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CBOE's 6 year court case Sanctions hearing in 2 days!!!
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2018 Sep 10, 2:24pm 3,734 views 15 comments
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1
marcus
2018 Sep 10, 4:19pm
marcus
2018 Sep 10, 4:19pm
Good luck !
I'm not a legal mind. But if I was, I'm pretty sure you haven't given enough info for anyone to make even an educated guess.
I am curious though. What happened ? Did an employee steal the software and proceed to use it better than your firm, or with some bigger backing or faster connections to markets or something like that ?
They couldn't have stolen it in a way where you no longer had it, did they ? Or did they somehow sabotage you, removing your access from key historical data or something like that ? Is there a link to the story you can share, that is if it's way too much to go in to ?
I'm not a legal mind. But if I was, I'm pretty sure you haven't given enough info for anyone to make even an educated guess.
I am curious though. What happened ? Did an employee steal the software and proceed to use it better than your firm, or with some bigger backing or faster connections to markets or something like that ?
They couldn't have stolen it in a way where you no longer had it, did they ? Or did they somehow sabotage you, removing your access from key historical data or something like that ? Is there a link to the story you can share, that is if it's way too much to go in to ?
3
CBOEtrader
2018 Sep 10, 6:14pm
CBOEtrader
2018 Sep 10, 6:14pm
marcus says
True. The interesting thing is this case will now be an indictment of their lack of good faith as much as anything else. The judge must protect the integrity of the legal system, and frankly the judge is PISSED at their bad faith.
marcus says
I was trading a market-maker sub-account at the broker/dealer called Vtrader. Not sure what year you luckily left this psychopathic business, but after Dodd-Frank all sub accounts were beholden to their broker/dealer. Almost no way to maintain IP besides trust (and legal ramifications i suppose). It felt like leaving millions in cash in your unlocked car at night. In this situation, the broker/dealer forced us to use their server management company, who was in turn stealing all IP from every trading group they came into contact with and uploading it to their private servers. Then they had a tech team reverse engineer and piece together Frankenstein trades. After they squeezed what they could out of small trading groups, they would fabricate an issue and end the partnership. Afterwards they would continue the stolen trade themselves without the need to share profits with those pesky sub-account owners AND leave a negative remark in the trader's finra records so as to eliminate trading competition from often liquid markets for a few extra months.
I was a very risk averse trader, and a very aggressive businessman. My direct "risk manager" at the firm kept telling me to take position bets and trade bigger. All the while we continued to finance our quoting engine at $100k/month in costs (we were the only non HUGE firm to create our own quoting engine for $$$millions), while the BD promised 20 times as much capital if things kept going well. We had immediate plans to grow into the e-minis and then into the SPY/SPX/VXX, etc... I returned about 600% after costs market making the vix with almost total automation the year before, all like clockwork. Best month was 100% return and worst month was flat. After losing the position bet encouraged by my risk manager, i had my first down week in months and they informed me that our relationship was ended. (This was when I started looking for another explanation and talking to their employees and EX-employees.)
I was left with no revenue, no access to money (Dodd-Frank locks up trading capital), and 30 employees with no way to pay them. I actually plunked down my last $20 k into an IB account, and proceeded to make $200k with that seed capital over next 1 to 2 years while waiting for my capital to unlock from Vtrader. They ended up not even giving me back my capital considering we filed a $5 million suit against them.
When my lawyers asked me how much I felt this situation stole from me in total, i told them $50 million. $50 million was my expected profits in coming years if things worked out like I expected. Unfortunately the legal team suggested we put a more reasonable $5 million sticker value on the suit.
After 6 years of games, the judge has finally had enough. There has been almost zero actual details discussed in court though. The defense wasted 5 years just racking up bills, then once the judge finally said "no more games, its time to take a look at the servers" (to prove the theft as well as ill gotten gains), the defense literally deleted the data.
The judge will rule as harshly as is legally allowed given this type of blatant spoliation of evidence. My only question: what are the legal limits? Sticker price of the suit is $5 million, I am optimistically expecting $12 to 15 million, while also prepared for a $200 thousand slap on the wrist type judgement. Its all in the judge's hands now.
'm not a legal mind. But if I was, I'm pretty sure you haven't given enough info for anyone to make even an educated guess.
True. The interesting thing is this case will now be an indictment of their lack of good faith as much as anything else. The judge must protect the integrity of the legal system, and frankly the judge is PISSED at their bad faith.
marcus says
I am curious though. What happened ?
I was trading a market-maker sub-account at the broker/dealer called Vtrader. Not sure what year you luckily left this psychopathic business, but after Dodd-Frank all sub accounts were beholden to their broker/dealer. Almost no way to maintain IP besides trust (and legal ramifications i suppose). It felt like leaving millions in cash in your unlocked car at night. In this situation, the broker/dealer forced us to use their server management company, who was in turn stealing all IP from every trading group they came into contact with and uploading it to their private servers. Then they had a tech team reverse engineer and piece together Frankenstein trades. After they squeezed what they could out of small trading groups, they would fabricate an issue and end the partnership. Afterwards they would continue the stolen trade themselves without the need to share profits with those pesky sub-account owners AND leave a negative remark in the trader's finra records so as to eliminate trading competition from often liquid markets for a few extra months.
I was a very risk averse trader, and a very aggressive businessman. My direct "risk manager" at the firm kept telling me to take position bets and trade bigger. All the while we continued to finance our quoting engine at $100k/month in costs (we were the only non HUGE firm to create our own quoting engine for $$$millions), while the BD promised 20 times as much capital if things kept going well. We had immediate plans to grow into the e-minis and then into the SPY/SPX/VXX, etc... I returned about 600% after costs market making the vix with almost total automation the year before, all like clockwork. Best month was 100% return and worst month was flat. After losing the position bet encouraged by my risk manager, i had my first down week in months and they informed me that our relationship was ended. (This was when I started looking for another explanation and talking to their employees and EX-employees.)
I was left with no revenue, no access to money (Dodd-Frank locks up trading capital), and 30 employees with no way to pay them. I actually plunked down my last $20 k into an IB account, and proceeded to make $200k with that seed capital over next 1 to 2 years while waiting for my capital to unlock from Vtrader. They ended up not even giving me back my capital considering we filed a $5 million suit against them.
When my lawyers asked me how much I felt this situation stole from me in total, i told them $50 million. $50 million was my expected profits in coming years if things worked out like I expected. Unfortunately the legal team suggested we put a more reasonable $5 million sticker value on the suit.
After 6 years of games, the judge has finally had enough. There has been almost zero actual details discussed in court though. The defense wasted 5 years just racking up bills, then once the judge finally said "no more games, its time to take a look at the servers" (to prove the theft as well as ill gotten gains), the defense literally deleted the data.
The judge will rule as harshly as is legally allowed given this type of blatant spoliation of evidence. My only question: what are the legal limits? Sticker price of the suit is $5 million, I am optimistically expecting $12 to 15 million, while also prepared for a $200 thousand slap on the wrist type judgement. Its all in the judge's hands now.
5
Goran_K
2018 Sep 11, 9:36am
Goran_K
2018 Sep 11, 9:36am
You're going to get a good judgement, I have zero doubts. They pulled a Hillary Clinton and deleted their servers while in trial? Yeah, that's going to go well for them.
Collecting will be your biggest problem, might have to take a lien against their physical building or something.
Collecting will be your biggest problem, might have to take a lien against their physical building or something.
7
CBOEtrader
2018 Sep 11, 10:33am
CBOEtrader
2018 Sep 11, 10:33am
Aphroman says
No idea. I've never done this before. Some of the defendants are worth in excess of tens of millions, so fingers crossed.
I have a question, whatever the judgement may be, what are the odds that they actually pay it out? How hard is it to get your money if/when you win a case like this?
No idea. I've never done this before. Some of the defendants are worth in excess of tens of millions, so fingers crossed.
8
CBOEtrader
2018 Sep 11, 10:33am
CBOEtrader
2018 Sep 11, 10:33am
lostand confused says
My lawyer would probably say no.
I like to live dangerously.
Should you be putting this out in while case is in trial?
My lawyer would probably say no.
I like to live dangerously.
9
CBOEtrader
2018 Sep 11, 10:35am
CBOEtrader
2018 Sep 11, 10:35am
Goran_K says
I was wrong about the date. Hearing was this morning. Judge simply collected and went through all relevant info. Followup court date Oct 19th for a judgement.
According to my lawyers, assuming judge enters summary judgement in our favor THEN we build the justification for the monetary settlement.
This case could easily string along for 2 to 3 more years.
You're going to get a good judgement, I have zero doubts. They pulled a Hillary Clinton and deleted their servers while in trial? Yeah, that's going to go well for them.
Collecting will be your biggest problem, might have to take a lien against their physical building or something.
I was wrong about the date. Hearing was this morning. Judge simply collected and went through all relevant info. Followup court date Oct 19th for a judgement.
According to my lawyers, assuming judge enters summary judgement in our favor THEN we build the justification for the monetary settlement.
This case could easily string along for 2 to 3 more years.
10
CBOEtrader
2018 Sep 11, 10:38am
CBOEtrader
2018 Sep 11, 10:38am
Goran_K says
One of the defendants still owns a large investment company. They may have $200 million of operating capital and most likely many times more than that of notional value in their portfolio, including but not limited to a $100 million office building in NY.
Collecting will be your biggest problem, might have to take a lien against their physical building or something.
One of the defendants still owns a large investment company. They may have $200 million of operating capital and most likely many times more than that of notional value in their portfolio, including but not limited to a $100 million office building in NY.
11
Goran_K
2018 Sep 11, 10:41am
Goran_K
2018 Sep 11, 10:41am
Douchebags. They should cut you a $3,000,000 check and move on. I hope the judge evicerates them.
12
CBOEtrader
2018 Sep 11, 10:48am
CBOEtrader
2018 Sep 11, 10:48am
Goran_K says
Legal battles is part of their business model. They never expected a small group like mine to stand up to them and win. My lawyers have probably racked up $2 million in legal fees. Only possible because I caught them red handed and was able to pitch my case to 100 lawyer pro-bono firm. No small group could ever finance this themselves.
Funny watching them turn on each other though.
One of the defendants literally accused the others of handing bags of cash to brokers for inside info, etc... I mean, legit mobster type criminal accusations are coming out.
Douchebags. They should cut you a $3,000,000 check and move on. I hope the judge evicerates them.
Legal battles is part of their business model. They never expected a small group like mine to stand up to them and win. My lawyers have probably racked up $2 million in legal fees. Only possible because I caught them red handed and was able to pitch my case to 100 lawyer pro-bono firm. No small group could ever finance this themselves.
Funny watching them turn on each other though.
One of the defendants literally accused the others of handing bags of cash to brokers for inside info, etc... I mean, legit mobster type criminal accusations are coming out.
13
CBOEtrader
2018 Sep 11, 10:52am
CBOEtrader
2018 Sep 11, 10:52am
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-joel-brodsky-disciplinary-commission-complaint-20180905-story.html
Their lawyer may be the scummiest in Chicago.
Their lawyer may be the scummiest in Chicago.
14
HeadSet
2018 Sep 11, 11:00am
HeadSet
2018 Sep 11, 11:00am
This case could easily string along for 2 to 3 more years.
And after that, can it be delayed even more with an appeal?
And after that, can it be delayed even more with an appeal?
15
CBOEtrader
2018 Sep 11, 11:06am
CBOEtrader
2018 Sep 11, 11:06am
HeadSet says
Appeals and delays are Brodsky's specialty. According to the article he may lose his license though, so who knows.
My lawyers tell me they've never seen behavior like this in a case before. Everything about this is novel.
Our hope is that the judge takes equally aggressive steps to maintain order in the court process.
This case could easily string along for 2 to 3 more years.
And after that, can it be delayed even more with an appeal?
Appeals and delays are Brodsky's specialty. According to the article he may lose his license though, so who knows.
My lawyers tell me they've never seen behavior like this in a case before. Everything about this is novel.
Our hope is that the judge takes equally aggressive steps to maintain order in the court process.
Long story short, it was all stolen from me under very bizarre circumstances. I put together the facts of my case and convinced corboy and demetrio, a huge Chicago pro-bono firm to take the case. They filed suit for $5 million mid 2012.
The defendants literally hired Drew Peterson's lawyer, also known as the scumbaggiest lawyer in Chicago. https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/joel-brodsky-fined-ordered-to-undergo-anger-management-478268853.html
6 years later, nothing substantial has ever been discussed in court. The defenses entire case has been delays, extensions, and redic attempts to get the case thrown out over and over. Late last year after finally pinning the defense down, the judge finally ruled they had to open their servers for examonation.
Their response: "oh sorry, we deleted most of that stuff, but you can totally look through what we have left."
Well, given 6 years of delays and now blatant spoilation, the judge is furious and we have a summary judgement sanctions hearing in 2 days.
Any legal minds want to guess the range of possible outcomes? I see no way the judge does not rule against the defense...however would the judge give a minimal award ($200k) and suggest hands are tied legally? Would the judge award the sticker value of the suit of $5 million? Or will the judge drop the hammer and preserve the integrity of the court process by awarding treble damages of $15 million?