super majority continually increases individual tax burden.

We can start with misunderstanding where the high tax burden in IL comes from. The State Legislature does not set property taxes.

There aren't Dem super majorities in most IL county boards.

anon_8f378 says

We can start with misunderstanding where the high tax burden in IL comes from. The State Legislature does not set property taxes.

So the high tax burden is due to local government setting high property tax? That's what you're claiming?

Wookie is complaining about income tax. Who sets that?

I took a job that was in Lisle, IL back in 2015. I never relocated my family to Illinois nor did I establish residency there. I simply lived out of a hotel during the week and commuted home to Ohio on weekends. I started working in DFW at the start of the new year and I am so glad to be filling out my last Illinois 1040-R tax form.

This state is horrible and has little redeeming qualities. I will never support a Federal Bailout for this state that is too fucking stupid to govern themselves. How about this idea? If they go bankrupt and go into receivership to the Federal Government, they become a territory of the USA and lose ALL representation in Washington DC. No senators, no representatives and no ability to become a state for many years. If they want to become a state again, they would have to pay back all monies used to bail them out.

Hutch says

@Goran_k Just your opinion or does Cali have this same clause in its constitution? Also is Cali facing similar shortfalls to funding its retirement benefits?

Facts? Proof?

California started the "California Rule" which many Liberal Blue states like Illinois adopted to their constitution.

There is no way Illinois or California or Connecticut or New Jersey, New York.......can fix these issues without reforming pensions. You can only raise taxes so high.

There is hope since several California State courts have recently ruled that the California Rule and pensions should not be immutable and open for negotiation. The State Supreme Court will be tackling this case later this year.

anon_8f378 says

We can start with misunderstanding where the high tax burden in IL comes from. The State Legislature does not set property taxes.

We are talking public sector pensions here. Where do you think all of these costs came from? I don't see many public sector labor unions and government employee groups lobbying or supporting Republican candidates. It's a total corruption feedback loop where public sector unions use our tax dollars to elect Democrats who grow government and give government employees fat salaries and benefits.

thenuttyneutron says

This state is horrible and has little redeeming qualities. I will never support a Federal Bailout for this state that is too fucking stupid to govern themselves. How about this idea? If they go bankrupt and go into receivership to the Federal Government, they become a territory of the USA and lose ALL representation in Washington DC. No senators, no representatives and no ability to become a state for many years. If they want to become a state again, they would have to pay back all monies used to bail them out.

Sounds like a great plan to me.

Goran_K says

Wookie is complaining about income tax. Who sets that?

Is he?

WookieMan says

You are completely right on this. It's not that bad on an income tax basis.

As someone who has lived in IL, I can tell you that property taxes and sales taxes are high. Income taxes are low to average

WookieMan says

IL really should have been split in half as a northern section and southern section. The southern section operating more like a Iowa or Indiana.

How would this fix the problem? You would still have the majority of the pension debt and high cost of government (along with the dysfunction and crime) of Chicago in the Northern half of the state. Does Northern Illinois just need to elect more union toady Democrats to fix this problem?

Honestly, I don't get how people can suffer the high taxes and dysfunction of Illinois, New Jersey or New York. Especially living in Illinois when Indiana next door is pretty much identical once you get out into the suburbs and country. We have the same problems in California, but at least our weather is perfect and we have surf. I rationalize the high cost of California living as basically a "luxury tax".

Oh the above was me. But seriously when is enough enough? When do voters wake up and say I can't take it no more?? I am not paying 15k a year for a 300-500k house with no end in sight.
Why does a village manager get 300k a year-more than most Governors? What does said village manager do? Why does a teacher get a pension from my money?? When is it enough??? Tax and spend liberals always seem to have their supply of people who vote for them.

anon_8f378 says

e can start with misunderstanding where the high tax burden in IL comes from. The State Legislature does not set property taxes.

So tell me Joey-can a local govt anywhere in IL set whatever benefit they want for their employees. Can they set a right to work zone in their jurisdiction. Can they cut pension and dump their obligations??

anon_8f378 says

Is he?

Uh yeah.

This is another reason I hate the back and forth on Trump. In the next 3 or 7 years if Trump is elected again, he will not even remotely have as much impact on my finances as my state legislative branch does. Next stop on the IL tax train is double digit income taxes. That will literally cost me $10k+ if we go 10% plus on IL income taxes. This is a when not if conversation.

anon_8f378 says

Goran_K says

Wookie is complaining about income tax. Who sets that?

Is he?

WookieMan says

You are completely right on this. It's not that bad on an income tax basis.

As someone who has lived in IL, I can tell you that property taxes and sales taxes are high. Income taxes are low to average

I did say this of course. My issue is with the increase here last summer of income tax and I'm now reading articles about borrowing $100B. The overall rate when compared to other states nationally is not that bad. If you compare it to CA we're kicking ass. If you compare it to FL or TX, well, we suck. On a tax rate basis.

I admittedly lean right fiscally, well most the time. But I also understand private businesses aren't just going to make roads, bridges, etc. out of the goodness of their hearts. They'll pitch in with taxes, which I'm willing to do as long as my money is being used intelligently. I don't think that's the case here in IL, spending the tax dollars intelligently. Our roads and bridges for example suck.

Bottom line is, as a ratio or percentage, I don't think there's another state in the country that has a worse off pension problem. This all has to be paid technically unless bankruptcy becomes a viable option somehow. The bond holders that helped to keep paying the retirees will get the shaft, but they're supposedly uber wealthy so who cares, right? You can't not pay the retired teachers less? Not saying this is either or.

I don't have the solution. My mom is actually a retired teacher here in IL. She would be fine, but a lot wouldn't if their pension was adjusted. Yes voting has consequences. There is no magic pill for IL problems. It's just no one is bringing any ideas to the table that I've heard. Just a lot of fighting and finger pointing. Each day that goes by IL is literally that much closer to default. My link in my OP is talking about IL borrowing $100B. Fucking $100B. Think about that.

I'm ultimately resigned to the fate that this doesn't get resolved. There's no evidence it will. I think a lot of people kind of point and laugh and say it's like CA, NJ, NY, etc whatever. This is over the top rhetoric, but someone show me a way out for IL without doubling the tax rate, cutting pensions and cutting a bunch of other governemnt services? There's a reason lawmakers are throwing out borrowing $100B. And it's not cause I'm crazy.

lostand confused says

When do voters wake up and say I can't take it no more?? I am not paying 15k a year for a 300-500k house with no end in sight.

It can't end. I think you know that. You can't keep paying government workers while decreasing the tax revenues by lowering property taxes or income taxes. IL will be the first state to attempt some form of BK if you ask me. All I'd suggest is to be prepared as I recall you live in this utopia. Again, one hundred fucking BBBBBillion! This is the solution from our elected officials!!??!

WookieMan says

There is no magic pill for IL problems. It's just no one is bringing any ideas to the table that I've heard. Just a lot of fighting and finger pointing.

There is no painless way to fix this. If the pensions can't get in better shape in this stock market - when will they?

EVERYONE is going to have to take a bite of the crap sandwich. Illinois citizens are going to get raped in higher taxes, your services (infrastructure, education, welfare spending) will be cut, and bond holders are going to lose. But the pain can be alleviated somewhat if the government employees, Democrat politicians/judges and their unions agree to some pension reform.

What moron is going to buy these bonds?

Booger says

What moron is going to buy these bonds?

Unfortunately morons looking for double digit returns that likely won't get paid back. Probably CALPERS? Is that the correct acronym for what I think it is that I'm trying to make a bad joke about?

I just don't know if there are enough morons to come up with $100B. It's America though, there's Facebook and shit, so, there's that...