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Fuck Electric Vehicles, But More Importantly, Fuck Their Sanctimonious Owners.
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2019 May 3, 8:59am 7,136 views 185 comments
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21
Hand_Of_Glory
2019 May 3, 3:36pm
Hand_Of_Glory
2019 May 3, 3:36pm
Tim Aurora says
Like I said above, if you like it, good on you.
As an aside, anyone contemplating buying an EV should be aware of the full value. The cost is always come down as the industry scales.
https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-true-cost-of-powering-an-electric-car.html
http://patrick.net/post/1323735/2019-04-07-evs-are-cheaper-to-operate-and-much-cleaner-than-ice
I am on my third EV, it is so fun to drive I am not going back to that 20th Century ICE
Like I said above, if you like it, good on you.
As an aside, anyone contemplating buying an EV should be aware of the full value. The cost is always come down as the industry scales.
https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-true-cost-of-powering-an-electric-car.html
22
Heraclitusstudent
2019 May 3, 4:03pm
Heraclitusstudent
2019 May 3, 4:03pm
The thing to consider is that solar and batteries prices are not static: they are collapsing.
And they are collapsing because there are people who buy these technologies now.
The people who buy early super expensive Teslas paid for investments that will allow one day electric vehicles to be by far cheaper than gas cars (they are simpler).
And - given that solar power prices are also collapsing - electric vehicles are going to be clearly the greenest.
So the rant above amount to conservative nay saying in the face of progress - progress from which everyone benefits.
The willing, fates guide them.
The others, they drag.
And they are collapsing because there are people who buy these technologies now.
The people who buy early super expensive Teslas paid for investments that will allow one day electric vehicles to be by far cheaper than gas cars (they are simpler).
And - given that solar power prices are also collapsing - electric vehicles are going to be clearly the greenest.
So the rant above amount to conservative nay saying in the face of progress - progress from which everyone benefits.
The willing, fates guide them.
The others, they drag.
23
MisdemeanorRebel
2019 May 3, 4:10pm
MisdemeanorRebel
2019 May 3, 4:10pm
How do you store all that Solar Power after 5PM on a January in Washington or Massachusetts?
Molten Salt.
Molten Salt.
24
Hand_Of_Glory
2019 May 3, 5:31pm
Hand_Of_Glory
2019 May 3, 5:31pm
Heraclitusstudent says
Not a conservative breh. Thanks for your opinion.
The thing to consider is that solar and batteries prices are not static: they are collapsing.
And they are collapsing because there are people who buy these technologies now.
The people who buy early super expensive Teslas paid for investments that will allow one day electric vehicles to be by far cheaper than gas cars (they are simpler).
And - given that solar power prices are also collapsing - electric vehicles are going to be clearly the greenest.
So the rant above amount to conservative nay saying in the face of progress - progress from which everyone benefits.
The willing, fates guide them.
The others, they drag.
Not a conservative breh. Thanks for your opinion.
25
RWSGFY
2019 May 3, 5:46pm
RWSGFY
2019 May 3, 5:46pm
socal2 says
Sorry, but there is no way shape or form Bolt/Volt/Leaf or whatever other tall FWD electric econobox is more fun to drive than Tesla3. The latter handles beautifully, on par with the best RWD sports sedans out there, the former are all firmly on the scale between horrible and simply meh. Of course, there is nothing wrong in choosing an electric econobox if one doesn't care about handling and the whole "fun to drive" thing is limited by "0-40 acceleration from a stop light" for them.
You should go test drive one and be sure to put it in "L" mode which give you one pedal driving. The acceleration and torque are awesome, but it is the regenerative braking which makes the Bolt such a blast to drive. I never use the friction brakes, I just take my foot off the accelerator and maybe hit the regen paddle on the steering wheel if I need to slow down more.
A friend of mine who is pretty well off just got done test driving the Tesla X and 3 and decided to go with the Bolt.
Sorry, but there is no way shape or form Bolt/Volt/Leaf or whatever other tall FWD electric econobox is more fun to drive than Tesla3. The latter handles beautifully, on par with the best RWD sports sedans out there, the former are all firmly on the scale between horrible and simply meh. Of course, there is nothing wrong in choosing an electric econobox if one doesn't care about handling and the whole "fun to drive" thing is limited by "0-40 acceleration from a stop light" for them.
26
clambo
2019 May 3, 6:23pm
The height of the car matters less if the center of gravity is low with the weight of the batteries and motors down low.
The Bolt has the equivalent of 200 HP which is a lot for a small car. My Volvo hauls ass with 250 HP but it's a heavier car.
Everyone who drives it says it's fun, and for $30,000 less money than Tesla you can spend the extra dough on having other kinds of fun.
They must be selling a lot of them in some places, I see them all over the area I'm in.
The Bolt has the equivalent of 200 HP which is a lot for a small car. My Volvo hauls ass with 250 HP but it's a heavier car.
Everyone who drives it says it's fun, and for $30,000 less money than Tesla you can spend the extra dough on having other kinds of fun.
They must be selling a lot of them in some places, I see them all over the area I'm in.
28
clambo
2019 May 3, 6:31pm
The Bolt is about $30,000
I guess the Model 3 is close in price until you add on all the stuff which really makes it expensive. I bet most 3s actually end up being $45,000.
I can't just go buy a Model 3 rather I must pay $ then wait for months and I guess people do that too but I sure won't.
I guess the Model 3 is close in price until you add on all the stuff which really makes it expensive. I bet most 3s actually end up being $45,000.
I can't just go buy a Model 3 rather I must pay $ then wait for months and I guess people do that too but I sure won't.
29
RWSGFY
2019 May 3, 6:43pm
RWSGFY
2019 May 3, 6:43pm
clambo says
You don't have to add anything. RWD and great handling comes standard.
I guess the Model 3 is close in price until you add on all the stuff which really makes it expensive.
You don't have to add anything. RWD and great handling comes standard.
30
komputodo
2019 May 3, 7:55pm
komputodo
2019 May 3, 7:55pm
socal2 says
Umm, I don't think you have to be able to afford a Tesla to test drive one...I'm sure you didn't mean it that way.
Suggest the EV haters test drive a Chevy Bolt, Hyundai Kona, Kia Niro or a Tesla if they can afford one.
Umm, I don't think you have to be able to afford a Tesla to test drive one...I'm sure you didn't mean it that way.
31
BayArea
2019 May 3, 8:47pm
BayArea
2019 May 3, 8:47pm
Comment I heard from a coworker this week upon laying eyes on a Chevy Volt...
“I’d be embarrassed to be seen in that” LOL
How is it possible after all these years that GM still makes the most hideous looking cars on the road today? It blows my mind that this is still true post federal bailout.
“I’d be embarrassed to be seen in that” LOL
How is it possible after all these years that GM still makes the most hideous looking cars on the road today? It blows my mind that this is still true post federal bailout.
32
Ceffer
2019 May 3, 8:56pm
Ceffer
2019 May 3, 8:56pm
BayArea says
They use a senile old Russian designer who used to design Lada's and Yugo's.
Actually, I have heard a lot of good things about the Volt from end users.
How is it possible after all these years that GM still makes the most hideous looking cars
They use a senile old Russian designer who used to design Lada's and Yugo's.
Actually, I have heard a lot of good things about the Volt from end users.
34
FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut
2019 May 3, 9:12pm
FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut
2019 May 3, 9:12pm
Civic/Corolla can't be beat. Cheaper to start, cheap on gas. EV's are expensive and unreliable toys. No one knows how long they last, Teslas I hear are junk that breaks a lot. Prius seems to last longer, but again (battery life is unknown).
35
mell
2019 May 3, 9:38pm
Agree if EVs work for you that's great but there's no credible data that they have a better pollution footprint than modern ICEs. Best is a competition of both models as it brings out the best on both sides.
36
Automan Empire
2019 May 3, 10:24pm
Automan Empire
2019 May 3, 10:24pm
The car in the OP appears to have run over an open manhole cover or larger road hazard.
37
DOGEWontAmountToShit
2024 Apr 6, 2:15pm
DOGEWontAmountToShit
2024 Apr 6, 2:15pm
https://x.com/sashayanshin/status/1776552388704227421
Why I will never switch from my EV to one of these new gas cars.
1. Range anxiety - I am used to being on 100% every morning. With a gas car, I might not have enough gas to get to work and have to waste time going to recharge it.
2. Big maintenance problem - After 100k-200k miles you have to swap or rebuild the engine. That’s $10-20k on an old car. This is crazy!
3. Risk of fire - Gas cars have ~100x the likelihood of catching fire compared to EVs. You literally have a full tank of explosive liquid right underneath your back seats. No thank you!
4. Underdeveloped charging infrastructure - Every home has a power outlet. Every AirBnb has one too. No matter how remote. With a gas car, you have to go find special charging stations instead of charging while you sleep. Sometimes, the nearest one could be 50 miles away!
5. Environmental impact - Did you know it takes about 10x as much mining and pumping to get the oil needed to fuel a gas car over its lifetime than the materials needed to build an electric battery? Insane!
6. Range issues - Did you know that if you turn on aircon, charge your devices in the car and blast the infotainment system, your gas car range can go down by 20% or more?!
7. Cost - The average gas car costs 20% more than a Tesla. It’s just too expensive for mass adoption.
You have to be a real nutcase fan boy to switch to a gas car! [socal2, Eman]
38
WookieMan
2024 Apr 6, 2:33pm
WookieMan
2024 Apr 6, 2:33pm
Lol... The thickest sarcasm/troll I've seen in a while. Spot on though. Molasses is what comes to mind.
EV owners enjoy it. It's not cheaper. Not green. I just zipped around town in the cart. Fun. I also sometimes need to tow up to 9k lbs more than 400 meters. Can it tow it, sure, but again will you literally get more than a 1/4 miles out of it? Not happening with a EV. Get a golf cart and drive that to work. In CA you're likely not getting above 30-40mph on a good traffic day. Golf carts can go that fast easy. 1/3 the cost for a nice one. 1/10th for a fixer upper.
EV owners enjoy it. It's not cheaper. Not green. I just zipped around town in the cart. Fun. I also sometimes need to tow up to 9k lbs more than 400 meters. Can it tow it, sure, but again will you literally get more than a 1/4 miles out of it? Not happening with a EV. Get a golf cart and drive that to work. In CA you're likely not getting above 30-40mph on a good traffic day. Golf carts can go that fast easy. 1/3 the cost for a nice one. 1/10th for a fixer upper.
40
WookieMan
2024 Apr 7, 5:59am
WookieMan
2024 Apr 7, 5:59am
rocketjoe79 says
Yeah but the cost of the car is not factored into that chart. Likely a financed vehicle so that $908 would be eaten by the loan to a comparable sized ICE car in 3 months and then you're paying more monthly. Factor in EV's don't pay MFT yet, the cost will go up through registration or your electric bill in the coming years. Just because they're zippy, doesn't mean they're light cars. A Tesla is causing more damage to roads than a an ICE car paying the taxes for you.
I also usually keep a car for 10 years. Besides gas and oil changes I have all the same maintenance as an EV. Maybe an alternator or starter, but those are relatively cheap repairs Never had to replace an engine. Always get 200k miles out of my cars. With lithium the batteries degrade over time as well. I don't think I'd see 200k miles out of a Tesla without a battery pack swap at the tune of a used car, like $20k to get it back on the road. So that would literally eat all the savings or get I have to get rid of a useless car for pennies.
I get the hype for EV's. The math doesn't add up though. The one factor no one considers is time. I'm not going to sit there and wait for a charge when I can get 400 miles in 3 minutes ICE vehicles. I'd lose $100 in the time waiting to get a full charge at least in productive time. Or the time finding a charger in rural areas with range fear. There're plentiful in CA, but not in my area of IL. Maybe at the big truck stops, but they're not at your local small town gas station.
EV's are for sure more expensive. It's a fun car to drive. That's not a value to me that is worth the higher cost. And the costs are 100% for sure higher for a comparable ICE car that just does 0-60 in 6 seconds instead of 3. Excessive acceleration will get you pulled over in most states. Call me a geezer driver, but it's provably dangerous.
This is what I like.
Yeah but the cost of the car is not factored into that chart. Likely a financed vehicle so that $908 would be eaten by the loan to a comparable sized ICE car in 3 months and then you're paying more monthly. Factor in EV's don't pay MFT yet, the cost will go up through registration or your electric bill in the coming years. Just because they're zippy, doesn't mean they're light cars. A Tesla is causing more damage to roads than a an ICE car paying the taxes for you.
I also usually keep a car for 10 years. Besides gas and oil changes I have all the same maintenance as an EV. Maybe an alternator or starter, but those are relatively cheap repairs Never had to replace an engine. Always get 200k miles out of my cars. With lithium the batteries degrade over time as well. I don't think I'd see 200k miles out of a Tesla without a battery pack swap at the tune of a used car, like $20k to get it back on the road. So that would literally eat all the savings or get I have to get rid of a useless car for pennies.
I get the hype for EV's. The math doesn't add up though. The one factor no one considers is time. I'm not going to sit there and wait for a charge when I can get 400 miles in 3 minutes ICE vehicles. I'd lose $100 in the time waiting to get a full charge at least in productive time. Or the time finding a charger in rural areas with range fear. There're plentiful in CA, but not in my area of IL. Maybe at the big truck stops, but they're not at your local small town gas station.
EV's are for sure more expensive. It's a fun car to drive. That's not a value to me that is worth the higher cost. And the costs are 100% for sure higher for a comparable ICE car that just does 0-60 in 6 seconds instead of 3. Excessive acceleration will get you pulled over in most states. Call me a geezer driver, but it's provably dangerous.
41
clambo
2024 Apr 7, 6:58am
The only guy I know who owns a Tesla was bragging about how he got a tax credit for it. He's the epitome of a smug owner.
He also complains that FPL doesn't pay him for the energy he produces from his vast solar panel installation on his house roof.
He's not satisfied that he pays no bill each month; he wants them to pay him some money.
He's smug and likes to brag about his "real estate holdings"; he has a house with his wife and they have another one which is rented out.
When I see him at a barbecue he brings a cooler and pounds Budweisers like no tomorrow; I don't know where it goes, he must have a hollow leg.
Off the subject: if you guys are someday seeking an income investment which is not four walls and a roof, check out SPYI.
It's got a high yield.
He also complains that FPL doesn't pay him for the energy he produces from his vast solar panel installation on his house roof.
He's not satisfied that he pays no bill each month; he wants them to pay him some money.
He's smug and likes to brag about his "real estate holdings"; he has a house with his wife and they have another one which is rented out.
When I see him at a barbecue he brings a cooler and pounds Budweisers like no tomorrow; I don't know where it goes, he must have a hollow leg.
Off the subject: if you guys are someday seeking an income investment which is not four walls and a roof, check out SPYI.
It's got a high yield.
42
HeadSet
2024 Apr 7, 7:40am
HeadSet
2024 Apr 7, 7:40am
clambo says
Off the subject: if you guys are someday seeking an income investment which is not four walls and a roof, check out SPYI.
It's got a high yield.
43
HeadSet
2024 Apr 7, 7:48am
HeadSet
2024 Apr 7, 7:48am
clambo says
I have talked to several "net zero" rooftop solar homeowners around here and unlike your Tesla bud, none have complained about not being paid by Dominion Power. Net Zero is fair, since although they supply free power to Dominion during the day, they get free power from Dominion at night.
He also complains that FPL doesn't pay him for the energy he produces from his vast solar panel installation on his house roof.
He's not satisfied that he pays no bill each month; he wants them to pay him some money.
I have talked to several "net zero" rooftop solar homeowners around here and unlike your Tesla bud, none have complained about not being paid by Dominion Power. Net Zero is fair, since although they supply free power to Dominion during the day, they get free power from Dominion at night.
44
DOGEWontAmountToShit
2024 Apr 7, 7:50am
DOGEWontAmountToShit
2024 Apr 7, 7:50am
HeadSet says
Dominion doesn't get shit. The excess power generated gets burned off as heat at the neighborhood substation because the grid was built to push power in only one direction.
I have talked to several "net zero" rooftop solar homeowners around here and unlike your Tesla bud, none have complained about not being paid by Dominion Power. Net Zero is fair, since although they supply free power to Dominion during the day, they get free power from Dominion at night.
Dominion doesn't get shit. The excess power generated gets burned off as heat at the neighborhood substation because the grid was built to push power in only one direction.
45
HeadSet
2024 Apr 7, 8:43am
HeadSet
2024 Apr 7, 8:43am
UkraineIsTotallyFucked says
Um, no. Remember, the grid is AC, not "one way." The grid can use several inputs along the way, including company solar fields and home solar panels. A home source just needs to match 240v, 60Hz, and the correct phase to input the grid, which is the whole purpose of a grid-tie inverter. Notice also that a grid connected PV system must have transfer switches to disconnect during a power failure, to protect the lineman from shock from electricity flowing from a solar home into the grid to other houses. Also, systems would not need anti-islanding circuits if power from a one PV system did not feed other homes. True, having lots of home PV with its intermittent nature and varying power quality will stress power company components like voltage regulators and relays, but that is an issue for the RichWicks types to fix while the power company routinely makes use of home PV input.
Dominion doesn't get shit. The excess power generated gets burned off as heat at the neighborhood substation because the grid was built to push power in only one direction.
Um, no. Remember, the grid is AC, not "one way." The grid can use several inputs along the way, including company solar fields and home solar panels. A home source just needs to match 240v, 60Hz, and the correct phase to input the grid, which is the whole purpose of a grid-tie inverter. Notice also that a grid connected PV system must have transfer switches to disconnect during a power failure, to protect the lineman from shock from electricity flowing from a solar home into the grid to other houses. Also, systems would not need anti-islanding circuits if power from a one PV system did not feed other homes. True, having lots of home PV with its intermittent nature and varying power quality will stress power company components like voltage regulators and relays, but that is an issue for the RichWicks types to fix while the power company routinely makes use of home PV input.
47
HeadSet
2024 Apr 7, 9:54am
HeadSet
2024 Apr 7, 9:54am
UkraineIsTotallyFucked says
Nice snark. I assume that you are implying the step down of a substation makes it "one way" even though you seemed to imply no house could feed PV into the grid as all houses feed directly to the local substation and thus burn off as heat. Around here, a substation feeds hundreds of houses. I will admit that my AC comment was a bit inane, but so is the idea that home PV feeding the grid is useless because the power system is "one way."
HeadSet says
Um, no. Remember, the grid is AC, not "one way."
Nice snark. I assume that you are implying the step down of a substation makes it "one way" even though you seemed to imply no house could feed PV into the grid as all houses feed directly to the local substation and thus burn off as heat. Around here, a substation feeds hundreds of houses. I will admit that my AC comment was a bit inane, but so is the idea that home PV feeding the grid is useless because the power system is "one way."
48
DOGEWontAmountToShit
2024 Apr 7, 10:42am
DOGEWontAmountToShit
2024 Apr 7, 10:42am
HeadSet says
Well. After reading that, I will agree that we were both correct and incorrect.
I used substation wrong. Distribution transformer or what is between that and the local substation is probably more accurate.
It is one way. Because the equipment involved was deliberately designed as such in order to get better performance on the direction it was initially designed to do. Or to extend its service lifetime. Or both.
EV charging at night isn't in the design use model either. These distribution transformers were designed to last 40 years ONLY IF their use at night was minimized for several hours so they could cool down. But now with EVs pulling some serious juice down 6-8 hours each night, these things will need to be replaced every 4-6 years. They already cost 10x than they did a couple of years ago...and the waiting list is 2 years and growing.
Oh, and all rate payers will be on the hook for these. It should only be the EV fucks like @Eman and @socal2 who pay for this damage. They caused it.
Still. It is true that A/C flows both ways. But what A/C distribution equipment actually does are two different things.
Nice snark. I assume that you are implying the step down of a substation makes it "one way" even though you seemed to imply no house could feed PV into the grid as all houses feed directly to the local substation and thus burn off as heat. Around here, a substation feeds hundreds of houses. I will admit that my AC comment was a bit inane, but so is the idea that home PV feeding the grid is useless because the power system is "one way."
Well. After reading that, I will agree that we were both correct and incorrect.
I used substation wrong. Distribution transformer or what is between that and the local substation is probably more accurate.
It is one way. Because the equipment involved was deliberately designed as such in order to get better performance on the direction it was initially designed to do. Or to extend its service lifetime. Or both.
EV charging at night isn't in the design use model either. These distribution transformers were designed to last 40 years ONLY IF their use at night was minimized for several hours so they could cool down. But now with EVs pulling some serious juice down 6-8 hours each night, these things will need to be replaced every 4-6 years. They already cost 10x than they did a couple of years ago...and the waiting list is 2 years and growing.
Oh, and all rate payers will be on the hook for these. It should only be the EV fucks like @Eman and @socal2 who pay for this damage. They caused it.
Still. It is true that A/C flows both ways. But what A/C distribution equipment actually does are two different things.
49
yawaraf
2024 Apr 7, 10:52am
Your premise is interesting. I did not know that the power grid had this limitation. I would be curious to know what components restrict the flow of power.
Conductors, transformers and switches are not "one way". Power and current can flow through these elements in either direction.
Conductors, transformers and switches are not "one way". Power and current can flow through these elements in either direction.
50
WookieMan
2024 Apr 7, 11:18am
WookieMan
2024 Apr 7, 11:18am
yawaraf says
It's wear and tear. Don't need to know a thing about it really. Night time used to be the least used time of usage. You now have equipment with 24/7 demand. Warm months for air conditioning AND now charging cars at night. Usually after 10pm no air con is needed, people go to sleep and don't need electric. It's the least demand time of the day.
Now certain regions are getting high demand ALL day and night because of EV's. The grid wasn't built for that. And solar and wind aren't gonna cover for the night time needs. CA specifically probably has 5-10x's as much electric usage at night now. On top of the normal daytime usage.
TL:DR - Our electric grids cannot sustain EV's for probably another 10 years without massive issues and adding more power by a shit load.
Your premise is interesting. I did not know that the power grid had this limitation. I would be curious to know what components restrict the flow of power.
Conductors, transformers and switches are not "one way". Power and current can flow through these elements in either direction.
It's wear and tear. Don't need to know a thing about it really. Night time used to be the least used time of usage. You now have equipment with 24/7 demand. Warm months for air conditioning AND now charging cars at night. Usually after 10pm no air con is needed, people go to sleep and don't need electric. It's the least demand time of the day.
Now certain regions are getting high demand ALL day and night because of EV's. The grid wasn't built for that. And solar and wind aren't gonna cover for the night time needs. CA specifically probably has 5-10x's as much electric usage at night now. On top of the normal daytime usage.
TL:DR - Our electric grids cannot sustain EV's for probably another 10 years without massive issues and adding more power by a shit load.
51
DOGEWontAmountToShit
2024 Apr 7, 11:30am
DOGEWontAmountToShit
2024 Apr 7, 11:30am
yawaraf says
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/63042.pdf
Your premise is interesting. I did not know that the power grid had this limitation. I would be curious to know what components restrict the flow of power.
Conductors, transformers and switches are not "one way". Power and current can flow through these elements in either direction.
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/63042.pdf
52
richwicks
2024 Apr 7, 2:39pm
richwicks
2024 Apr 7, 2:39pm
UkraineIsTotallyFucked says
Yeah, it's a bad design.
I think power systems should move to a cooperative type system.
Really, if you're producing too much power from a solar system, you can just disconnect. All that happens is the panels heat up. Alternatively you can just dump in the form of heat. You could have a large tank of water that just heats up and stores hot water during a surplus.
yawaraf says
Your premise is interesting. I did not know that the power grid had this limitation. I would be curious to know what components restrict the flow of power.
Conductors, transformers and switches are not "one way". Power and current can flow through these elements in either direction.
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/63042.pdf
Yeah, it's a bad design.
I think power systems should move to a cooperative type system.
Really, if you're producing too much power from a solar system, you can just disconnect. All that happens is the panels heat up. Alternatively you can just dump in the form of heat. You could have a large tank of water that just heats up and stores hot water during a surplus.
53
DOGEWontAmountToShit
2024 Apr 7, 5:51pm
DOGEWontAmountToShit
2024 Apr 7, 5:51pm
monryrichwicks says
Are our roads a bad design because heavy EVs are wearing them down more than expected?
Not having a time machine to see how shit would be used in the future in ways that can't be predicted otherwise is not rational.
richwicks says
Agreed. Micro smart grids too. That costs money and resources.
Yeah, it's a bad design.
Are our roads a bad design because heavy EVs are wearing them down more than expected?
Not having a time machine to see how shit would be used in the future in ways that can't be predicted otherwise is not rational.
richwicks says
I think power systems should move to a cooperative type system.
Agreed. Micro smart grids too. That costs money and resources.
55
SunnyvaleCA
2024 Apr 7, 6:25pm
As for grid distribution of home solar power, that is changing in a hurry around here with new rules from 2022. Now a homeowner gets only 25¢ on the dollar for home generation credit. The result is that new installations after the cutoff rules change in 2022 are adding a few kilowatt-hours of battery storage so that the home rarely (if ever) passes power back to the grid. I suppose even more options would present themselves if the homeowner additionally owned an electric car.
On the other hand, I can't help but think that every solar home having its own set of batteries is an economical idea. For that matter, I don't think every home having its own solar panels is such a good idea. How about if no homes had panels but the local supermarket put all those panels in one giant installation on the flat roof of the supermarket and over top of the in-great-need-of-shade parking lot. All that capacity in a single convenient place and managed all at once instead of each homeowner dealing with the ins-and-outs of solar.
On the other hand, I can't help but think that every solar home having its own set of batteries is an economical idea. For that matter, I don't think every home having its own solar panels is such a good idea. How about if no homes had panels but the local supermarket put all those panels in one giant installation on the flat roof of the supermarket and over top of the in-great-need-of-shade parking lot. All that capacity in a single convenient place and managed all at once instead of each homeowner dealing with the ins-and-outs of solar.
56
richwicks
2024 Apr 7, 6:28pm
richwicks
2024 Apr 7, 6:28pm
UkraineIsTotallyFucked says
No, the power system is a bad design. We still have the same basic power system we did in 1950. There's all these problems with residential customers producing power, which is stupid - it shouldn't be a problem at all.
I'm not a power engineer, but I know this can be fixed, and CERTAINLY can be fixed today.
If you have a solar array, and the power goes out, your power goes out - doesn't matter if the sun is shining or not. The reason this happens is because otherwise the lines are electrified. This is easily remedied, isolate the home from the grid, and excess power is simply not consumed by the inverter, and is dissipated in the panels.
This doesn't damage the panels, with the inverter entirely off, ALL the power is dissipated in the panels.
Maybe it's cost that prohibits this? Maybe the cost of the inverter would skyrocket? I don't know.
If we distributed power, we are no longer dependent on central points of control, I think that's why it's not done honestly.
Are our roads a bad design because heavy EVs are wearing them down more than expected?
No, the power system is a bad design. We still have the same basic power system we did in 1950. There's all these problems with residential customers producing power, which is stupid - it shouldn't be a problem at all.
I'm not a power engineer, but I know this can be fixed, and CERTAINLY can be fixed today.
If you have a solar array, and the power goes out, your power goes out - doesn't matter if the sun is shining or not. The reason this happens is because otherwise the lines are electrified. This is easily remedied, isolate the home from the grid, and excess power is simply not consumed by the inverter, and is dissipated in the panels.
This doesn't damage the panels, with the inverter entirely off, ALL the power is dissipated in the panels.
Maybe it's cost that prohibits this? Maybe the cost of the inverter would skyrocket? I don't know.
If we distributed power, we are no longer dependent on central points of control, I think that's why it's not done honestly.
57
HeadSet
2024 Apr 7, 7:05pm
HeadSet
2024 Apr 7, 7:05pm
richwicks says
Around here, that is a non-issue remedied by using a transfer switch. This old time device disconnects you from the grid when it senses a power line failure, just like when using a natural gas generator for backup power. Your house is still powered by your solar even after the transfer switch disconnects you from the grid.
If you have a solar array, and the power goes out, your power goes out - doesn't matter if the sun is shining or not. The reason this happens is because otherwise the lines are electrified. This is easily remedied, isolate the home from the grid, and excess power is simply not consumed by the inverter, and is dissipated in the panels.
Around here, that is a non-issue remedied by using a transfer switch. This old time device disconnects you from the grid when it senses a power line failure, just like when using a natural gas generator for backup power. Your house is still powered by your solar even after the transfer switch disconnects you from the grid.
58
ForcedTQ
2024 Apr 7, 9:08pm
HeadSet says
In order for it to disconnect you from the grid you need an Automatic Transfer Switch. A manual transfer switch requires one to monitor the grid and operate it when the power goes out. Also, most inverters that people have on their houses don’t have “islanding” capabilities, the ability to generate the base sine wave of 60hz. So in those instances they will need another inverter that can (possibly hooked up to batteries) or a generator to make the sine wave or “utility power” in this case.
richwicks says
If you have a solar array, and the power goes out, your power goes out - doesn't matter if the sun is shining or not. The reason this happens is because otherwise the lines are electrified. This is easily remedied, isolate the home from the grid, and excess power is simply not consumed by the inverter, and is dissipated in the panels.
Around here, that is a non-issue remedied by using a transfer switch. This old time device disconnects you from the grid when it senses a power line failure, just like when using a natural gas generator for backup power. Your house is still powered by your solar even after the transfer switch disconnects you from the grid.
In order for it to disconnect you from the grid you need an Automatic Transfer Switch. A manual transfer switch requires one to monitor the grid and operate it when the power goes out. Also, most inverters that people have on their houses don’t have “islanding” capabilities, the ability to generate the base sine wave of 60hz. So in those instances they will need another inverter that can (possibly hooked up to batteries) or a generator to make the sine wave or “utility power” in this case.
59
HeadSet
2024 Apr 8, 7:59am
HeadSet
2024 Apr 8, 7:59am
ForcedTQ says
That is what "disconnects you from the grid when it senses a power line failure" means. I have examined several solar installs and houses with backup natural gas generators, and I have never seen a transfer switch that was not automatic
.
ForcedTQ says
So? You do not need inverter "islanding" if you have a transfer switch. Also, "islanding" is not "the ability to generate the base sine wave of 60hz." Any grid connected inverter must match frequency, phase, and voltage to commercial power. Again, I have seen several "net zero" solar installs, and every one of them had an inverter that put out clean commercial grade power. Even if you are totally off grid with solar and only need house level electricity, you need an inverter that can put out 60Hz, 120v (for home), 3 phase if you are running electronics like computers or modern appliances. Notice that even portable generators from Harbor Freight and Honda have an "inverter style" just to protect whatever sensitive electronics you plug in at the camp site or tailgate party. But if one is totally of grid, a better idea IMO is to stick with DC and use DC appliances that are made for motor homes.
In order for it to disconnect you from the grid you need an Automatic Transfer Switch.
That is what "disconnects you from the grid when it senses a power line failure" means. I have examined several solar installs and houses with backup natural gas generators, and I have never seen a transfer switch that was not automatic
.
ForcedTQ says
Also, most inverters that people have on their houses don’t have “islanding” capabilities
So? You do not need inverter "islanding" if you have a transfer switch. Also, "islanding" is not "the ability to generate the base sine wave of 60hz." Any grid connected inverter must match frequency, phase, and voltage to commercial power. Again, I have seen several "net zero" solar installs, and every one of them had an inverter that put out clean commercial grade power. Even if you are totally off grid with solar and only need house level electricity, you need an inverter that can put out 60Hz, 120v (for home), 3 phase if you are running electronics like computers or modern appliances. Notice that even portable generators from Harbor Freight and Honda have an "inverter style" just to protect whatever sensitive electronics you plug in at the camp site or tailgate party. But if one is totally of grid, a better idea IMO is to stick with DC and use DC appliances that are made for motor homes.
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Electricity for much of the US and world is powered through coal, its just a switch to another equal pollutant. The batteries and materials used in EVs are full of heavy metals, not to mention that when the batteries in an EV combust they fill the air with pollutants, burning heavy metals that fire departments cant extinguish. Lastly, theres not enough data on current EVs to determine their shelf life, given the materials and amount of electronics, i imagine the shelf life of an EV will be significantly shorter than that of an ICE vehicle.
Given all of that, you will still be subject to the bitching and moaning of bugmen and babies who have never changed their oil in their life. The sheer panic that these people attempt to spread and their ever changing timeline of ecological destruction is obnoxious. These arent folks who attempt to clean up India or China(our leading polluters) but they want to concentrate on stripping you of your ability to choose.
The government is only too happy to comply too. The more that bloodsucking government can entangle themselves in transportation, the more control they have over you and your movement. The government gives companies like Tesla "Credits" that they can sell to ICE manufacturers who dont develop EVs, or dont develop them to the point that the government wants. This allows failing EV companies, like Tesla, to stay afloat even though they cant run a business efficiently. Honestly this type of behavior is more akin to a villain from an Ayn Rand novel, both with the governments overreach and with the behavior of many EV owners in general.