patrick.net

G36 says

Thinking onvacation is trolling us or is a gold bug that sees Bitcoin as a threat to his stash. Why else post misinformation and do the name calling thing. He seems a bit too riled up about Bitcoin.

I never directly called you a fool I said that I think people who buy Bitcoin as an investment are foolish, especially the HODLers. Debate me and tell me where I am wrong. Otherwise this is just a personal attack.

Shaman says

No money has any intrinsic value.

I disagree. For many millennia silver, gold, and base metals have been used as money. They have other practical uses, thus intrinsic value.

A penny or nickel have intrinsic value. All of the current world currencies are backed by the faith and good credit of the issuing country. I guess you could use some bills to start a fire or wipe your ass and you can trade them for things of real value, like silver and gold, but they have no intrinsic value.
From wiki:

An intrinsic theory of value (also called theory of objective value) is any theory of value in economics which holds that the value of an object, good or service, is intrinsic, meaning that it can be estimated using objective measures. Most such theories look to the process of producing an item, and the costs involved in that process, as a measure of the item's intrinsic value. Paradigmatically, money is supposed to be good, but not intrinsically good: it is supposed to be good because it leads to other good things, such as buying better teaching equipments at a local primary school.[1] The explanation aims to differentiate the original meaning of intrinsic value from the actual physical benefit it has.

as opposed to subjective value:

The subjective theory of value is a theory of value which advances the idea that the value of a good is not determined by any inherent property of the good, nor by the amount of labor necessary to produce the good, but instead value is determined by the importance an acting individual places on a good for the achievement of his desired ends

People often don't differentiate between the two.

Don't forget the old saying, "If you don't know who the fool in the game is, it might be you".

No doubt people make money from crypto, but only money that others lose and at great expense in energy consumption.

Onvacation says

G36 says

Thinking onvacation is trolling us or is a gold bug that sees Bitcoin as a threat to his stash. Why else post misinformation and do the name calling thing. He seems a bit too riled up about Bitcoin.

Debate me and tell me where I am wrong.

You said the last Bitcoin will be mined in 2040 but couldnt provide a source. Than you finally admitted you were wrong and that the last Bitcoin will be mined in 2140.

You first said you only invest in food and entertainment because you are on vacation. Later on you admitted you lied and you are investing in mutual funds.

You also said you researched Bitcoin yet you dont even know the key traits of Bitcoin (decentralization, scarcity, cannot be counterfeited). You either never researched it, or you did a lousy job or you are a troll.

Hackers are getting into the act. It’s estimated that 90 percent of all remote hacking is now focused on bitcoin theft by commandeering other people’s computers to mine coins

G36 says

You either never researched it, or you did a lousy job or you are a troll

LOL. Hook, line, and sinker.

G36 says

You first said you only invest in food and entertainment

I never said that.

Onvacation says

G36 says

You either never researched it, or you did a lousy job or you are a troll

LOL. Hook, line, and sinker.

How else do you explain your ignorance? You were 100 years off. and you dont know/understand the key traits of Bitcoin.

Onvacation says

G36 says

You first said you only invest in food and entertainment

I never said that.

aaaand more lies

G36 says

How else do you explain your ignorance? You were 100 years off. and you dont know/understand the key traits of Bitcoin.

LOL

G36 says

Onvacation says

G36 says

You first said you only invest in food and entertainment

I never said that.

aaaand more lies

I never said I ONLY invest in food and entertainment.

Calm down dude. There are a lot of trolls out there. I am telling you my fact based opinion on bitcoin.

I had a friend who's son was an early adopter back when you could "mine" bitcoin on your PC fairly easily. He accumulated so many "coins" that when btc hit its all time high he was a bitcoin "millionaire" He sold a few coins, had a great time, btc went down, and now he is almost a bitcoin millionaire.

Who cares?

We have more than one paper millionaire on this forum. Hard work or luck make us wealthy. I have always believed in hard work, dollar cost averaging, and honest dealing with mutual gain. I have always told my kids the harder you work now the less hard you will have to work later. Find a career you can be passionate about and make the world a better place.

Success is not a destination you arrive at it is an altitude you fly at.

Bitcoin does not make the world a better place. Please don't take my criticism personally.

Onvacation says

.

. I am telling you my fact based opinion on bitcoin.

.

your facts dont make it actual facts :)





Before you post any of your facts you should provide links....that helps you to fact check yourself :)

Onvacation says

Success is not a destination you arrive at it is an altitude you fly at

And why successful people are still going to be successful under either a right or left administration. Also why losers are never going to be successful regardless of all the government subsidies they receive.

G36 says

Before you post any of your facts you should provide links....that helps you to fact check yourself

Why? We can fact check each other.

I think we are both more informed about crypto.

Good day sir.

Even ordinary buyers are flouting the law. Tax law requires that every sale of cryptocurrency be recorded as a capital gain or loss and, of course, most bitcoin sellers fail to do so. The IRS recently ordered one major exchange to produce records of every significant transaction.

And yet, a prominent Silicon Valley promoter of bitcoin proclaims that “Bitcoin is going to transform society ... Bitcoin’s been very resilient. It stayed alive during a very difficult time when there was the Silk Road mess, when Mt. Gox stole all that Bitcoin ...” He argues the criminal activity shows that bitcoin is strong. I’d say it shows that bitcoin is used for criminal activity.

He argues the criminal activity shows that bitcoin is strong. I’d say it shows that bitcoin is used for criminal activity.

Yep, any victim of ransomware could tell you that.

Shaman says

No money has any intrinsic value.

Right, not even gold really has intrinsic value aside from betting pretty and conducting electricity well.

From my own book (readme.txt in the header above):

Money is control over labor. No one is wealthy without workers.

To be rich is to make others obey you. Money sets you free by capturing others.

Money makes you do what you didn't want to do.

Money is not as real as most people think. It depends on belief.

Money is worth what you can buy with it.
If there is nothing to buy, money has no worth.
What you can buy depends on the number of working people.

The rich drive up costs for the poor when they buy, especially real estate.

The rich have many people dependent on them for some service, which is how they
in turn get others to serve them. "He is in software" or "He is in
manufacturing" means that he has control over software or some good that people
need, and therefore people will serve him to get it, or serve those who serve
him in a wide and obscure loop, but always a loop. You don't do for others
without others doing for you -- unless you love them.

The money loop runs in the opposite direction from actual goods and services.
Whomever you pay ultimately pays your boss.

What makes money is what happens. What does not make money does not happen.

How can I get your money? Business, theft, taxation, fines, donations.

The only sure way to protect money is to spend it.

Money can't buy love, being the opposite of love.

Lawyer: What did you do with the loot from the bank robbery?
Defendant: I spent most of it on hookers and coke. The rest I wasted.

Onvacation says

Even ordinary buyers are flouting the law. Tax law requires that every sale of cryptocurrency be recorded as a capital gain or loss and, of course, most bitcoin sellers fail to do so. The IRS recently ordered one major exchange to produce records of every significant transaction.

.

Not one but most major exchanges report to the IRS
https://www.forbes.com/sites/shehanchandrasekera/2020/01/27/how-the-irs-knows-you-owe-crypto-taxes/?sh=6d20db71438e
Good. You want some regulation and a clear tax framework. There are still questions they are working on (for instance staking rewards).

The entire, Bitcoin-is-only-used-by-criminals and Bitcoin investors dont pay taxes is total trash. The number of Bitcoin addresses (users) increases steadily and many Nasdaq listed companies invest in Bitcoin either directly or indirectly (Paypal, Square, Microstrategies). Now Billionaire Hedge Fund Manager Stan Druckenmiller (Druckenmiller is among the 400 wealthiest investors) has invested in Bitcoin.

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3633845-stanley-druckenmiller-buys-bitcoin

Where is the proof/indication that most traders/companies dont record their taxes? Just another try to bash without any weblinks/proof. The header of this thread really is very fitting : "Bitcoin Misinformation". That's really what onvacation does, spread misinformation. No offense, but I would call it trolling.

Does anyone here know if onvacation invests/holds gold/silver? He acts like someone who is seeing Bitcoin as a threat.

Ponzi scheme - Wikipedia
Search domain en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_schemehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme
A Ponzi scheme (/ ˈ p ɒ n z i /, Italian: ; also a Ponzi game) is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors. The scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from product sales or other means, and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds.

Who's gonna fund the next bitcoin millionaire?

I thought this video was educational:

www.youtube.com/embed/FJ-0b6NLo4Q

Wait, no it was this one:

www.youtube.com/embed/Cg10yYZjK94&t=102s

Literally everything is a scheme to part you from your money. Crypto is no different. Vacations part you from your money. It's the return that matters. Emotional, monetary, etc. I'll take a vacation 10 out of 10 times over investing in crypto is my perspective. If you choose to invest in crypto, that's your decision. The money is going to be taken from you at some point either way or given to heirs. Might was well enjoy life as stress free as possible. Crypto is stress by definition. And for that reason, I'm out.

"Bitcoin is absurdly wasteful of natural resources. Because it is so compute-intensive, it takes as much electricity to create a single bitcoin — a process called “mining” — as it does to power an average American household for two years. If bitcoin were used for a large portion of the world’s commerce (which won’t happen), it would consume a very large portion of the world’s electricity, diverting scarce power from useful purposes."

"Bitcoin is scheduled to hit the 20.5 million mark by 2030. Considering that there will only ever be 21 million bitcoin in existence, this means that it will take approximately 110 years for the next 500,000 coins to be mined. “Considering how many BTC will be lost at that point and how distributed the economy should be, 500k more coins to mine will be a lot of coins,” one user wrote. "

WookieMan says

Literally everything is a scheme to part you from your money. Crypto is no different. Vacations part you from your money. It's the return that matters. Emotional, monetary, etc. I'll take a vacation 10 out of 10 times over investing in crypto is my perspective. If you choose to invest in crypto, that's your decision. The money is going to be taken from you at some point either way or given to heirs. Might was well enjoy life as stress free as possible. Crypto is stress by definition. And for that reason, I'm out.

Wookie.
Totally cool. Nobody is trying to make you invest in Crypto. You have good points too.
I believe 90% of traders (applies to stocks and other asset classes) are losing money. I am not really into trading. I buy&hold stocks and recently crypto.

Obviously, I would also rather just spend money than make money. I used to not invest in crypto because I determined it was too risky for me. Now that institutional players are getting in, it changed my perspective. Why would reputable companies like Paypal/Square and Hedge fund guys invest in it? Isnt that how it usually goes? Wall street goes in and retails follows later? I doubt that we are all smarter than these guys. They are obviously making big investments here for the long term. (Square=50M in BTC, Paypal according to Forbes is a 50B stimulus check for Bitcoin: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ronshevlin/2020/10/25/paypals-new-service-is-a-50-billion-stimulus-check-for-bitcoin/?sh=20aee1511c4c and Microstragy invested 250M in Bitcoin). I think that's just the beginning. Personally, I have a hard time just disregarding all this news as "nothing".

For my risk profile, investing in Bitcoin offers high reward potential for a risk that I am willing to take. Others see that completely different. Totally fine.
We'll see how it plays out.

G36 says

For my risk profile, investing in Bitcoin

Gambling. Beyond a power intensive scheme to part rubes from their money and fund international crime there is no there there.

G36 says

Why would reputable companies like Paypal/Square and Hedge fund guys invest in it?

Valid point, but they may know something you do not. Big money is everything. They may see a market they can leverage and manipulate. It's the internet, so I get some won't believe me, but my uncle has 9 figure wealth. Outside of politics, he gets to do what he wants, when he wants to do it. He can buy a company for $3-4 million and not bat an eye. Purchase property that churns off $100k/mo profit as a landlord. The mindset is completely different.

At some point, the toy they're playing with becomes worthless. They are even okay losing money. It's a difficult game to win when you're playing with the kids that don't care about losing their toys because they have storage units and safes full of them.

I get that. A rich dude may spend money left and right and doesnt care. But that may not apply to the next guy. I do know people how are well off and you would never know how wealthy they are because they dont like to show it and behave super frugal.

G36 says

Obviously, I would also rather just spend money than make money. I used to not invest in crypto because I determined it was too risky for me. Now that institutional players are getting in, it changed my perspective. Why would reputable companies like Paypal/Square and Hedge fund guys invest in it? Isnt that how it usually goes? Wall street goes in and retails follows later? I doubt that we are all smarter than these guys. They are obviously making big investments here for the long term. (Square=50M in BTC, Paypal according to Forbes is a 50B stimulus check for Bitcoin: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ronshevlin/2020/10/25/paypals-new-service-is-a-50-billion-stimulus-check-for-bitcoin/?sh=20aee1511c4c and Microstragy invested 250M in Bitcoin). I think that's just the beginning. Personally, I have a hard time just di...

Let them have their half baked opinions and assume all they wish. My assumption is get ready for the rocket ride BTC/USD 16800+/- and on a good/better day 17250 should be challenged and hopefully breached sooner then later but it really don't matter due to my 24000 is clearly in sight....

G36 says

I do know people how are well off and you would never know how wealthy they are because they dont like to show it and behave super frugal.

Eh, if they're well off they show it. Warren Buffet I know will come up as an example. That's the anomaly in the equation. Even then his wealth is just straight up known.

I know real estate. I know the location in AZ. My uncle has a $10-15M house that he paid $7M to build and holds the neighboring lot as well. All his neighbors are extremely well know people. Tax records don't lie. Wealthy people like to show what they've accomplished. Poor people do the same in trying to keep up with the Jones' purchasing homes at the max end of their budget. That's ultimately what crypto is. "The Jones' got crypto, I need some."

As I've said 1,000 times. You can make money. I just think you're chasing the life changing investment in the trailer park owned by a billionaire.

Absolutely Wookie. I am not a rich guy. I tried it with stocks but the wide range of 8-15% profit annually doesn't cut it for me. We'll see what happens.

G36 says

Absolutely Wookie. I am not a rich guy. I tried it with stocks but the wide range of 8-15% profit annually doesn't cut it for me. We'll see what happens.

Good luck. 37 and 8% is and will do me well. It's more of a timing issue than quantity. Start early, invest 20% of income and you'll be rich. Not much else to it. And if you throw 1-5% of funny money around and do BTC I'd have no issue with it personally. Crypto should never be more than 5% of your portfolio at this point though unless you have 7-8 figures locked up savings wise (cash, not paper). Then you can really fuck around with it.

No need to dox any info, but if you're 40 plus, be careful of chasing a return or get rich quick. You're an adult obviously and maybe older than I am. Chasing a get rich dream is a recipe for disaster. Chased mine when I was 22 and lost $60k plus and a lot of labor. I learned early and recovered at a young age. s

Thanks man.
I dont believe in getting rich quick. One of the reasons why I discuss investments on sites like this instead of some fanboy/moonboy platform. Life changing money doesnt necessarily mean being rich to me. I am probably going to end up with more than 5% in Crypto. But I wouldnt really recommend that to anyone else. But I try to stay away from recommending anything. I agree with up to 5% in crypto in general. The only advice I would feel comfortable giving is DO NOT do a cash refi and stick it Crypto and DO NOT get into debt in order to speculate. :)

"Impacts of Finite Bitcoin Supply on Bitcoin Miners
It may seem that the group of individuals most directly affected by the limit of the bitcoin supply will be the bitcoin miners themselves. Some detractors of the protocol claim that miners will be forced away from the block rewards they receive for their work once the bitcoin supply has reached 21 million in circulation.

Without the incentive provided by a prize of bitcoin at the end of a rigorous and costly mining process, miners may not be driven to continue to support the network. This would have disastrous effects for bitcoin.

Mining is not just a process by which new tokens are introduced into the ecosystem; it is first and foremost the way in which the decentralized blockchain is supported and maintained (in the absence of a central bank or other single authority). If miners abandon their work, the network may be forced to move toward centralization or collapse entirely.2

Even when the last bitcoin has been produced, miners will likely continue to actively and competitively participate and validate new transactions. The reason is that every bitcoin transaction has a small transaction fee attached to it.

These fees, while today representing a few hundred dollars per block, could potentially rise to many thousands of dollars per block, especially as the number of transactions on the blockchain grows and as the price of a bitcoin rises. Ultimately, it will function like a closed economy, where transaction fees are assessed much like taxes."

"once the bitcoin supply has reached 21 million in circulation."

Which is projected to be in 2140. Conveniently, you left the year 2140 out of your copy/paste effort. Which you claimed to be at 2040 in previous posts. Just a 100 years off.
"The reward will continue to halve every four years until the final bitcoin has been mined. In actuality, the final bitcoin is unlikely to be mined until around the year 2140."

I like that you are reading the article though :) here the link.

https://www.investopedia.com/tech/what-happens-bitcoin-after-21-million-mined/#:~:text=In%20actuality%2C%20the%20final%20bitcoin,changed%20between%20now%20and%20then

This is a picture of just one of the bit mining "farms" that are used to create and update the bitcoin ledger. Out of a total of 21M coins 18.5M have already been "mined". As you can imagine this vast array of computers uses incredible amounts of power. As the bitcoin program plays out the miners get paid less coins per win. The computational power needed to solve the problems needed to win increases as well.

Not only does bitcoin require "the greater fool" to buy into the game, it also consumes the capital as it goes. Kind of like when the scam artist running a traditional Ponzi scheme pays the old rubes with the new rubes' money while buying a bunch of blow and escorts. The old rubes tell the new rubes, "It is an excellent investment as it always goes up and the people who run it throw one hell of a party".

Somebody has to pay for all of these computers and the power to run them. When it is no longer profitable the miners will quit and sell their custom hardware to some company using blockchain for some better purpose than a Ponzi scheme.

G36 says

Conveniently, you left the year 2140 out of your copy/paste effort. Which you claimed to be at 2040 in previous posts. Just a 100 years off.

Ya know, I think I am going to go back to my original estimate of 2040, actually I don't think it will last that long.

Onvacation says

As the bitcoin program plays out the miners get paid less coins per win. The computational power needed to solve the problems needed to win increases as well.

Several years ago there was a company in NL selling a space heater with a bitcoin mining machine inside it. The idea was to offset the cost of electricity with the bitcoins being mined and essentially get "free heat" out of it. =))

It could work some time ago but it probably wouldn't now.

More than half of the bitcoin mining operations are in China.