patrick.net

Bitcoin says

I've taken the J&J shot. One and done. I am alive and well and are scheduling pool parties at our house!

Isn't the J&J one the least objectionable one?

Booger says

Bitcoin says

I've taken the J&J shot. One and done. I am alive and well and are scheduling pool parties at our house!

Isn't the J&J one the least objectionable one?

according to our experts here the timeline is: in 6 month dementia. 1-2 death.
Until October I will remember the pool parties.

Zak says

Why do you think vaccine is more dangerous long term than covid?

Two reasons:

1. Literally injecting foreign genetic material to take over the machinery of your body has never been done on a mass scale before. Reeks of something that is likely to go horribly wrong (or horribly right, if the future problems are intentional).

2. For me, the chance of dying of the virus is so close to zero that I have no worry at all about it.

@Zak

porkchopexpress says

Please don't turn this thread into yet another G36/Bitcoin vs WookieMan battle royale.

Bitcoin - stop trolling dude or more and more people will just keep ignoring you, including me, and I share your passion for crypto.

I’ll chill. I have in other threads. He’s the one bouncing to new threads now and playing his game because he wasn’t getting attention after so many ignores.

I’ll seriously chill though.

WookieMan says

Bitcoin vs WookieMan

Its not really a Vs. lol. Just me calling out his jealousy and BS predictions. ("bitcoin will go to 1.2k" ....still smiling about this one)

@patrick
" Literally injecting foreign genetic material to take over the machinery of your body has never been done on a mass scale before."

That's the definition of a virus. That's literally what covid is... it's even more sinister than that. It's mutated to sneakily bypass our bodies natural foreign body barriers. This is what I mean about the virus is literally worse than the injection, and by definition, it is subject to replication mutation. These are all ways in which actually viruses are worse and bad, which is why I'm trying to understand if people are forgetting this.

Both things are risks, and are taking over your body's machinery to produce a design of its choice. In the human case, it is non-replicating, and generating a protein to illicit an immune response to fight the one that actually takes over machinery and self replicates, causes respiratory damage, potentially mutates, and spreads to other potentially vulnerable people just by getting close to them... It's already mutating, so we know that more mutations are coming the more people are infected... why not reduce yourself as an infection pathway with a chance of mutation?

Zak says

@patrick
" Literally injecting foreign genetic material to take over the machinery of your body has never been done on a mass scale before."

That's the definition of a virus. That's literally what covid is... it's even more sinister than that. It's mutated to sneakily bypass our bodies natural foreign body barriers. This is what I mean about the virus is literally worse than the injection, and by definition, it is subject to replication mutation. These are all ways in which actually viruses are worse and bad, which is why I'm trying to understand if people are forgetting this.

Both things are risks, and are taking over your body's machinery to produce a design of its choice. In the human case, it is non-replicating, and generating a protein to illicit an immune response to fight the one that actually takes over machinery and self replicates, causes respiratory damage, potentially mutates, and spreads to other potentially vulnerable people just by getting close to them...

Because your arm is heavily vascular and it may spread everywhere, coated to evade your bodies primary defenses to produce the spike protein. Much more sinister. Sure the vector DNA and mrna is designed to deteriorate by itself but it still leaves the body with a potentially large immune reaction after being tricked initially. And with lingering inflammatory effects. Also the antibodies produced against the spike protein deteriorate quickly, i.e. it's not part of a long lasting immune response and would be subject to continuous boosters. However on natural infection there's also T and B cell response which have a much longer memory in recognizing sars cov 2 and variants long after the antibodies have faded. Also in animal models ADE was a huge problem eventually killing the animals. Only vaccinated people are at risk of ADE, the more they get vaccinated the greater the risk. Of course the virus and the bodies overreaction can so cause severe damage but you have an array of therapies now which given early will prevent serious disease progression.

Zak says

That's the definition of a virus.

Not exactly. In the case of a virus, a few particles start to replicate themselves in your nose, giving the body quite a bit of warning so that it can defend itself.

This is very different from a deliberate mass injection of foreign mRNA by piercing your skin and shooting it directly into your bloodstream.

It just feels very very wrong to me, especially because I there is a large profit motive and very little testing.

@patrick
" In the case of a virus, a few particles start to replicate themselves in your nose, giving the body quite a bit of warning so that it can defend itself."

If this was the case, we wouldn't have 500k oldsters dead, and tens or hundred thousands more with other lingering problems.

Aids is just a virus too, right? What did it mutate from before it was AIDS?

Although you are right in that there is strong evidence that the initial viral load exposure seems to have an impact on the severity of a given infection due to the replication multiplier getting that many more times of the virus into your system for your immune cells to deal with... With mRNA.. yet another problem that doesn't exist....no replication...

Zak says

I wanted to pause for a bit after tpb s announcement about his mom. You guys keep bringing up that you dont know what side effects there may be from this potentially nefarios biological agent. Im trying to understand if you all think it is more likely unintended vs intended side effects you are worried about. And the other thing im trying to understand is no one knows long term side effects of covid either. Why do you think vaccine is more dangerous long term than covid??? Covid may have come from a chinese lab too!!!

So the vaccine may have a 1 in 40000 fataliry rate vs covid w 1 in 1500... why wouldnt side effect chances follow this pattern? Dont need science... just what is your take on that...?

We're all getting Covid regardless of whether you get the vaccine or not. It's endemic to the world population. So, we'll all be dealing with any long-term issues that Covid may create. Now the question is, do you trust your natural immune system (plus therapeutics) to fight Covid adequately, or do you want the vaccine to help you fight it? I've already had Covid and recovered just fine, so I know my body can handle it. If you don't think you're body can handle it and think the risk of the vaccine will be less, go for it. Everything is a gamble right now.

@mell
"Also the antibodies produced against the spike protein deteriorate quickly"

I appreciate that you're looking at the data and actual information around this. I'm glad we can actually have refreshing and engaging conversations on topics like this, and get different viewpoints where people are "constructively arguing". It's one of the things I love about patnet ...

On this particular point you are correct. The same thing happens though with normal viral antibodies, or "normal vaccine" antibodies. The antibodies themselves deteriorate, but memory T cells seem to encode the antibody encoding for long term defense. Initial results seem to be promising that the mRNA sourced antibody response shares this property.

But you're 100% right, and there isn't yet long term efficacy data.. so I appreciate what you are saying is a possibility...

Zak says

It's already mutating, so we know that more mutations are coming the more people are infected... why not reduce yourself as an infection pathway with a chance of mutation?

Granted, I'm no scientist but wouldn't a strong natural immune system that is more comprehensive in its response to a virus provide less of a pathway to mutation than a very one-dimensional vaccine that makes it easier for a virus to mutate? We should be giving people immunity packs like they have in India to boost natural responses. The vaccine does not stop infection...I already know several people who have been infected, gotten sick and infected others with more than 2-3 weeks of their 2nd dose. It is NOT some silver bullet that so many people think it is. If people loaded up on Vit D, Zinc, Quercetin, Ivermectin, etc., I bet their ability to handle the virus would be as good or better than some experimental vaccine.

Patrick says

This is very different from a deliberate mass injection of foreign mRNA by piercing your skin and shooting it directly into your bloodstream.

It just feels very very wrong to me, especially because I there is a large profit motive and very little testing.

Spot on, especially when the FDA, CDC, etc. were demonizing real therapeutics just so they could get emergency FDA authorization, which requires no viable therapeutics to obtain. The fact that they pulled that bullshit makes me VERY skeptical as to why they're pushing so hard to inject everyone for a virus that we can easily manage with the proper supplementation/medication.

porkchopexpress says

We're all getting Covid regardless of whether you get the vaccine or not. It's endemic to the world population. So, we'll all be dealing with any long-term issues that Covid may create.

Yep! Why would you want Covid (just a question of when not if) and not the vaccine? Because the anti-vaxxer crowd will tell you the vaccine is more dangerous, gives you dementia (in 6months) and kills you (in 1-2years). Yep. They even have the exact timeline already!

Bitcoin says

Why would you want Covid (just a question of when not if) and not the vaccine?

Because millions of people already had Covid and most got through it just fine and have natural immunity. If you haven't had Covid, then it's up to you as to which path carries more risk.

@porkchopexpress

" If you don't think you're body can handle it and think the risk of the vaccine will be less, go for it."

I 100% agree with this statement, and the flip side too.. If you are worried your body can't handle it, then you should 100% be free to not take it..

People ask me why I "push" the vaccine then. The answer has something to do with herd immunity, mutation, dispelling FUD, and trying to bust misinformation. In some sense I'm on what people would consider the "leftist" side of this, although I think I take a fact based approach, and am not trying to push any politics.. as I'm kind of actually anti-leftist.

What I feel like I'm seeing is that somehow this DID become a political thing, and as a person on the anti-socialist side of things, I don't like that the socialist backing of the whole thing has got people anti-goving and finding the data to take the opposite approach because it's from the other political side.

Honestly, to me, if you wanted to be a diabolical socialist, you would say "since our opposition opposes basically anything we push, lets back something that would prevent our opposition from dying!" Then lots of right wing oldsters die off from covid because they don't get vaccinated, and there is no one to vote against the socialists!

Ok, that's kind of conspiracy theory land.. Really though, lots of old people are dying. Also overweight, immuno compromised, etc... And the infection rate is astounding. I've never been worried about the virus as is in it's present day for directly.. it's all the secondaries that worry me... For instance.. already, measures to reduce transmission rates at hospitals and ER's have caused OTHER deaths. Additionally, if ERs get filled to capacity, then other disease can get a foothold in our communities without being treated... And the big one.. mutation..

This thing could easily mutate to a form not covered with current vaccines.. and then it can get deadlier as well... HCQ fishtank juice is used by people already for other things.. those people were having supply issues at certain points.

None of this is terrible to the point that we need to or should do vaccine passports or the worse things that have been proposed (IMHO). I still 100% support everyone's freedom.. I just try to make my points.. Again, because it seems like if we DO squash this thing..
1) we can move on
2) 10 or 20 years down the road you won't have to worry about Covid when YOU are an oldster... (assuming you don't get it in the few years foreseeable future)
3) Many of us have parents who themselves can take the vaccine, but as others point out, it may only be good for a few months window.. If we can quash it down, we won't have repeated waves of all our mawmaws and peepops croaking from a stupidly preventable thing
4) Everything is a risk (including this vaccine which CAN kill you ).. It just seems like the risk is about 30-40x lower with the vaccine than with getting Covid directly (based on death stats) .. If I saw the evidence differently, I like to think i would call it differently

And again, condolences to @tenpoundbass for his mom, and especially if it was in fact the vaccine that took his mom's life. It sucks either way if it is the vaccine that gets a parent or the Covid infection, and I feel terrible for anyone either way..

porkchopexpress says

If you don't think you're body can handle it and think the risk of the vaccine will be less, go for it. Everything is a gamble right now.

Good quick synopsis of the situation. Go get the vaccine if you think you need it. If you don't, don't. Who cares. This fear shaming is getting ridiculous. If you get the poke, go for it. I won't shame anyone. I just don't plan on getting it. And if someone shits on me for not wanting it, expect the same in return or more.

Zak says

This thing could easily mutate to a form not covered with current vaccines.. and then it can get deadlier as well

As I've mentioned earlier, I believe natural immunity has less of a chance of causing a virus to mutate than a one-dimensional vaccine that only attacks the Spike protein. I'm not saying don't do the vaccine, but I believe only "at risk" people should do it and then we bolster health people's immune systems with therapeutics and supplementation to allow nature to fight the virus. Just my belief.

Zak says

If this was the case, we wouldn't have 500k oldsters dead

I strongly doubt that we have that many dead of this virus.

Remember that anyone who died with the virus was counted as a virus death, and that there was a large cash bonus ($30K?) to count them that way.

Well, I guess, more room for me and wifey, Bill Gates, and the Globalists.

porkchopexpress says

Bitcoin says

Why would you want Covid (just a question of when not if) and not the vaccine?

Because millions of people already had Covid and most got through it just fine and have natural immunity

So? I still rather have the vaccine. My uncle had Covid. He's in great shape (well, was!). Had no prior health issues before Covid. 6month after Covid he still deals with all kinds of health issues. Of course the entire covid thing was sensationalized and politized. I never believed its that bad either and I am not at risk. However, I dont believe the conspiracy that somehow the vaccine is intentionally made to make us sick. Those people that push that BS also believe in 9/11 being an inside job or that Bitcoin will go to 1.2k.

Zak says

Aids is just a virus too, right? What did it mutate from before it was AIDS?

Although you are right in that there is strong evidence that the initial viral load exposure seems to have an impact on the severity of a given infection due to the replication multiplier getting that many more times of the virus into your system for your immune cells to deal with... With mRNA.. yet another problem that doesn't exist....no replication...

AIDS is a good example, because to get it, you have to have it injected into your bloodstream like they are doing with this mRNA right now.

AIDS is injected with needles, or via a dick up your ass breaking blood vessels.

Maybe mRNA doesn't replicate, but who's to say that it won't cause immune problems or cancers like I have heard it did in lab animals?

I'm not sure that AIDS mutated in any significant way to infect people. It's originally a monkey virus if what I read was true. People may have gotten it by eating monkeys, or even fucking them.

@porkchopexpress
"Granted, I'm no scientist but wouldn't a strong natural immune system that is more comprehensive in its response to a virus provide less of a pathway to mutation than a very one-dimensional vaccine that makes it easier for a virus to mutate?"

In a word, no. That's why we get the flu still. That's why AIDS exists. Look what we did with Polio.. Now people are refusing polio vaccine, simply because they don't see first hand what polio actually did to people.

And also, some people blow this off as "oh it's just another flu". DUDE! The flu kills a LOT of people in just a regular year! We just kind of have it pushed to the back of our minds.

I also look at it like this... today, my immune system is fine... but what happens if I catch some stupid minor thing on my next surf trip to Panama, but THAT combined with Covid knocks me over.

But, if you really want to laugh at me.... I'll give you this.. I'm about 15 lbs overweight... heart disease is the #1 killer still.. I did NOT hit the treadmill this week (or watch my caloric intake all that well) :(

@patrick
"AIDS is injected with needles, or via a dick up your ass breaking blood vessels."

Again, for the 80% case... 20% of people still got it from a cheating spouse, a blood transfusion during an emergency, childbirth.. being born in Africa.....

And this one spreads just by being near someone... no dick in the ass needed.

And what's to say the literal VIRUS won't have side effects ?? We know for sure that some viruses CAUSE cancer (herpes)

Sure, there are many viruses and always have been.

But there has never before been a mass experiment on the public with non-FDA approved injection of foreign genetic material for profit.

What should we be more afraid of is the question.

If it were a proper vaccine (just fragments of protein) I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it.

That the CDC is in business with Moderna, a company it's supposed to be watching, is very much like the fox guarding the henhouse.

Bitcoin says

Those people that push that BS also believe in 9/11

It was an inside job lol

@patrick
"Remember that anyone who died with the virus was counted as a virus death, and that there was a large cash bonus ($30K?) to count them that way."

I don't even dispute this.. I'm 100% sure there was miscounting. But I'm also 100% sure that there are more deaths than "normal" and that Covid killed a lot of people.

porkchopexpress says

Bitcoin says

Those people that push that BS also believe in 9/11

It was an inside job lol

Yeah sure! and nothing ever leaked, nobody ever blew the whistle. How many people do you think were involved in this conspiracy?

@Zak You should just be able to select text and click "quote" above the comment to quote it.

Doesn't work right on cellphones, I know. Going to work on that.

@patrick
" non-FDA approved injection "

I don't actually give too much of a shit about those wankers in this case... They've been getting in the way of far too many treatments (especially for cancer like my mom had) for FAAARRR too long, and its refreshing they had to get the fuck out of the way on this one.. at least to some extent.

I want the right people in the way.

But I suspect a kind of mafia is now running the CDC and maybe even the FDA. People who are abusing their office for profit.

Patrick says

Sure, there are many viruses and always have been.

But there has never before been a mass experiment on the public with non-FDA approved injection of foreign genetic material for profit.

What should we be more afraid of is the question.

If it were a proper vaccine (just fragments of protein) I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it.

Exactly. We’re not anti vaxx, just anti experimental vaxx.

Zak says

In a word, no. That's why we get the flu still. That's why AIDS exists. Look what we did with Polio.. Now people are refusing polio vaccine, simply because they don't see first hand what polio actually did to people.

Apples and oranges. Different kinds of viruses.

Zak says

@mell
"Also the antibodies produced against the spike protein deteriorate quickly"

I appreciate that you're looking at the data and actual information around this. I'm glad we can actually have refreshing and engaging conversations on topics like this, and get different viewpoints where people are "constructively arguing". It's one of the things I love about patnet ...

On this particular point you are correct. The same thing happens though with normal viral antibodies, or "normal vaccine" antibodies. The antibodies themselves deteriorate, but memory T cells seem to encode the antibody encoding for long term defense. Initial results seem to be promising that the mRNA sourced antibody response shares this property.

But you're 100% right, and there isn't yet long term efficacy data.. so I appreciate what you are saying is a possibility...

I'm not ruling out taking a more traditional vaccine at some point, but to me currently it's the same decision as whether to take the flu vaccine or not, with the flu vaccine being much safer and longer tested. I have never taken the flu vaccine either and that may change as we all age, and I think there's likely a group that on average benefits from the Covid vaccine which is currently very narrowly defined for me. People with comorbidities and people around retirement age that have some risks as they may have their golden years ahead and don't want to cut them short. I don't see the point in vaccinating anybody under 50 without comorbidities, esp. children, except for healthcare/frontline/nursing home workers, and anybody at very old age. So maybe somewhere between 10%-30% of the population. But it seems paramount to me to defeat this via natural herd immunity first and foremost as it will almost guaranteed become endemic and linger.

mell says

But it seems paramount to me to defeat this via natural herd immunity first and foremost as it will almost guaranteed become endemic and linger.

You can't make money doing that though. It's coming to an end in my opinion, hopefully around June. Masks are here to stay in urban areas unfortunately. Vaccines are here to stay. It will mostly go back to normal though I think.

Mission was accomplished. Got the puppet in and Trump out.

@porkchopexpress
" but I believe only "at risk" people should do it and then we bolster health people's immune systems with therapeutics and supplementation to allow nature to fight the virus. Just my belief."

I get that... I would think this was a fine safe approach if we didn't have a vaccine. Vaccine numbers are showing approximately 1/40th the death rate (I don't know the breakdown by risk group). Functionally, they prevent billions of DNA virus replications and possibilties for viral mutation... If the R value were lower, then I wouldn't care about this either. But since it does spread so fast, so easily, the ability to mutate and outpace us medically seems to be a good reason to try to curtail the simple natural spread through the population model.

It's not that I don't think your way will keep us mostly safe/in good health... (and that we can end/alter the lockdown nonsense for only the risky) . And I think it is good that people are cautious about the actual vaccine, what it is, how it works, and that it potentially can have side effects. Again, i'm just seeing about 1/40th the risk of natural w/covid vs get the vaccine, with 1000% less "maintenance of lifestyle" to get that protection. That's why it seems like everyone should get it, and we can quash this thing before we have to deal with yearly mutations that each need their own vaccine... (Which will probably happen anyway in several years ) . But I'm not shouting at people that they are idiots if they disagree... I think a lot of people here have valid concerns. I'm just trying to do my part of what I think might help people see what might be a "better way". But I'm trying to do that based on what I think are facts and "unspun" statistics, and putting those facts up for other people to knock down if my thinking looks like it is bullshit and wrong.

Fair enough, Zak

WookieMan says

mell says

But it seems paramount to me to defeat this via natural herd immunity first and foremost as it will almost guaranteed become endemic and linger.

You can't make money doing that though. It's coming to an end in my opinion, hopefully around June. Masks are here to stay in urban areas unfortunately. Vaccines are here to stay. It will mostly go back to normal though I think.

Mission was accomplished. Got the puppet in and Trump out.

Right also even 30% vaccination rate which we already pretty much achieved coupled with a 40% exposure rate (of course with overlap) and natural immunity from prior CV infections should get us already pretty close to the lower mark of 60% for herd immunity. Hence my guess it will go endemic, esp. with mutations against which prior natural exposure with T cell response will provide a better protection than mere antibodies, so I don't see it going full pandemic again, or at least the risk will be equal to the risk of a flu pandemic if not less. So my suspicion is also it will be over by early to mid summer.

But if they keep successfully pushing antibody measurements as a gauge of when to reload on the vaccine they will make a boatload of money and the most hard-core followers will be in for yearly if not semi-yearly Covid shots which is insane imo, esp. given the number of successful therapies by now. But to each their own.

@wookieman
"This fear shaming is getting ridiculous"

I agree with you on this.. Like I said.. if I was a conspiracy theorist, I would say that socialists/marxists couldn't create a better climate to have their opposition act against their own interest to not get vaccinated.

- make thousands of ridiculous statements to the point that all reasonable people object and rebel against everything you do (collect the underpants)
- make 1 statement against the lifesaving interest of your opponent (they figured out the - ???)
- watch your opponent act against their self-interest and die (profit)