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1
Tenpoundbass
2020 Jan 6, 1:43pm
Tenpoundbass
2020 Jan 6, 1:43pm
Yes yes he was. We desperately needed Ralph Nader in 2000.
We would probably have a viable Electric car and solar industry today.
We would probably have a viable Electric car and solar industry today.
2
mell
2020 Jan 6, 1:48pm
I don't think anybody doubts that anymore. One of the worst decisions was GW 2. Saddam was a secular counterforce to all the nutcases. Sometimes even a nutcase dictator can be a sane option among the far worse.
3
HeadSet
2020 Jan 6, 3:15pm
HeadSet
2020 Jan 6, 3:15pm
mell says
Just like it took an Ataturk to transform the Ottoman Empire into a secular Turkey, it would take another harsh ruler to turn Iraq into a secular state. Saddam was on the way to that secular state, and actually had Christians in high office and was empowering women. Lets not make the same error and take out Assad.
I don't think anybody doubts that anymore. One of the worst decisions was GW 2. Saddam was a secular counterforce to all the nutcases. Sometimes even a nutcase dictator can be a sane option among the far worse.
Just like it took an Ataturk to transform the Ottoman Empire into a secular Turkey, it would take another harsh ruler to turn Iraq into a secular state. Saddam was on the way to that secular state, and actually had Christians in high office and was empowering women. Lets not make the same error and take out Assad.
4
mell
2020 Jan 6, 3:34pm
HeadSet says
Completely agree - it's naive at best and idiotic at worst to expect leaders in such a ravaged region to endorse democracies and free elections and civil liberties akin to the west. They would get murdered instantly in such an unstable environment. For the time being rulers of countries in the middle-east region need to be semi-dictators at least and ensure stability for many years until they can reform their country towards more democracy and civil liberties. Saddam was indeed quite far ahead with women being able to work in almost any job they wanted, and with relative peace between the different religions, similar to what Assad achieved over the years.
mell saysI don't think anybody doubts that anymore. One of the worst decisions was GW 2. Saddam was a secular counterforce to all the nutcases. Sometimes even a nutcase dictator can be a sane option among the far worse.
Just like it took an Ataturk to transform the Ottoman Empire into a secular Turkey, it would take another harsh ruler to turn Iraq into a secular state. Saddam was on the way to that secular state, and actually had Christians in high office and was empowering women. Lets not make the same error and take out Assad.
Completely agree - it's naive at best and idiotic at worst to expect leaders in such a ravaged region to endorse democracies and free elections and civil liberties akin to the west. They would get murdered instantly in such an unstable environment. For the time being rulers of countries in the middle-east region need to be semi-dictators at least and ensure stability for many years until they can reform their country towards more democracy and civil liberties. Saddam was indeed quite far ahead with women being able to work in almost any job they wanted, and with relative peace between the different religions, similar to what Assad achieved over the years.
5
Patrick
2020 Jan 6, 5:33pm
Patrick
2020 Jan 6, 5:33pm
GW Bush should be in jail for starting a pointless war under false pretenses.
Cheney and Rumsfeld too.
9/11 was funded by the Saudis and carried out by Saudis. Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with it.
Cheney and Rumsfeld too.
9/11 was funded by the Saudis and carried out by Saudis. Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with it.
6
mell
2020 Jan 6, 5:49pm
APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says
Meh. Better than everyone else on the field. It's an imperative to be pro trump in light of the nutcases challenging him. It has nothing to do with worship.
Right - but TRUMP! is a GENIUS! and the ONLY! HOPE! OF AMERICA! and OF! CIVILIZATION!
WE MUST WORSHIP HIM OR PERISH!
Meh. Better than everyone else on the field. It's an imperative to be pro trump in light of the nutcases challenging him. It has nothing to do with worship.
7
Heraclitusstudent
2020 Jan 6, 5:51pm
Heraclitusstudent
2020 Jan 6, 5:51pm
Trump is neither animated by idealism nor by pragmatism.
Rather he is impulsive and rash, flies by the seat of his pants.
He didn't like the guy, and so he fired him, literally.
Rather he is impulsive and rash, flies by the seat of his pants.
He didn't like the guy, and so he fired him, literally.
8
mell
2020 Jan 6, 5:56pm
Heraclitusstudent says
Business wise he is very pragmatic otherwise we wouldn't be experiencing the current boom.
Trump is neither animated by idealism nor by pragmatism.
Rather he is impulsive and rash, flies by the seat of his pants.
He didn't like the guy, and so he fired him, literally.
Business wise he is very pragmatic otherwise we wouldn't be experiencing the current boom.
10
Heraclitusstudent
2020 Jan 6, 6:10pm
Heraclitusstudent
2020 Jan 6, 6:10pm
If you're Kim Jun Ooy what lesson do you draw from Trump's action?
If you're the Iranian leader?
Same lesson: get yourself nuke missiles that launch automatically unless you stop them.
If you're the Iranian leader?
Same lesson: get yourself nuke missiles that launch automatically unless you stop them.
11
mell
2020 Jan 6, 6:50pm
Heraclitusstudent says
What? So status quo - nothing has changed. good. Ruthless dictators always strive for maximum power part of which is to make themselves irreplaceable. The only way to defeat them is either to take them out, occupy the country after going to war or foster/promote a revolution from within which is usually the best option and has worked in many cases. Unfortunately some countries such as NK have been in such a tight grip for so long that this may be many years away.
If you're Kim Jun Ooy what lesson do you draw from Trump's action?
If you're the Iranian leader?
Same lesson: get yourself nuke missiles that launch automatically unless you stop them.
What? So status quo - nothing has changed. good. Ruthless dictators always strive for maximum power part of which is to make themselves irreplaceable. The only way to defeat them is either to take them out, occupy the country after going to war or foster/promote a revolution from within which is usually the best option and has worked in many cases. Unfortunately some countries such as NK have been in such a tight grip for so long that this may be many years away.
12
theoakman
2020 Jan 6, 7:05pm
The military industrial complex wanted this one really bad and they in turn, got all of congress to agree to it. Colin Powell should be ashamed of himself...I remember, he was the salesman on that one.
13
Rin
2020 Jan 6, 7:20pm
Rin
2020 Jan 6, 7:20pm
Patrick says
GW Bush should be jailed because he'd outsourced his govt to Cheney and Rumsfeld, just like LBJ did with McNamara and Westmoreland in the case of Vietnam. That's not being a President but a complicit delegater in Pentagon shenanigans.
This is in stark contrast with Trump where in effect, he's both funded the Pentagon monetarily but also, kept 'em on a lease from starting another protracted land war in a similar vein.
And no, sending a few 1000 to support an embassy (or even the areas around the Persian Gulf on the opposing side of Iran) is still nothing like the Gulf of Tonkin, where Johnson green lighted McNamara and company to increase the US troops in 'Nam from 24K to 536K.
http://www.americanwarlibrary.com/vietnam/vwatl.htm
GW Bush should be in jail for starting a pointless war under false pretenses.
Cheney and Rumsfeld too.
GW Bush should be jailed because he'd outsourced his govt to Cheney and Rumsfeld, just like LBJ did with McNamara and Westmoreland in the case of Vietnam. That's not being a President but a complicit delegater in Pentagon shenanigans.
This is in stark contrast with Trump where in effect, he's both funded the Pentagon monetarily but also, kept 'em on a lease from starting another protracted land war in a similar vein.
And no, sending a few 1000 to support an embassy (or even the areas around the Persian Gulf on the opposing side of Iran) is still nothing like the Gulf of Tonkin, where Johnson green lighted McNamara and company to increase the US troops in 'Nam from 24K to 536K.
http://www.americanwarlibrary.com/vietnam/vwatl.htm
14
MisdemeanorRebel
2020 Jan 7, 9:01am
MisdemeanorRebel
2020 Jan 7, 9:01am
Heraclitusstudent says
No way, he's been way to successful.
Rather, he's a Sun Tzu master of deception.
"Y'all watch the shiny while I do this. Here's where I'm weak - yeah, attack me on these grounds - heh, heh, heh"
He's absolutely fantastic at getting his enemies to break themselves.
Trump is neither animated by idealism nor by pragmatism.
Rather he is impulsive and rash, flies by the seat of his pants.
He didn't like the guy, and so he fired him, literally.
No way, he's been way to successful.
Rather, he's a Sun Tzu master of deception.
"Y'all watch the shiny while I do this. Here's where I'm weak - yeah, attack me on these grounds - heh, heh, heh"
He's absolutely fantastic at getting his enemies to break themselves.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/iraqi-parliament-calls-for-troop-withdrawal-what-next-for-the-united-states/
After years of war, many US casualties, many more civilians casualties, and hundreds of billions of dollars, what has the US achieved?
Total chaos. ISIS. A war in Syria. Mass immigration in Europe.
Iraq is now Shiite Islamic republic allied with Iran.
No one is on the side of the US. Not Iraq, not Shiites, not Sunnies, not Kurds (who were recently thrown under the bus), not Turkey, not Syria, not anyone.
Bush attacked that country with no plan, vague idealistic ideas of "spreading democracy", and absolutely no idea what Shiite/Sunny division meant.
We see the consequences to this day.