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Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or fueling a car with gas?


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2021 Oct 23, 11:41am   25,704 views  211 comments

by RWSGFY   ➕follow (4)   💰tip   ignore  


Last year, Patrick Anderson went electric: He got a Porsche Taycan EV in dark blue.
Anderson, who is CEO of East Lansing-based economic consulting firm Anderson Economic Group, loves the zippy acceleration and "exciting" features the car offers. He also gets satisfaction in knowing that driving an EV benefits the environment, he said. 

But Anderson's joy comes with a dark side.
"They are a wonderful driving experience. But at the same time, they're an enormous burden in time and in energy in finding chargers and getting them charged," Anderson said. "And you’re not really saving much in terms of charging costs ... you may be paying more.”

Costs to drive an EV compared with a gasoline car are detailed in a report Anderson Economic released Thursday called "Comparison: Real World Cost of Fueling EVs and ICE Vehicles."
The study has four major findings:
There are four additional costs to powering EVs beyond electricity: cost of a home charger, commercial charging, the EV tax and "deadhead" miles.
For now, EVs cost more to power than gasoline costs to fuel an internal combustion car that gets reasonable gas mileage. 
Charging costs vary more widely than gasoline prices. 
There are significant time costs to finding reliable public chargers – even then a charger could take 30 minutes to go from 20% to an 80% charge.

Anderson has worked with the auto industry for 20 years and given the industry's transition to EVs, the group decided to do the studies to assess the likelihood consumer will adopt the cars.

...

"Part of the strength of the analysis is we’re showing the real-world costs that EV drivers face," Anderson said. "You typically have to go to a commercial charger and commercial charger rates are two, three or four times that of residential charger rates."

Then, there are the "deadhead miles" car owners spend driving around trying to find a commercial charger. Even charging at home on a Level 1 or Level 2 charger is time consuming and expensive. 

...

Anderson's report considers four costs beyond the cost of residential electricity when calculating how much it costs to drive an EV: 

- Cost of the residential charger
- Cost of commercial electricity
- An annual EV tax
- Deadhead miles to get to a fast charger

Given all of that, the conclusion is EVs cost more to "fuel" than gasoline cars that get reasonable gas mileage, Anderson said. It all depends on how the car is used and how much commercial charging is involved. 

A mid-priced internal combustion car that gets 33 miles per gallon would cost $8.58 in overall costs to drive 100 miles at $2.81 a gallon, the study found. But a mid-priced EV, such as Chevrolet Bolt, Nissan Leaf or a Tesla Model 3, would cost $12.95 to drive 100 miles in terms of costs that include recharging the vehicle using mostly a commercial charger.
On a yearly basis, assuming the mid-priced cars traveled 12,000 miles, it would cost  $1,030 to drive an internal combustion car and $1,554 to drive an EV. 
For luxury cars that get 26 miles per gallon and use premium gas at $3.25 a gallon, the cost to drive an internal combustion car 100 miles is $12.60. The cost to drive a luxury EV, such as a Taycan, Tesla Model S or X or Jaguar I-Pace, is $15.52 to travel 100 miles. That is using mostly commercial chargers. 
“That’s apples to apples and includes the extra EV taxes, the commercial charging and the home charging and the allowance of driving to a gas station, which, for most Americans, is very short compared to driving to a commercial charger for an EV owner," Anderson said.

The study differs from some reports that show it's cheaper to drive an EV than a conventional car. For example, a 2018 study from the University of Michigan's Transportation Research Institute found the average cost to operate an EV in the U.S. was $485 per year compared with a gasoline-powered vehicle at $1,117. Anderson said most studies include only the cost of residential electricity and don't factor in the four other costs that this study does.

...

Charging costs vary much more for EVs than gasoline prices, too, by 100% or more from month-to-month or week-to-week, Anderson said. 
"Even if you drive to the most expensive gas station, your varying price won’t be as great as that," he said.

“That’s going to be a big surprise to a lot of drivers," Anderson said, adding that many commercial chargers will also require the EV driver to enroll and sometimes pay a $20 fee, but that might be reimbursed with charging.
Also, don't plan on ever having a 100% charge on your EV, he said. 
"It’s very difficult to charge it up to 100%," Anderson said. "The chargers slow down and the manufacturers warn you not to do it because there is additional burden on the battery system when you get your vehicle above a 90% charge.”

That means if the vehicle advertises a range of 240 miles on a full charge, a driver in reality will get considerably less on, say, an 80% charge, he said.
For new EV drivers these costs, time constraints and other considerations are often a surprise, Anderson said.
“Unlike their reliable gas cars that have 300 or 400 miles of range that can be filled up at a number of gas stations in our country, you have to think about what available chargers you have and plan it out," Anderson said. "It’s more than range anxiety, it’s a burden of constantly monitoring the charging status.”
The Anderson report lists about two dozen sources in its research, which relied on consumer experiences and costs for drivers that go beyond government data on fuel economy and electricity prices. Anderson said it did stopwatch measurements of the time required to refuel gasoline cars and EVs, recorded customer experiences on reliability of chargers, charging time and costs. It used consumer reports from actual EV drivers, including those posted on forums for Taycan and Tesla drivers, Reddit and applications serving EV drivers such as PlugShare and ChargePoint.


https://apple.news/AAlPx0L7ZRPikqoXmgfQntg

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2   fdhfoiehfeoi   2021 Oct 23, 12:09pm  

Your converting energy before using it(in almost every case), always a net loss. Also, and this is rarely thought about, electricity is fully controlled and monopolized, way more than oil could ever be. If you eliminate gas vehicles, you centralize even more authority under a single entity, always a recipe for disaster and totalitarianism.
3   Patrick   2022 Mar 22, 5:36pm  

https://nitter.pussthecat.org/Not_the_Bee/status/1505679545965314054?source=patrick.net


Ben Bergman
@thebenbergman
Mar 20
The very rare time as a Tesla owner I wish I could pay $6/gallon for gas and be on my way. We need more super chargers


Lines at the Tesla charging station!

It's not just how much it costs, it's how long you have to wait to fill up.
4   B.A.C.A.H.   2022 Mar 22, 5:41pm  

Patrick says
It's not just how much it costs

Yes it is.

It's always about how much it costs to have a Status Symbol.
5   Eman   2022 Mar 22, 9:21pm  

Here’s the cost to operate my Tesla 2017 Model S. I shared these numbers with my friends last week. The drop off in usage in 2020 was due to SIP so less driving. The drop off in usage in 2021 was due to charging for free a little more often.

For people who wait in-line to charge, they don’t value their time, and it’s definitely a loss the moment they do that. We still take our gas car for trips to SoCal. Screw free supercharging. Our time is more valuable than waiting in-line and save a few bucks.

6   joshuatrio   2022 Mar 23, 12:30pm  

Yeah my electric bill hasn't even budged since charging my Prius prime daily. I rarely ever burn fuel now.

Next vehicle is full electric. So much quieter and smoother than ICE cars.
7   Eman   2022 Mar 23, 1:54pm  

joshuatrio says
Yeah my electric bill hasn't even budged since charging my Prius prime daily. I rarely ever burn fuel now.

Next vehicle is full electric. So much quieter and smoother than ICE cars.


Personally, I think hybrid makes the most sense. Otherwise, we should be able to stack batteries for longer road trips. To carry 300-mile range worth of battery while only operate 30-50 miles each day is carrying a lot of dead weight.
8   Eman   2022 Mar 23, 1:57pm  

I’m not going back to ICE although I still look at Corvette occasionally. I still have the love for it.

9   Eman   2022 Mar 23, 2:00pm  

However, I have a feeling I’ll likely get a Roadster in a few years to show the kids in the family that it’s possible if they dare to dream.



10   WookieMan   2022 Mar 23, 2:01pm  

joshuatrio says
Yeah my electric bill hasn't even budged since charging my Prius prime daily. I rarely ever burn fuel now.

Next vehicle is full electric. So much quieter and smoother than ICE cars.

The drive of EV's is amazing. Ultimately they're not cheaper. 1,000%. It's negligible on paper, but it's not some massive savings if at all. Literally one of my top 5 friends is a Toyota engineer that I've mentioned before. He's not selling to me and doesn't care. EV's are not cheaper overall. It's math and I trust his word. EV's are not cheaper (yet).

Electric costs money and the car costs more. Higher interest rate with higher purchase price. Ultimately everyone knows their margins as a business. I can promise you a Nissan Versa is substantially more efficient than a Tesla (I like them). This really is indisputable.

I'm a point A to B guy. Move me to where I need to go. I don't need status or the feel good of an EV. It's not cheaper. I don't hate people that get them. As with everything in life it's a decision. Unless you harm my family you're generally good by me.
11   socal2   2022 Mar 23, 2:35pm  

It costs me about $8.00 to fill up my Model Y when I charge at home during off peak.

If you compare my Tesla to a comparable high-end sedan or SUV (BWM, Mercedes, Volvo etc.) I am pretty sure it costs me less to own and operate.

If you compare my Tesla to a mid-range car like a Honda or Toyota, it is probably about even considering the price of gas in California.

I picked up my new boss from the airport yesterday and the Tesla blew him away. He drives a Porsche Boxster and placed an order for a Model 3 last night.
12   B.A.C.A.H.   2022 Mar 23, 2:55pm  

WookieMan says
I'm a point A to B guy. Move me to where I need to go. I don't need status or the feel good of an EV. It's not cheaper. I don't hate people that get them. As with everything in life it's a decision. Unless you harm my family you're generally good by me.


It's because you're not trying to prove something to others, about how much smarter you are than them, or how much more you can afford to drive a Status Symbol than they can.

Some folks are a bit disingenuous about how cheap it is to charge their EV, at least those who buy their electricity from PG&E (Bay Area). I own a plug-in hybrid so I was keenly interested in saving money by charging it at home. It's true, some folks have boasted on Patrick's blog, those kwatt-hrs are (relatively) cheaper than kwhr for appliances and lighting. But in order to get that rate, I would have to agree to pay HIGHER rates for non-EV charging electrons. Much higher. They leave that part out of their discussion.
13   EBGuy   2022 Mar 23, 3:07pm  

RWSGFY says
- Cost of commercial electricity


Lets be clear, the report is mainly about the high cost of commercial charging. Many folks with EVs use them for local trips and charge at home. As the saying goes, YMMV...
While the ChargePoint network allows the property owner where the charger is situated to set rates, Blink charges between $0.04-$0.06 per minute or from $0.39 to $0.79 per kWh, in states where that’s permitted.
Chevrolet says its Bolt EV will get back an average 25 miles of operating range per hour of Level 2 charging. That’s a cost of between $2.40 and $3.60 at the above rates, compared to the EPA’s estimate of $2.15 to drive a gas-powered Chevrolet Cruze for 25 miles.

From https://www.myev.com/research/ev-101/what-it-costs-to-charge-an-electric-vehicle?source=patrick.net
14   BoomAndBustCycle   2022 Mar 23, 3:08pm  

Driving a plug in hybrid with a large 40-50 mile battery is probably the cheapest option if you have a short commute. But not many of those exist anymore.
15   Eric Holder   2022 Mar 23, 3:24pm  

BoomAndBustCycle says
Driving a plug in hybrid with a large 40-50 mile battery is probably the cheapest option if you have a short commute. But not many of those exist anymore.


Short commutes? Yeah, most of commutes - both short and long - have turned into non-existent commutes, bwahahahaha.
16   Eman   2022 Mar 23, 3:25pm  

Not sure why some people keep referring to Tesla as a status symbol. Would this make driving a Porsche, MBZ, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Infinity, Cadillac, etc….a status symbol?

It’s simply a car for enjoyment, or to get one from point A to point B. Is making $500k/year a status symbol compared to someone making $100k/year? Is living in a $3M vs a $1M home a status symbol?

Each person enjoys different thing. If one can afford it without breaking the bank, why not? Can’t take anything with us when we’re gone so why not buy something we like, eat what we like, and live in a home we like if we can afford them?
17   Eric Holder   2022 Mar 23, 3:25pm  

Eman says
I’m not going back to ICE although I still look at Corvette occasionally. I still have the love for it.



Meh, a sprotscar w/o manual trasmission is ghey.
18   EBGuy   2022 Mar 23, 3:26pm  

B.A.C.A.H. says
But in order to get that rate, I would have to agree to pay HIGHER rates for non-EV charging electronics. Much higher.

I usually have a seizure whenever I look into the alternative rate schedules. Just playing around with my "heat pump in box" this winter I got bumped up into the next tier above baseline on my vanilla E1 schedule.
So here's the EV2A rate schedule from PG&E (to show that BACAH ain't kidding)...


19   Eric Holder   2022 Mar 23, 3:27pm  

socal2 says
It costs me about $8.00 to fill up my Model Y when I charge at home during off peak.

If you compare my Tesla to a comparable high-end sedan or SUV (BWM, Mercedes, Volvo etc.) I am pretty sure it costs me less to own and operate.


I'm pretty sure you did not read the article.
20   socal2   2022 Mar 24, 8:57am  

Eric Holder says
I'm pretty sure you did not read the article.


I did read it. I leased a Chevy Bolt for the last 3 years before getting a Tesla and am well aware of "MY" driving requirements.

I am able to charge at home 98% of the time at very cheap electricity rates. Over 90% of my driving is less than 50 miles a day so I almost never use superchargers. I take maybe 2 roadtrips a year.

Since my Tesla (which I got before all of the price increases and no incentives) is equal to even a little bit less than an equivalent BMW - I am still saving nearly $200 a month in fuel and no oil changes.
21   Eric Holder   2022 Mar 24, 9:00am  

socal2 says
Eric Holder says
I'm pretty sure you did not read the article.


I did read it. I leased a Chevy Bolt for the last 3 years before getting a Tesla and am well aware of "MY" driving requirements.

I am able to charge at home 98% of the time at very cheap electricity rates. Over 90% of my driving is less than 50 miles a day so I almost never use superchargers. I take maybe 2 roadtrips a year.

Since my Tesla (which I got before all of the price increases and no incentives) is equal to even a little bit less than an equivalent BMW - I am still saving nearly $200 a month in fuel and no oil changes.


Then you should know that he did address your corner case there.
22   socal2   2022 Mar 24, 10:49am  

Eric Holder says
Then you should know that he did address your corner case there.


I don't think it is a corner case.

Anecdotal only, but every EV driver I know in California relies almost exclusively on home charging and only use the Super Chargers for the occasional road trip.

I would not recommend an EV (at current prices) if the person has to rely on public charging and couldn't charge at home.
23   WookieMan   2022 Mar 24, 11:15am  

Eman says
Not sure why some people keep referring to Tesla as a status symbol.

It is. So are the other models you mention. I simply don't give a shit though. I'm unique in that I give zero shits about gas prices as I don't have to. The higher they are the more my family makes. If someone likes $50-100k cars cool. I have two sitting in the driveway with a 4-Runner and Armada and the 3rd is a $10k Nissan Versa from 2009.

My take is that it's not more efficient or cheaper long term. The only savings is oil changes (air filter, oil and oil filter). And that's 4 times a year for 90% of people if you're going by 3 months.

Function is and always will be the hurdle for EV's for me. I don't see anything in the near future that can 100% charge in 5 minutes or less, drive 300-400 miles, tow up to 10k lbs that's the size of an Armada or Sequoia. I don't want a pickup truck with 3 kids. I'm in the demo that can't and will likely never buy one until the kids move out. We also just like bigger cars for safety. I know it's different in CA, but that's the demo in flyover country outside of cities.

Fact is we cannot rely on electric either. Fuel can be stored to an extent if there was an attack on the country. If we went mostly EV we'd be fucked. I can't rely on the electric grid as someone that loses electric for hours 4-5 times a year.
24   komputodo   2022 May 11, 6:43pm  

RWSGFY says
He also gets satisfaction in knowing that driving an EV benefits the environment, he said. 

So it sounds like his main thing is the virtue signaling points no matter how misguided they are...Nothing new here.
25   komputodo   2022 May 11, 6:44pm  

Eman says
Not sure why some people keep referring to Tesla as a status symbol.

Virtue signaling points
26   RWSGFY   2022 May 11, 7:59pm  

Eman says

Not sure why some people keep referring to Tesla as a status symbol. Would this make driving a Porsche, MBZ, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Infinity, Cadillac, etc….a status symbol?


Duh.
28   Onvacation   2022 Jul 9, 9:41pm  

There were no electric vehicles in Mad Max.
29   Onvacation   2022 Jul 9, 9:49pm  

Eman says

Would this make driving a Porsche, MBZ, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Infinity, Cadillac, etc….a status symbol?

Yes.
Eman says

Is making $500k/year a status symbol compared to someone making $100k/year?

Yes.
Eman says

Is living in a $3M vs a $1M home a status symbol?

Yes.
30   The_Deplorable   2022 Jul 10, 1:16am  

There is one additional major cost for operating an electric vehicle: The cost of replacing the Lithium battery every 8 years.

In the news recently, a guy from Finland destroyed his electric vehicle after he learned he needed to spend $23,000 to replace the battery. Therefore, if you need $23,000 every 8 years to replace the battery then your annual cost for operating the electric vehicle is $2,875 - a very significant cost!

The_Deplorable
31   Eman   2022 Jul 10, 9:04am  

Onvacation says

Eman says


Would this make driving a Porsche, MBZ, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Infinity, Cadillac, etc….a status symbol?

Yes.
Eman says


Is making $500k/year a status symbol compared to someone making $100k/year?

Yes.
Eman says


Is living in a $3M vs a $1M home a status symbol?

Yes.


Listen to this surgeon. Why does he need two Lamborghinis? It’s the mindset. Success breeds success. It gives people the drive, the motivation, something to look forward to everyday unlike waking up and going to a W2 job. They don’t drive it to impress anyone while others think otherwise.

https://youtu.be/lHocJAPJNGI
32   Eman   2022 Jul 10, 9:09am  

The_Deplorable says

There is one additional major cost for operating an electric vehicle: The cost of replacing the Lithium battery every 8 years.

In the news recently, a guy from Finland destroyed his electric vehicle after he learned he needed to spend $23,000 to replace the battery. Therefore, if you need $23,000 every 8 years to replace the battery then your annual cost for operating the electric vehicle is $2,875 - a very significant cost!

The_Deplorable


This is definitely the downside of owning an EV, thus, plan to fully depreciate the car in 8 years, or better yet 5 years, once the business tax deduction runs out. Better yet, buy a Tesla model X and depreciate it using the IRS Section 179. What a loophole.

By the way, replacing a Tesla battery doesn’t cost $23k. It’s less but still expensive. Just google and find out.
33   Eman   2022 Jul 10, 9:21am  

WookieMan says

Eman says
Not sure why some people keep referring to Tesla as a status symbol.

It is. So are the other models you mention. I simply don't give a shit though. I'm unique in that I give zero shits about gas prices as I don't have to. The higher they are the more my family makes.


Hey, don’t talk like that. Someone will call it “in-your-face smug. 🤭”

Your situation definitely doesn’t make sense to own EV’s.

With respect to Tesla as a status symbol, it doesn’t feel like it here in the Bay Area because they’re everywhere. It’s within reach for most average household income family here.

If you drive a Lamborghini or a Ferrari, then maybe yes, but folks, who drive these cars, drive them for a different reason. It’s a business expense. They want to experience life. These cars put a smile on their face and give them the drive to do better everyday. They don’t give a F about what others think while others think they show off. People don’t understand until they’re on the other side and look back.

My real estate mentee who drives a $335k Ferrari. It’s being paid for by his business. It’s a tax deduction. When the car is worth one month of your earnings, it doesn’t matter. He doesn’t drive it to show off to anyone. He’s experiencing life.

https://youtu.be/whYl5iM0wnI
35   GNL   2022 Aug 22, 12:10pm  

Patrick says







I'll eat my foot if that dark blue Ford gets 20mpg.
36   WookieMan   2022 Aug 22, 1:03pm  

GNL says

I'll eat my foot if that dark blue Ford gets 20mpg.

I get 12-16 depending if I'm towing with a Nissan Armada.

I don't care. The utility is amazing. It fits a bunch of kids and luggage without the trailer. With the trailer I can really do anything. Hell if I wanted to deck it out I've seen Armadas that do off roading stuff decently. Can't do much of that in IL though.

Either way, until a EV can do the stuff I mention, maybe I'd look into it. I'd rather get an Armada, Sequoia, Suburban or similar. I'll get the EV when the kids move out and the tech is even better. And keep a truck/large SUV for labor type activities.
37   Eric Holder   2022 Aug 22, 1:04pm  

GNL says


Patrick says






I'll eat my foot if that dark blue Ford gets 20mpg.



+1

Maybe going down a stretch of extremely flat freeway at 55 mpg. MAYBE. But realistically it should be something like a typical gas truck of that size (and on that kind of tires): 13-14 mpg in mixed driving.

Funny thing: he didn't have to exaggerate to make his point - it still true even at 14 mpg.
38   clambo   2022 Aug 23, 7:17am  

Most Teslas in California are running on natural gas burned at a power station somewhere.
In Northern California it's in Moss Landing.

Instead of pushing for battery cars, they should have encouraged natural gas cars.
The C02 coming out the back of a car can be recycled by the plants, trees, and phytoplankton on earth.
The batteriers of a Tesla can be recycled where and how? They're electronic toxic waste.

I would buy an electric car someday when I am really a geezer who won't drive long distances, nor about Baja back roads, etc.
39   rocketjoe79   2022 Aug 23, 8:58pm  

clambo says

Most Teslas in California are running on natural gas burned at a power station somewhere.
In Northern California it's in Moss Landing.

Instead of pushing for battery cars, they should have encouraged natural gas cars.
The C02 coming out the back of a car can be recycled by the plants, trees, and phytoplankton on earth.
The batteriers of a Tesla can be recycled where and how? They're electronic toxic waste.

I would buy an electric car someday when I am really a geezer who won't drive long distances, nor about Baja back roads, etc.

1) Natural Gas also requires processing, just like electricity.
2) Other stuff besides CO2 comes out of the exhaust of cars. One of the reasons you can't run your car with the garage door closed, as I can with my Tesla - such as when I want to cool the cabin before I drive. (Oh yes, I'm so wasteful!!)
3. Tesla Batteries are fully recyclable. This is already happening: https://www.tesla.com/support/sustainability-recycling
4. The Cybertruck can handle those back roads. But it must be a terrible Truck, there are only 1.5 million+ reservations already.

Bottom line, I pay about 1/3 the price of gas to run my Tesla. No Oil changes, no Engine maintenance (Fuel Filters, EGR valves, Timing Chains, Exhaust, Transmissions, etc.) No fluid filler caps under the hood at all except windshield washer goop. Very few brake pads or brake fluid replacements - regen braking.

Just take a test drive. You'll be impressed.
40   Patrick   2022 Aug 23, 9:01pm  

But don't you feel a bit worried that it's reporting everywhere you drive and could be commandeered to lock the doors and take you where you might not want to go?

Those parts creep me out.

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