patrick.net

Smart Money and Governments and Secret Organizations hate the Dollar so much, that when bonds are issued by the Treasury at bupkiss interest, or they have an opportunity to snatch up suitcases full of cash, everybody runs to snatch it up. Some people like to have a little gold as a hedge against uncertainty.

Meanwhile, as soon as most people hear Buttcoin, they're like "Here comes a scam"

onvacation, i enjoy the debate too, but it would be helpful if you could clarify a few things and answer the questions.

For instance,
Since the price per tech stock is multiple times greater than its intrinsic value, do you see AMZN stock holders as part of the greater fool theory?

And, you said if someone sells Bitcoin at a higher price he/she is no longer a fool. You also said, people who bought the last all time high (at 20k) are fools. What about the people that bought the all time high at 1k in the previous bull run and are still holding? Are they also fools?

I wouldn't describe it as FOMO (me putting money in Bitcoin). I think "No" about the breastfeeding question. But I don't really remember. Since you asked, did your mom stop too soon?

NoCoupForYou says

Smart Money and Governments and Secret Organizations hate the Dollar so much, that when bonds are issued by the Treasury at bupkiss interest, or they have an opportunity to snatch up suitcases full of cash, everybody runs to snatch it up. Some people like to have a little gold as a hedge against uncertainty.

Meanwhile, as soon as most people hear Buttcoin, they're like "Here comes a scam"

It used to be like this (that most people who hear Bitcoin thought it was short lived and a scam). I think that is changing though. You see Bitcoin being discussed in the media and very few call it a scam anymore. You also have reputable trading websites offer to transact crypto (Robinhood) and reputable companies invest in it one way or the other (Square/Paypal).

People tell me Amazon used to be a book store and back then most people had physical CD's or rented/bought VHS/CD movies. Books, CDs, movies, its all digital nowadays. Why shouldn't you be able to digitalize money or gold?
In case you like shiny things you can always buy physical gold in addition. Or you buy a nice shiny car.

G36 says

Since you asked, did your mom stop too soon?

Yeah. She said I was a biter.

Onvacation says

G36 says

Since you asked, did your mom stop too soon?

Yeah. She said I was a biter.

interesting story. Why not answer the other questions as well?

G36 says

And, you said if someone sells Bitcoin at a higher price he/she is no longer a fool. You also said, people who bought the last all time high (at 20k) are fools. What about the people that bought the all time high at 1k in the previous bull run and are still holding? Are they also fools?

Foolish to HODL, smart to get out.

It's a ponzi scheme. Some make a bunch of money most lose.

G36 says

interesting story. Why not answer the other questions as well?

Your turn, what is the intrinsic value of Bitcoin. I don't think anyone has summarized. Example:
Real estate is intrinsically valuable because you can do stuff on land.
Stocks are intrinsically valuable because you share ownership of a company.
Gold is intrinsically valuable because it is shiny and has many uses.
Bitcoin is intrinsically valuable because... Why?

I agree to disagree and i dont think you have much more to add than Bitcoin=ponzi=no intrinsic value.

I dont see how its foolish to buy the ATH and HODL Bitcoin. If you would have done this during the last bull run at a 1K ATH you would be sitting on a massive profit right now. I cant call these people fools. I wish I would have done that. Easy to say now of course.

A low or non existing Intrinsic value doesnt mean the price on an asset or a crypto currency cant or shouldnt go up over time.
That's why you dont answer the question about tech stocks and their intrinsic value.....Tech stocks trade multiple times over their intrinsic value and continue to go up (most likely).

Nobody says you should invest in anything here, but your reasons and labels dont apply in my mind. its all good though. No hard feelings, but I do think this isnt advancing the debate. We agree on a lot of topics things but not Bitcoin. Fine by me.

"Gold is intrinsically valuable because its shiny and has many uses." Great. I invested in gold before but it didnt do much. I didnt hold it physically and the shiny thing is not really important to me. The uses (traits) are definitely a good point.

G36 says

That's why you dont answer the question about tech stocks and their intrinsic value.....Tech stocks trade multiple times over their intrinsic value and continue to go up (most likely).

Can't you see the difference? Tech stocks, no matter how overvalued still have intrinsic value, until they don't.

Bitcoin has no intrinsic value and never will. It cost a lot of electricity just to maintain and will require more energy up to it's final mining phase projected in 2040. At that point, with all the bitcoins "mined" the "miners" will be working for transaction fees.

If all the coins are held by HODLers who's gonna do transactions? If nobody does transactions how is the blockchain going to be maintained? Or at the point when all of the coins are mined will the blockchain be static so we know (don't know) who all the HODLers are?

It's a scam.

G36 says

G36 says

Your tables contradict each other. Is bitcoin easier to counterfeit than gold and dollars or not?

Relax :) its all good.
we dont have to agree. Lets just leave it at that. You are not going to convince me because I disagree with a few of your points. And I dont intent to convince you on anything.

"Can't you see the difference? Tech stocks, no matter how overvalued still have intrinsic value, until they don't."

You say the tech stock is overvalued because its trading way above its intrinsic value. And I say, I dont agree with this. I agree however with what you said earlier, the current monetary system (low interest environment) encourages this. I dont have an issue with investing in something that has a low or non-existing intrinsic value.
I dont pay with my 100 dollar bill and tell people, hey, the intrinsic value of this piece of paper is only 14 cents!

I am fine with you calling us Bitcoin investors all kinds of things and calling the whole thing a scam, ponzi whatever. I just leave it as is.

Dollar has no "divisibility"? Seriously? Ever heard of cents? =)) And how the fuck cash dollars have no anonymity? Ever heard about kidnappers demanding ransom to be paid in small previosly circulated dollar bills? Ever wondered why?

That picture is a fucking joke.

G36 says

I am fine with you calling us Bitcoin investors all kinds of things and calling the whole thing a scam, ponzi whatever. I just leave it as is.

So you got nothing with regard to the intrinsic value of bitcoin.

Just don't be the last greatest fool.

Eric Holder says


Dollar has no "divisibility"? Seriously? Ever heard of cents? =)) And how the fuck cash dollars have no anonymity? Ever heard about kidnappers demanding ransom to be paid in small previosly circulated dollar bills? Ever wondered why?

That picture is a fucking joke.

holy smokes, alright :) lets use this one below?

I am so happy that gold or dollars are not smart. That would be scary.

G36 says

Eric Holder says


Dollar has no "divisibility"? Seriously? Ever heard of cents? =)) And how the fuck cash dollars have no anonymity? Ever heard about kidnappers demanding ransom to be paid in small previosly circulated dollar bills? Ever wondered why?

That picture is a fucking joke.

holy smokes, alright :) lets use this one below?

Seriously? Something divisible down to 1 cent is only "moderately" divisible? How low do you need to go and why? What's the fucking purpose?

Onvacation says

Your tables contradict each other. Is bitcoin easier to counterfeit than gold and dollars or not?

It's pretty much devolved into "let's throw some shit up on the wall and see what sticks". So sad.

Eric, Well, I think for Bitcoin its labeled as highly divisible because a "bitcoin can be divided down to 8 decimal places. Therefore, 0.00000001 BTC is the smallest amount that can be handled in a transaction"

The high divisibility for Bitcoin versus moderate divisibility for the dollar and gold are not really a reason to get angry about? Its just a slight difference in my mind.

No, Bitcoin is not easier to counterfeit. If you receive a Bitcoin to a Bitcoin address you can trust its a Bitcoin. I cant send anything else to a Bitcoin address.
You might have miss-understood the table. The thumbs up means its a positive trait for the respective asset.

G36 says

The thumbs up means its a positive trait for the respective asset.

I thought you threw that table out because it contradicts the other one?

Eric,

"How low do you need to go and why? What's the fucking purpose?"

I agree. Thats why I told Onvacation, lets just leave as is. I dont want to convince him of anything and he's trying to convince me of something with reasons that I dont agree with. Therefore, I am good as is. I was hoping to engage people like Cash to share their perspective on things. I rather spend time on discussing certain cryptos instead of having the same stuff repeated over and over with onvacation. My current strategy is to buy more crypto and hold for a year. That might change but who knows. I dont oppose more frequent trading but I think buy/hold for 12 months is best for me.

Onvacation says

G36 says

The thumbs up means its a positive trait for the respective asset.

I thought you threw that table out because it contradicts the other one?

No, I threw the first one out because this table below should be easier to follow.

G36 says

Onvacation says

G36 says

The thumbs up means its a positive trait for the respective asset.

I thought you threw that table out because it contradicts the other one?

No, I threw the first one out because this table below should be easier to follow.

But you do agree the tables you posted contradict each other . Don't you?

Onvacation says

G36 says

Onvacation says

G36 says

The thumbs up means its a positive trait for the respective asset.

I thought you threw that table out because it contradicts the other one?

No, I threw the first one out because this table below should be easier to follow.

But you do agree the tables you posted contradict each other . Don't you?

Nah, of course not. There are many tables out there and they are very similar. Who cares if you call money "moderate" in divisibility or label it as a thumbs down compared to Bitcoin. You can divide a dollar into 100 cents and one bitcoin down to 8 decimal places.
You misunderstood the the security/counterfeit part on one table. The thumbs up meant that you cant counterfeit a bitcoin.
If you really would have researched Bitcoin as you said I expect you to know this already.

https://panoramacrypto.com/is-it-possible-to-counterfeit-bitcoin-and-other-cryptocurrencies/

Really no reason to get riled up about any of this.

G36 says

>Really no reason to get riled up about any of this.

And this is good why? The need to operate with fractions having up to 8 positions after the dot is very error-prone. The "satoshi"unit is a crutch in an attempt to mitigate this flaw somewhat.

Onvacation says

G36 says

G36 says

Your tables contradict each other.

How can bitcoin be anonymous and traceable? Not only do your tables contradict each other they contradict themselves.

Onvacation says

How can bitcoin be anonymous and traceable? Not only do your tables contradict each other they contradict themselves.

I noticed that. Trying to stay away for crypto talk as we are never all going to agree. You literally cannot have something traceable yet anonymous. Crypto is also not theft proof. It's not portable when electric goes out. It's not decentralized. Big brother will come after you for taxes due because it's not anonymous. These charts are flat out propaganda. I hope you crypto guys get that. It's why we post on these threads. Almost 60-70% of what is in those charts is false.

I agree with the anonymous thing - that it can be confusing. I signed up with some exchanges and other apps (Robinhood/Paypal) to buy Bitcoin. You submit your social etc. So not anonymous. One exchange also sent me a friendly note that transactions will be reported to the IRS. :)

When I send BTC to another BTC address, the receiver doesn't know what my name is etc. So maybe that's meant by anonymous? For me this point is kind of irrelevant. I dont need it to be anonymous. I have nothing illegal in mind and have no problem with the IRS being able to trace my transactions. So the anonymous thing isnt really a talking point for me.

All Bitcoin transactions are traceable on the Blockchain. I mean this is really the point of the whole thing isnt it?
"A distributed ledger is a consensus of replicated, shared, and synchronized digital data geographically spread across multiple sites, countries, or institutions. Unlike with a distributed database, there is no central administrator"

But you dont necessarily know who owns the Bitcoin address. You would maybe know if you are in contact with the exchanges and they tie the address to a user account on their exchange.

Wookie, I would say its decentralized. No single entity is in charge of Bitcoin. However, I do agree the government can shut down exchanges and if that happens you cant easily convert it to FIAT. I dont mind or fear regulation by the government. I think its absolutely essential to have a tax framework and other regulation on crypto.

I would not say that these tables are propaganda. You try to compare Fiat, Gold and Bitcoin. If you guys have a better comparison table, please share. I literally spend 2 min on pulling this. There are tons out there. The last one here is my favorite out of the two but if someone has another one please share.

A lot on these tables is obvious and self explanatory....obviously you cannot program FIAT or Gold. Obviously FIAT is not scarce. Obviously a brick of gold isnt as easy to move as a crypto hardware wallet (kind of like a USB stick). Its just meant to compare and show the traits of the three not to bash one over the other. Its gotta be fair, so this should be a line item as well:
Government can shut down exchanges: No for Fiat, Yes for Crypto.

built a position in some other cryptos

G36 says

If you guys have a better comparison table, please share.

LOL, I said a better one. Not one that leaves out the most important traits.
Conveniently you left out scarcity, decentralization, security (cannot be counterfeited), programmability. And you list "pays dividends, we know Bitcoin, Gold and the dollar doesn't pay a dividend. Other cryptos do though (staking).But Bitcoin has appreciated greatly over the years.

this one
I would almost like to add appreciation? The dollar loses purchasing power each year. Gold is somewhat stable. Bitcoin is outperforming.



BTC has greatly outperformed Gold:

https://charts.woobull.com/bitcoin-vs-gold/

G36 says

Conveniently you left out scarcity

What happens in 2040 when the last coin is mined?
G36 says

security (cannot be counterfeited)

Bitcoin can be lost or stolen, just like Gold and cash.
G36 says

programmability.

What does that mean?

in 2040? how do you come up with that? I thought you researched Bitcoin?
Security: already answered that, scroll up.
"what does that mean" really? Do I recall you are claiming to be a software engineer or is it being back to being permanently on vacation now? :)

G36 says

Conveniently you left out scarcity, decentralization, security (cannot be counterfeited), programmability.

Onvacation and I are on the same page. As I converse about this topic I'm trying to be less combative as it doesn't move the conversation forward. If your coin hits an internet connected computer or is acquired through an exchange, it by default is not secure from theft. Neither is gold (I'm not a gold bug). But I can at least invest in my own safe and weapons to protect it. Talking physical gold here. Government would never know about it as long as I wasn't withdrawing $10k+ cash from the bank to purchase physical gold. By default it's better.

Factor in we just assume we'll have electricity all the time, which is needed for BTC or crypto to even exist. That's not a given in times of turmoil when you might need to stay alive and transact with something. Even dollars would be effective if a nuclear EMP went off. We're a first world country that will experience 3rd world conditions at some point. In that case, crypto is 100% useless.

All that said, I really do want you guys to make money. Unless you attack me or my family, I want everyone to succeed. I always want to be the best, but I know other people are smarter and more successful than I can be. I'm not jealous. Good for them, they did the work and in some cases got lucky. I don't begrudge them. Crypto is extraordinarily dangerous though. There's no counter to my above gold comments and I have exactly $0 invested in gold physical or funds. Tread lightly and keep your risk to a minimum of financial assets. When it crashes you likely won't even have the time to react. So take the gains when you can to pay off your original investment is my only advice. Do not hold it as an investment long term.

G36 says

in 2040? how do you come up with that? I thought you researched Bitcoin?
Security: already answered that, scroll up.
"what does that mean" really? Do I recall you are claiming to be a software engineer or is it being back to being permanently on vacation now? :)

So you are "investing" in something you don't understand? Seriously, you don't know that the artificially scarce bitcoins are estimated to be all "mined" by the year 2040?

You say Bitcoin is programmable as one of its features. What does that mean to you?

Wookie, I think you have some great points.
Yes, exchanges can be hacked and your crypto can be stolen. But you cant counterfeit one Bitcoin. Also, my hardware wallet can be stolen. Then I would have to restore it.
You cant do much with my hardware wallet without password/private keys.

Electricity is absolutely needed. If a nuclear EMP went off we would be in trouble. 20, 30, 50 years from now our electricity consumption will likely continue to increase. My solar panels are doing a great job though to avoid the monthly bill.

I am actually planning on holding long term (at least a year). We'll see how I do. I posted my screenshots.

What I like about your posts is that you have valid points without calling people names (Bitcoin investors are fools, millennials are idiots, etc).

OnVacation said he researched Bitcoin but in his comparison he leaves out the key differences like scarcity, decentralization and the fact that a Bitcoin cannot be faked/counterfeited. It also doesn't make sense to call Bitcoin investors fools and say at the same time when they sell at a profit, they are no longer fools. As you said, that kind of style doesnt move the conversation forward. And I dont think he actually wants to have a meaningful conversation.

G36 says

OnVacation said he researched Bitcoin but in his comparison he leaves out the key differences like scarcity, decentralization and the fact that a Bitcoin cannot be faked/counterfeited. It also doesn't make sense to call Bitcoin investors fools and say at the same time when they sell at a profit, they are no longer fools. As you said, that kind of style doesnt move the conversation forward. And I dont think he actually wants to have a meaningful conversation.

He's blunt. That can rub people the wrong way. Doesn't mean he's wrong though. Also doesn't mean it should influence what you do. I don't think he has a problem with your investments, but a lot of crypto guys/gals make grand claims that it's going to the moon. You haven't done that, but it's why we're skeptical of anyone posting on the topic. Is this a pump basically?

By default, it's riskier than gold, stocks and other traditional investments. The biggest negative for me is not knowing if someone holds 50% of all coins or not. Nobody knows that. That person/entity could manipulate the market and you'd be toast in 10 minutes. Happens with penny stocks all the time and those entities have to report on financials and ownership. I'm a broken record, but knowing a couple people that have gotten burned and lives destroyed, I despise crypto. Doesn't mean it cannot make someone money. It's just there are better and safer ways.

Inflation would go crazy, but I really do wish everyone makes a shit load of money in whatever they do. I personally don't believe crypto is a path to wealth outside of it being a lotto ticket and you win big or maybe the $20 scratch off variety and you win $200. Most the time you're going to lose. The beauty in all this is if I'm wrong it doesn't matter as I'm not invested in it. I do wish y'all luck though. As Onvacation says though, don't be left holding the bag during the inevitable collapse. It's a when not if.

Onvacation, what are you talking about. How do you come up with that. Provide a source! You said you researched it.

Thats fair Wookie. I dont make ANY claims other than showing what I bought. I simply want to see what happens in a year from now by holding. Maybe (hopefully) I will be in a position to brag about gains or maybe I will lose money. Thats not pumping.
Yes, its a lot riskier! The gains and loses can be extremely higher than traditional investments.

Onvacation is not just blunt though. He makes claims and doesnt provide a source (2040??) and he does his own comparison between BTC, gold and money and didnt even include key differences like scarcity/decentralization. He's obviously just here to bash and misinform.

G36 says

Onvacation, what are you talking about. How do you come up with that. Provide a source! You said you researched it.

What are you talking about?