patrick.net

G36 says

in which other Cryptos do you invest and why? I agree the backtest to lower levels is very bullish. I am thinking of either buying more Bitcoin or other cryptos.

There is also the super lotto.

Ok, now I am getting a bit annoying.

Thanks OnVacation, first off I appreciate that you are sharing some insight which sounds a lot more realistic now.

I agree with a lot of few things you are saying (Blockchain tech is fast changing/evolving, electricity of Bitcoin and most of all "Best investment is leading a good balanced life"). It also sounds like you are in a pretty good financial situation and don't really need to spend time on investing to make your lifestyle work. That's good for you!

The one thing I don't fully get is, you say if something has no intrinsic value than it has no value and investors are greater fools. I get that tech stocks have intrinsic value but how does your "greater-fool-theory" apply to the fact hat the market price is way above the intrinsic value for tech stocks?

For instance, AMZN, this website is calculating the intrinsic value of AMZN
https://www.gurufocus.com/term/iv_dcf_share/AMZN/Intrinsic-Value-Projected-FCF/Amazoncom#:~:text=As%20of%20today%20(2020%2D11,FCF%20of%20today%20is%206.6.

Since the price per stock is multiple times greater, do you see AMZN stock holders as part of the greater fool theory?

G36 says

I get that tech stocks have intrinsic value but how does your "greater-fool-theory" apply to the fact hat the market price is way above the intrinsic value for tech stocks?

The fiat money systems. It is some kind of law of nature that those that have get more and those that have not, lose that they even seem to have. When money from nothing gets created it has to go somewhere. Thus the stock market boom while many people are living paycheck to paycheck. The rich get richer.

The fiat money system has forced us all to be gamblers. Savings accounts pay less interest than inflation and that is before banks start charging us to hold our money. There is no way the current system can last more than a couple hundred more years. Your best investment is still in experience, good food, entertainment, and helping the less fortunate.

I did a lot of research on crypto a couple of years ago when it was reaching for $20k. Any of the fools that bought at that price have sold and moved on or are HODLing in the hopes of fortunes. My research revealed how well setup the scam was; "coins in your wallet", "digital gold", "the currency of the future", "an untraceable way to transfer money", "a permanent record of all transactions", "a financial system apart from the government", "they're not making any more, once the last bitcoin is mined, that's it" and my favorite, "buy now or be priced out forever". Hype.

Good luck with your speculation.

onvacation, I agree with a lot here. I used to not want a credit card. Why should I get in debt and risk spending more than I have and risk paying enormous interest on it?
I had to get several credit cards in order to built a great credit score. I know there are other ways but this is actually an easy way for some. Not for all. Most probably max out their cards and get screwed. People like me actually spend time on finding cards that offer sign up bonuses for spending a minimum amount within a few months. After a year I cancel the card or switch to a card that has no annual fee. A bit of work maintaining my spreadsheet but I play the game to get more points for travel and other stuff.
And that's my point, play the game.

I would add one thing to your sentence:
"Your best investment is still in experience, good food, entertainment, and helping the less fortunate" + building passive income.

You still haven't really answered the question if tech stocks investors are also greater fools since the intrinsic value of the stock is 5-6 times lower than the market price.

Regarding "fools" buying at an all time high in the last Bitcoin bull cycle.....What do you say about people who bought in the previous bull cycle at an all time high of 1k and held until now?

I struggle with saying you are a greater fool now for buying but later when you sell at a higher price you are all of the sudden not a greater fool anymore.

Also, the buy now or be priced out forever phrase came from the 2005/2006 housing bubble....That phrase will be repeating by some people during any bubble.

G36 says

I struggle with saying you are a greater fool now for buying but later when you sell at a higher price you are all of the sudden not a greater fool anymore.

Bitcoin profits are dependent on someone paying more than you did for the coin. The same could be said about a gold coin, but at least with the gold coin you have a shiny piece of metal that can be used to make things. With real estate you have a place you can live. With stocks, for good or bad, you own a piece of a business's profits and losses. With Crypto you own... what?

My biggest problem with Bitcoin and other such devices is that it depends on fools to make money. When you pass your bitcoin ownership on to the bigger or smaller fool (dependent on your profits or losses) you also pass on the fool moniker.

I don't have a problem with people making fools of themselves. I do have a problem with fools trying to make fools of others even unconsciously. And I think I have made it clear why I think bitcoin is a foolish speculation requiring ever greater fools to profit, and not an investment.

G36 says

Also, the buy now or be priced out forever phrase came from the 2005/2006 housing bubble....That phrase will be repeating by some people during any bubble.

I'd call it more of a mania like tulips or beanie babies rather than a bubble like we had with the real estate bubble.

"With Crypto you own... what?"

A lot of traits actually. Not shininess though.

Gold has been a currency since time immemorial backed by GOLD!. The fiat dollar has been a currency since 1973 when it was no longer backed by gold. Bitcoin is a pseudo-currency backed by nothing and valued in fiat currency.

If you offered me equal values of all three I would definitely take the cash. I'd go on a nice trip with my wife and eat some good food.

We were thinking of a road trip to San Diego for X-mas because it's not real convenient to fly to New England this year.

personal

Onvacation says

We were thinking of a road trip to San Diego for X-mas because it's not real convenient to fly to New England this year.

Gonna miss Maine lobster rolls this year. But San Diego has fish tacos and sailboat rentals!

Smart Money and Governments and Secret Organizations hate the Dollar so much, that when bonds are issued by the Treasury at bupkiss interest, or they have an opportunity to snatch up suitcases full of cash, everybody runs to snatch it up. Some people like to have a little gold as a hedge against uncertainty.

Meanwhile, as soon as most people hear Buttcoin, they're like "Here comes a scam"

onvacation, i enjoy the debate too, but it would be helpful if you could clarify a few things and answer the questions.

For instance,
Since the price per tech stock is multiple times greater than its intrinsic value, do you see AMZN stock holders as part of the greater fool theory?

And, you said if someone sells Bitcoin at a higher price he/she is no longer a fool. You also said, people who bought the last all time high (at 20k) are fools. What about the people that bought the all time high at 1k in the previous bull run and are still holding? Are they also fools?

I wouldn't describe it as FOMO (me putting money in Bitcoin). I think "No" about the breastfeeding question. But I don't really remember. Since you asked, did your mom stop too soon?

NoCoupForYou says

Smart Money and Governments and Secret Organizations hate the Dollar so much, that when bonds are issued by the Treasury at bupkiss interest, or they have an opportunity to snatch up suitcases full of cash, everybody runs to snatch it up. Some people like to have a little gold as a hedge against uncertainty.

Meanwhile, as soon as most people hear Buttcoin, they're like "Here comes a scam"

It used to be like this (that most people who hear Bitcoin thought it was short lived and a scam). I think that is changing though. You see Bitcoin being discussed in the media and very few call it a scam anymore. You also have reputable trading websites offer to transact crypto (Robinhood) and reputable companies invest in it one way or the other (Square/Paypal).

People tell me Amazon used to be a book store and back then most people had physical CD's or rented/bought VHS/CD movies. Books, CDs, movies, its all digital nowadays. Why shouldn't you be able to digitalize money or gold?
In case you like shiny things you can always buy physical gold in addition. Or you buy a nice shiny car.

G36 says

Since you asked, did your mom stop too soon?

Yeah. She said I was a biter.

Onvacation says

G36 says

Since you asked, did your mom stop too soon?

Yeah. She said I was a biter.

interesting story. Why not answer the other questions as well?

G36 says

And, you said if someone sells Bitcoin at a higher price he/she is no longer a fool. You also said, people who bought the last all time high (at 20k) are fools. What about the people that bought the all time high at 1k in the previous bull run and are still holding? Are they also fools?

Foolish to HODL, smart to get out.

It's a ponzi scheme. Some make a bunch of money most lose.

G36 says

interesting story. Why not answer the other questions as well?

Your turn, what is the intrinsic value of Bitcoin. I don't think anyone has summarized. Example:
Real estate is intrinsically valuable because you can do stuff on land.
Stocks are intrinsically valuable because you share ownership of a company.
Gold is intrinsically valuable because it is shiny and has many uses.
Bitcoin is intrinsically valuable because... Why?

I agree to disagree and i dont think you have much more to add than Bitcoin=ponzi=no intrinsic value.

I dont see how its foolish to buy the ATH and HODL Bitcoin. If you would have done this during the last bull run at a 1K ATH you would be sitting on a massive profit right now. I cant call these people fools. I wish I would have done that. Easy to say now of course.

A low or non existing Intrinsic value doesnt mean the price on an asset or a crypto currency cant or shouldnt go up over time.
That's why you dont answer the question about tech stocks and their intrinsic value.....Tech stocks trade multiple times over their intrinsic value and continue to go up (most likely).

Nobody says you should invest in anything here, but your reasons and labels dont apply in my mind. its all good though. No hard feelings, but I do think this isnt advancing the debate. We agree on a lot of topics things but not Bitcoin. Fine by me.

"Gold is intrinsically valuable because its shiny and has many uses." Great. I invested in gold before but it didnt do much. I didnt hold it physically and the shiny thing is not really important to me. The uses (traits) are definitely a good point.

G36 says

That's why you dont answer the question about tech stocks and their intrinsic value.....Tech stocks trade multiple times over their intrinsic value and continue to go up (most likely).

Can't you see the difference? Tech stocks, no matter how overvalued still have intrinsic value, until they don't.

Bitcoin has no intrinsic value and never will. It cost a lot of electricity just to maintain and will require more energy up to it's final mining phase projected in 2040. At that point, with all the bitcoins "mined" the "miners" will be working for transaction fees.

If all the coins are held by HODLers who's gonna do transactions? If nobody does transactions how is the blockchain going to be maintained? Or at the point when all of the coins are mined will the blockchain be static so we know (don't know) who all the HODLers are?

It's a scam.

G36 says

G36 says

Your tables contradict each other. Is bitcoin easier to counterfeit than gold and dollars or not?

Relax :) its all good.
we dont have to agree. Lets just leave it at that. You are not going to convince me because I disagree with a few of your points. And I dont intent to convince you on anything.

"Can't you see the difference? Tech stocks, no matter how overvalued still have intrinsic value, until they don't."

You say the tech stock is overvalued because its trading way above its intrinsic value. And I say, I dont agree with this. I agree however with what you said earlier, the current monetary system (low interest environment) encourages this. I dont have an issue with investing in something that has a low or non-existing intrinsic value.
I dont pay with my 100 dollar bill and tell people, hey, the intrinsic value of this piece of paper is only 14 cents!

I am fine with you calling us Bitcoin investors all kinds of things and calling the whole thing a scam, ponzi whatever. I just leave it as is.

Dollar has no "divisibility"? Seriously? Ever heard of cents? =)) And how the fuck cash dollars have no anonymity? Ever heard about kidnappers demanding ransom to be paid in small previosly circulated dollar bills? Ever wondered why?

That picture is a fucking joke.

G36 says

I am fine with you calling us Bitcoin investors all kinds of things and calling the whole thing a scam, ponzi whatever. I just leave it as is.

So you got nothing with regard to the intrinsic value of bitcoin.

Just don't be the last greatest fool.

Eric Holder says


Dollar has no "divisibility"? Seriously? Ever heard of cents? =)) And how the fuck cash dollars have no anonymity? Ever heard about kidnappers demanding ransom to be paid in small previosly circulated dollar bills? Ever wondered why?

That picture is a fucking joke.

holy smokes, alright :) lets use this one below?

I am so happy that gold or dollars are not smart. That would be scary.

G36 says

Eric Holder says


Dollar has no "divisibility"? Seriously? Ever heard of cents? =)) And how the fuck cash dollars have no anonymity? Ever heard about kidnappers demanding ransom to be paid in small previosly circulated dollar bills? Ever wondered why?

That picture is a fucking joke.

holy smokes, alright :) lets use this one below?

Seriously? Something divisible down to 1 cent is only "moderately" divisible? How low do you need to go and why? What's the fucking purpose?

Onvacation says

Your tables contradict each other. Is bitcoin easier to counterfeit than gold and dollars or not?

It's pretty much devolved into "let's throw some shit up on the wall and see what sticks". So sad.

Eric, Well, I think for Bitcoin its labeled as highly divisible because a "bitcoin can be divided down to 8 decimal places. Therefore, 0.00000001 BTC is the smallest amount that can be handled in a transaction"

The high divisibility for Bitcoin versus moderate divisibility for the dollar and gold are not really a reason to get angry about? Its just a slight difference in my mind.

No, Bitcoin is not easier to counterfeit. If you receive a Bitcoin to a Bitcoin address you can trust its a Bitcoin. I cant send anything else to a Bitcoin address.
You might have miss-understood the table. The thumbs up means its a positive trait for the respective asset.

G36 says

The thumbs up means its a positive trait for the respective asset.

I thought you threw that table out because it contradicts the other one?

Eric,

"How low do you need to go and why? What's the fucking purpose?"

I agree. Thats why I told Onvacation, lets just leave as is. I dont want to convince him of anything and he's trying to convince me of something with reasons that I dont agree with. Therefore, I am good as is. I was hoping to engage people like Cash to share their perspective on things. I rather spend time on discussing certain cryptos instead of having the same stuff repeated over and over with onvacation. My current strategy is to buy more crypto and hold for a year. That might change but who knows. I dont oppose more frequent trading but I think buy/hold for 12 months is best for me.

Onvacation says

G36 says

The thumbs up means its a positive trait for the respective asset.

I thought you threw that table out because it contradicts the other one?

No, I threw the first one out because this table below should be easier to follow.

G36 says

Onvacation says

G36 says

The thumbs up means its a positive trait for the respective asset.

I thought you threw that table out because it contradicts the other one?

No, I threw the first one out because this table below should be easier to follow.

But you do agree the tables you posted contradict each other . Don't you?

Onvacation says

G36 says

Onvacation says

G36 says

The thumbs up means its a positive trait for the respective asset.

I thought you threw that table out because it contradicts the other one?

No, I threw the first one out because this table below should be easier to follow.

But you do agree the tables you posted contradict each other . Don't you?

Nah, of course not. There are many tables out there and they are very similar. Who cares if you call money "moderate" in divisibility or label it as a thumbs down compared to Bitcoin. You can divide a dollar into 100 cents and one bitcoin down to 8 decimal places.
You misunderstood the the security/counterfeit part on one table. The thumbs up meant that you cant counterfeit a bitcoin.
If you really would have researched Bitcoin as you said I expect you to know this already.

https://panoramacrypto.com/is-it-possible-to-counterfeit-bitcoin-and-other-cryptocurrencies/

Really no reason to get riled up about any of this.

G36 says

>Really no reason to get riled up about any of this.

And this is good why? The need to operate with fractions having up to 8 positions after the dot is very error-prone. The "satoshi"unit is a crutch in an attempt to mitigate this flaw somewhat.

Onvacation says

G36 says

G36 says

Your tables contradict each other.

How can bitcoin be anonymous and traceable? Not only do your tables contradict each other they contradict themselves.

Onvacation says

How can bitcoin be anonymous and traceable? Not only do your tables contradict each other they contradict themselves.

I noticed that. Trying to stay away for crypto talk as we are never all going to agree. You literally cannot have something traceable yet anonymous. Crypto is also not theft proof. It's not portable when electric goes out. It's not decentralized. Big brother will come after you for taxes due because it's not anonymous. These charts are flat out propaganda. I hope you crypto guys get that. It's why we post on these threads. Almost 60-70% of what is in those charts is false.

I agree with the anonymous thing - that it can be confusing. I signed up with some exchanges and other apps (Robinhood/Paypal) to buy Bitcoin. You submit your social etc. So not anonymous. One exchange also sent me a friendly note that transactions will be reported to the IRS. :)

When I send BTC to another BTC address, the receiver doesn't know what my name is etc. So maybe that's meant by anonymous? For me this point is kind of irrelevant. I dont need it to be anonymous. I have nothing illegal in mind and have no problem with the IRS being able to trace my transactions. So the anonymous thing isnt really a talking point for me.

All Bitcoin transactions are traceable on the Blockchain. I mean this is really the point of the whole thing isnt it?
"A distributed ledger is a consensus of replicated, shared, and synchronized digital data geographically spread across multiple sites, countries, or institutions. Unlike with a distributed database, there is no central administrator"

But you dont necessarily know who owns the Bitcoin address. You would maybe know if you are in contact with the exchanges and they tie the address to a user account on their exchange.

Wookie, I would say its decentralized. No single entity is in charge of Bitcoin. However, I do agree the government can shut down exchanges and if that happens you cant easily convert it to FIAT. I dont mind or fear regulation by the government. I think its absolutely essential to have a tax framework and other regulation on crypto.

I would not say that these tables are propaganda. You try to compare Fiat, Gold and Bitcoin. If you guys have a better comparison table, please share. I literally spend 2 min on pulling this. There are tons out there. The last one here is my favorite out of the two but if someone has another one please share.

A lot on these tables is obvious and self explanatory....obviously you cannot program FIAT or Gold. Obviously FIAT is not scarce. Obviously a brick of gold isnt as easy to move as a crypto hardware wallet (kind of like a USB stick). Its just meant to compare and show the traits of the three not to bash one over the other. Its gotta be fair, so this should be a line item as well:
Government can shut down exchanges: No for Fiat, Yes for Crypto.

built a position in some other cryptos

G36 says

If you guys have a better comparison table, please share.

LOL, I said a better one. Not one that leaves out the most important traits.
Conveniently you left out scarcity, decentralization, security (cannot be counterfeited), programmability. And you list "pays dividends, we know Bitcoin, Gold and the dollar doesn't pay a dividend. Other cryptos do though (staking).But Bitcoin has appreciated greatly over the years.