patrick.net

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says

The situation turned out to be much more complex than had been predicted. The acidity of a lake is determined as much by the acidity of the local soil and vegetation

I'm talking about acidity of rainwater, which affects the microclimate of individual plants collectively but won't significantly change the long term pH of bodies of water due to dilution and buffering. Acid rain researchers and activists never claimed that acid rain was affecting the pH of bodies of water, that is a red herring dismissal of the entire topic. Sounds like you're just mashing up different claims, situations, and concerns as if they're one and the same.

HeadSet says

Automan Empire says

This may feel like a gotcha

I do not do "gotchas" here. I like the intellectual discussions with a knowledgeable crowd that includes various subjects and interests.

If your discourse was consistently as you claimed, you would have responded to the content of my original claim and rebuttal to you, not the form of it. Nobody is claiming higher atmospheric CO2 levels will NOT increase plant growth in the absence of other localized nutrient constraints, and to my knowledge this has claim NEVER been made in any discussion or prediction of the effects of rising atmospheric CO2 concentration.

Automan Empire says

Nobody is claiming higher atmospheric CO2 levels will NOT increase plant growth in the absence of other localized nutrient constraints, and to my knowledge this has claim NEVER been made in any discussion or prediction of the effects of rising atmospheric CO2 concentration.

Oh, I've heard this. The forests were burning down last year on the West Coast because of global warming and large areas of the Earth was going to return to desert. Famines were going to happen as a result of global warming, I've been hearing that since I was a kid.

I spent a few minutes the other day trying to get images of what South America looked like over the years, but I gave up. If http://maps.google.com is accurate (?) the amount of jungle in South America is in 2007 is identical to what it is today.

I've heard so much BS about global warming, so many lies, how can I believe anything they say at all? The arctic was actually reported as being ice free one year. They actually printed that in national papers. It was completely false.

Automan Empire says

I'm talking about acidity of rainwater, which affects the microclimate of individual plants collectively but won't significantly change the long term pH of bodies of water due to dilution and buffering. Acid rain researchers and activists never claimed that acid rain was affecting the pH of bodies of water, that is a red herring dismissal of the entire topic. Sounds like you're just mashing up different claims, situations, and concerns as if they're one and the same.

The purpose of the Acid Rain panic was to privilege Nat Gas over Coal. There was never any Precipitation driven acidification of mountain water, which was the metric by which they measured acid rain to begin with and how it got to be a concern in the first place; that acid rain in isolated mountain water bodies were killing fish.

Instead, it was the soil chemistry caused by protecting mountain lake areas "Area of Natural Beauty" from harvesting.

Geological evidence confirmed that Pre-European (much less pre-industrial) mountain lakes in North America were more acidic with smaller fish populations than today.

richwicks says

Automan Empire says

Nobody is claiming higher atmospheric CO2 levels will NOT increase plant growth in the absence of other localized nutrient constraints, and to my knowledge this has claim NEVER been made in any discussion or prediction of the effects of rising atmospheric CO2 concentration.

Oh, I've heard this. The forests were burning down last year on the West Coast because of global warming and large areas of the Earth was going to return to desert. Famines were going to happen as a result of global warming, I've been hearing that since I was a kid.

Yeah, well I've been hearing skeptics take a gunny sack of completely independent claims about climate change, mash them together in nonsense ways, and conclude that "climate change is fake and proponents crazy/stupid" for decades. I expected much better than that from you in this thread.

Man, if there's on phrase that is total bullshit

"The Science says..."

or the alternative version:

"not according to the Science."

There is no such thing as "The Science". Science is a process, that depends on Free Debate, Falsification, Criticism, and repeated observations and testing.

100 years ago, if today's standards applied, you'd be told it was "The Science" that Continental Drift/Plate Tectonics were just Human Beings seeing Patterns in Nature as usual, just like People can see Mickey Mouse in a Cloud. Although the fossil record and geological strata fit beautifully with the theory.

(This is a general rant, not aimed at any post on this thread or really, board)

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says

(This is a general rant, not aimed at any post on this thread or really, board)

That's pretty much the state of this discussion thread, which is a breakout from a different topic thread and seems to be unmoored and drifting from the topic down some unproductive side tracks after 100 posts.

Automan Empire says

That's pretty much the state of this discussion thread, which is a breakout from a different topic thread and seems to be unmoored and drifting from the topic down some unproductive side tracks after 100 posts.

That's kind of all forums. Is that a problem? Unless you want a heavily moderated forum, this is what you get. Topics ebb and flow. Not all conversation is unproductive, that's an opinion on your part.

Automan Empire says

Oh, I've heard this. The forests were burning down last year on the West Coast because of global warming and large areas of the Earth was going to return to desert. Famines were going to happen as a result of global warming, I've been hearing that since I was a kid.

Yeah, well I've been hearing skeptics take a gunny sack of completely independent claims about climate change, mash them together in nonsense ways, and conclude that "climate change is fake and proponents crazy/stupid" for decades. I expected much better than that from you in this thread.

15 years ago I'd be in complete agreement with you. Seriously.

I remember thinking "they can't be possibly lying about this, because if they are, they have entirely destroyed their credibility and will have a full track record of themselves being wrong repeatedly. They can't be that stupid!"

* They did this with weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. I actually expected the US to plant MOBILE weapons labs, after all that's why they were claiming they were MOBILE, that's easy to fake..
* They did this with "Qaddafi was about to cause a humanitarian crisis" in Libya.
* They did this with Climate Change.

After all, a huge well founded organizations couldn't be so reckless could they? But they have been.

I remember LAUGHING and denigrating people that questioned the climate change story. They didn't understand science, they would bring up stories like Egyptians thought their arrows being shot through the air effected the weather, and other nonsense - comparing those primitive civilizations to ours and probably wasn't even true. Religious charlatans like televangelists railed against it. Well, if those MORONS were on that side, and a bunch of scientists were on the other, who should I trust? I can't evaluate the data. I have to have some faith, and here's all these REALLY SPECIFIC predictions that if they get wrong will completely ruin their credibility if not CAREERS.

All the predictions were wrong. ALL of them.

You might complain that "the science about covid has been politicized" - well climate change sure as hell has been, at least 30 years ago.

I know it's hard to believe, but the dummies, the religious nuts, the fundies, the people that just think scientists have no clue what they are talking about - were right. Do you think I came to this conclusion easily? I used to argue with my parents about this, I couldn't believe how STUPID they were. A few years ago I was talking to them and admitted I was wrong - and their response was "you really believed that crap??" They had no clue I was being serious from previous conversations. They thought I considered it a possibility, not an absolute - and being the fucking nice assholes they are, they didn't pushback. I hate it when people do that shit. If you think I'm wrong, do me a favor and point it out, but if you're wrong, I'll reciprocate. For 20 years I believed the nonsense.

For almost half a century, we've been routinely promised global warming that will "result in Manhattan being THREE FEET under water by the end of the (90s, 00s, 10s, now 20s) if we don't take action now.

In the 70s, Brown Geologists wrote to the President demanding action on the coming Ice Age, expected to come within the next 40-50 years.

Some suggested Nixon not wait a moment, but load up 100s of C-130s with soot and ash byproducts of coal burning and industry, and spread them over the poles ASAP to lower the albedo of the Earth. As usual, it was Action Now! There is no Time to Lose Before the Crisis Hits! No more research, just DO IT NOW!

Thank goodness they were ignored, but contrary to AGW alarmist websites, talk of avoiding an ice age were routine items in Media in the 1960s and especially 1970s. It's consistently gaslighted away, even though it made covers of widely read weekly magazines and even the subject of entire network TV documentaries.

Except now we hear wide ranging plans, but along the opposite lines. Yet the very wealthy continue to buy oceanside property and banks are still writing mortgages on them and insurers still insuring those properties.

One reason I'm convinced it's all actors looking to manipulate markets - like SO2 and the proposed CO2 cap-and-trade desired by Enron - is that Nuclear Power is entirely off the table, and "The Science(tm)" keeps the general population ignorant about Nuclear Power not being limited to high pressure Steam-Powered Fast Reactors.

Much of the AGW is a game to facilitate third world outsourcing while kicking the ladder down in first world countries by imposing enviro laws; and a battle between Fossil Fuels.

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says

Much of the AGW is a game to facilitate third world outsourcing while kicking the ladder down in first world countries by imposing enviro laws

Bingo

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says

talk of avoiding an ice age were routine items in Media in the 1960s and especially 1970s.

All right, I give up. This was discussed in the thread already. You're not coming to the discussion well informed, and once here you're not following along with it.

Automan Empire says

All right, I give up. This was discussed in the thread already. You're not coming to the discussion well informed, and once here you're not following along with it.

Fine, let's get back to the matter at hand.

In fact, I will assist in this.

Global Warming Threads:
https://patrick.net/post/1328883/2019-12-03-let-s-get-a-globull-warming-update#comment-1766896
https://patrick.net/post/1342211/2021-11-01-resolutions-of-covid-global-summit
https://patrick.net/post/1341768/2021-10-08-this-just-in-for-the-leftoid-church-of-
Another big one that I can't find somewhere else.

Please keep this thread open for ORIGIN OF LIFE (OOL) Theories and Criticism.

Automan Empire says

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says

talk of avoiding an ice age were routine items in Media in the 1960s and especially 1970s.

All right, I give up. This was discussed in the thread already. You're not coming to the discussion well informed, and once here you're not following along with it.

I have what ought to be a pretty easy task for you.

Find a prediction made in a journal or a newspaper about the effects of "climate change" that turned out to be correct. If you say "hurricanes", I'll stop you. We see a lot more hurricanes since the late 1960's, because we have satellites - the number that hit landfall hasn't changed.

richwicks says

I have what ought to be a pretty easy task for you.

How do you intend to incentivize that?

It was a good origin of life discussion while it lasted.

Automan Empire says

It was a good origin of life discussion while it lasted.

If I join these threads I try to remind myself not to hijack the original poster's original post.

We can always make our own thread to spread our own dogma.