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Automan Empire says

Proponents of abiotic petrogenesis, are you aware of any specific oil deposits that can be conclusively proven to have formed only by abiotic processes?

Who cares? Honest question. What in the flying fuck are you or I going to do about any issue derived from oil consumption or it being renewed? At some point the human population will extinct itself. Enjoy life. Don't pollute if you can.

Being worried or thinking about something you'll never be able to control is not living. That's a miserable and slow death. I mean have you been to place like NOLA and witnessed humans? We're fucked either way. It will be thousands of years though. So why worry. Have fun.

WookieMan says

Being worried or thinking about something you'll never be able to control is not living. That's a miserable and slow death. (snip) It will be thousands of years though.

It's not about worrying about that which we can't control, it's about being correctly informed about the nature of the planet so humanity makes good choices whenever important decisions are made. Whether one believes oil is biotic or abiotic has HUGE implications on the ethics and sustainability of using petroleum reserves at unsustainable levels.

WookieMan says

So why worry. Have fun.

I'm not able to enjoy the level of fuck-you money at the top, what makes anyone think I'll aid and abet those who do by taking a bullshit devil-may-care attitude, thus effectively allowing it to expand and worsen? Oligarchs living in Jabba the Hutt level wealth and luxury at the pinnacle of the petrodollar fuckpile are condemning millions of future humans to lives of poverty and misery by blocking conservation and replacement technologies to keep the petroleum gravy train running to the polluted bitter end.

Are you comfortable holding known-incorrect facts in your worldview? Personally the cognitive dissonance exceeds the blue pill comfort of just saying F it and ignoring complex issues.

I'll tell you one weird thing about the Petroleum industry.

Exxon has an Ambassador in Paraguay, has for decades. But they claim there's no evidence of fossil fuels in the country.

Why bother spending millions influencing the 2nd poorest country in South America with no political influence to speak of, maintaining a huge mansion in the capital and lots of sponsorships to the tunes of millions USD/year?

Automan Empire says

Oligarchs living in Jabba the Hutt level wealth and luxury at the pinnacle of the petrodollar fuckpile are condemning millions of future humans to lives of poverty and misery by blocking conservation and replacement technologies to keep the petroleum gravy train running to the polluted bitter end.

Who cares? You're not going to stop the gravy train. That's my point. You're bringing up a topic you have no control over. None. If I controlled all the wealth and some peon came up to me I'd tell them to fuck off. Capitalism is the best system, but you cannot stop power, resources, land, etc.

If I hold land with a million barrels of oil, I'd kill anyone that tried to take that from me. Humans will go extinct. It's futile to try and prevent it. Hence why I say have fun. You were fortunate to be born, all of us. Enjoy the fuck out of it within reason. If oil runs out tomorrow, we deal. We did for centuries prior without it for the most part in the form of refined fuel.

WookieMan says

You're bringing up a topic you have no control over. None.

It figures YOU would promote the "Let the Wookie win." life strategy. Fact is, you DO have control, if you understand the facts instead of the fake worldview built up by carefully crafted propaganda. When almost an entire political party accepts on faith that oil forms abiotically and will never run out, it has HUGE effects on life today, for the rest of our natural lives, and for all generations of humans till the end of Earth's history. If you're not personally benefiting at fuck-the-world levels of wealth, why are you so willing to pretend facts aren't so to only benefit oligarchs while harming your own self-interests?

CaptainHorsePaste says

Why bother spending millions influencing the 2nd poorest country in South America with no political influence to speak of, maintaining a huge mansion in the capital and lots of sponsorships to the tunes of millions USD/year?

With no answer to the question, it's a non-sequitur to the topic, except to help make clearer the dollar amounts it's "worth" to oil oligarchs, to spin a false narrative and help keep the population believing a BS story about abiotic oil.

Automan Empire says

If you're not personally benefiting at fuck-the-world levels of wealth, why are you so willing to pretend facts aren't so to only benefit oligarchs while harming your own self-interests?

I guess maybe because I'm in oil? Biased? You don't have control. Never will. Trust me. You're fighting a losing battle. Oil is gonna oil. It runs out, we figure it out. Humans have lived thousands of years without oil and even basic tools we can pick up at HD for $10 now. This isn't political to me. We need and use oil. It's senseless to send it to the other guy so they make money. And mind you high oil prices make me more money. So maybe I'm not biased...

Here's the thing, science depends upon spending and right now, our society has its head up its collective ass.

Think about it, for months I've been fighting with ppl about vitamins/supplements, like Quercetin Phytosome. But no, instead they'd rather believe in Merck's latest $500+ carcinogenic treatment for Covid a/o the Jabs. If that's today's world then yes, humanity deserves to die.

What'll happen is that perhaps in time, someone will have the balls to put solar satellites up in space and microwave electricity to the surface. Since that's not really happening right now outside of some pet projects in Japan, etc, I've got better things to worry about.

Gold's abiotic theory is interesting.

Mars will be a tell on this: If we find hydrocarbons pooled underground there, big ding for biotic origin.

It will completely transform the world: One thing it will do is weaken the idea of AGW. Why? Turns out we're not burning "Dinosaur Bones" (actually ancient algae/plankton) in our cars (however, CO2 additions will still apply to the Carboniferous Era Dried Lignite in the form of coal)

To start the discussion, let's first have an understanding on what "petroleum" is. "Petroleum" is a mixture of multiple types of hydrocarbon compounds (chemical molecules that are almost entirely made up of hydrogen atoms and carbon atoms). The simplest form of hydrocarbon is CH4 (Methane) with 4 hydrogen atoms forming covalent bonds on four sides of the carbon atom. To help visualize: H-(H-C-H)-H, rotate the (H-C-H) in the middle 90 degrees to vertical, so the hydrogen atoms are on the 4 sides of the carbon. Now two H-(H-C-H)-H molecules can each lose an H atom and form into H-(H-C-H)-(H-C-H)-H with both (H-C-H) rotated to vertical and the two C atoms forming a covalent bond with each other. That is ethane. Another (H-C-H) vertically rotated segment can be inserted to form C3H8, with 3 carbons in the middle of the chain, 6 hydrogens (two to each carbon) next to the carbon atoms, and 2 (one each) at the head and the tail of the chain. When that carbon chain length extends to 8, it's Octane (i.e. the theoretical main content of gasoline). Hydrocarbon chains 6 to 12 carbon in length are usually liquid at room temperature and atmospherical pressure. The shorter chains would be gaseous under those normal earth surface conditions and the longer chains would be tar. Petroleum wells almost always produce both the gaseous components (shorter chains) and tar (longer chains) in addition to the liquid component that is of primary commercial value. Oil wells used to burn off the gaseous component right at the well head in order to prevent fire/explosion (and often still do, that's why we see that perpetual flame at the top of the well rigs).

The abiotic case is that carbonate rocks and water get subducted by plate tectonics and changed by the deep heat and pressure into petroleum spectrum molecules.

That is only the second part of the abiogenic theory of petrogenesis. The first part is: because the prevalence of both hydrogen and carbon in this part of the universe, hydrocarbon (from Methane CH4 to long hydrocarbon chains to solid carbon after all hydrogen atoms are stripped away by microbial action on earth or radiation in space) should be very common in this part of the universe, including inside the earth. This part is clearly demonstrated in the past half century with the discovery of not only carbonaceous meteorites but also other planets and their satellites having vast quantities of hydrocarbon (usually Methane CH4) in their atmosphere. The exclusively-biogenic theory would obviously be a joke when it comes to other planets and their satellites, not to mention meteorites passing through space having hydrocarbon.

This is often brought up by people holding cornucopian pro-petroleum positions, suggesting that because it's an abiotic process, oil is endlessly renewable.

Actually, the petroleum industry was very much against the abiogenic theory. They were the ones that invented the exclusively-biogenic theory in order to make what they had to sell sound precious. Remember, WWII was largely started by the fear of running out of oil.

Proponents never take the hypothesis further and detail processes, timelines, and specific deposits showing clear evidence of abiotic origin. Furthermore, they never seem to recognize that even if petrogenesis proves 100% abiotic and as described, it's STILL too slow of a process to provide limitless energy resources to humans for limitless time.

Does anyone want to tell us when dinosauers roamed the surface of the various satellites of other planets in the solar system? in order for them to have so much hydrocarbon in their atmosphere? What makes anyone think it is slow for limestone and water to turn into hydrocarbon under heat and high pressure? That process takes only hours if not minutes in labs and in industrial production. Elevated CO2 level in atmosphere would lead to higher CO2 level in sea water and limestones being laid down faster. BTW, the first half of the abiogenic theory stipulates that hydrocarbon make up a significant proportion of entire planetary/satellite bodies (earth is only one of them), like on the order of double-digit percentage of the entire mass: there are likely far more (H-C-H) carbon chain segment units than there are oxygen atoms to oxidize them all. Are you worried about solar energy is not limitless because the Sun will at some point in time run out of hydrogen for nuclear fusion?

The biotic case is that extant petroleum deposits consist of metamorphosed ancient biological deposits like algal mats in lakes. Much of the coal on earth was originally jungle land that existed before cellulose eating bacteria evolved, resulting in very long term in-situ accumulation of carbon.

Accessible oil shale deposits contain identifiable fossils and chemical signatures of biological processes. A particularly good example is the Messel Pit in Germany,

A fundamental flaw in biogenic theory is chirality: complex organic molecules have left-handedness vs. right-handedness (isomers). Almost all biological organic molecules are left-handed (where chirality is possible for the chemical isomer), whereas the overwhelming majority of petroleum isomers are statistically symmetric. Trace amount of biological molecules found in petroleum are likely due to contamination. Microbes feed on both Methane and other hydrocarbon chains (including petroleum), stripping away the hydrogen deriving their food/energy from the H-C bond, turning Methane into longer and longer chains, and eventually into coal after all hydrogen atoms are stripped away. That's why it is common to find oil at greater depth directly under coal mines, and natural gas (Methane) further down (the cracking industry has been carrying out their operations below old coal mine and oil well areas in Pennsylvania and Texas, exactly as Abiogenic theory predicted where they'd find natural gas). It's simply the Methane in the earth's mantel oozing up through rock crevices and being digested by microbes in the process to produce oil and then coal on top of that. That's why oil is usual found at specific depth (as deeper than that would be too hot for the microbes to survive, and too close to surface would have turned into tar or coal after microbes have done enough to it).

WookieMan says

I'm "in oil" as well, in that I earn my living repairing ICE powered vehicles. I've had a front row seat for literally decades watching the American car companies claiming improved emission controls and fuel economy standards would result in vehicles nobody would want and could never afford. The Japanese and Europeans meanwhile went about designing, building, and selling cars that met the requirements and still outsold their American competition in the free marketplace. Today, computerized engine management has reached a point of diminishing returns, where we have legit muscle cars that meet very low emissions thresholds, and the fleet of daily drivers that approaches PZEV or practically zero emissions besides CO2 and water.

My own Mother was a classic liberal my whole life growing up, but when she retired to a Boomer retirement community, she took the right wing radio blue pills till she was almost unrecognizable. This woman who hadn't worked to pay significant bills for the family since quitting her part time phone operator job back in 1970 was suddenly boldly telling the Thanksgiving table nonsense talking points, to the point I said in front of everyone, "Mom, you know fuck-all about petroleum production and distribution, why do you even have an opinion on the Keystone XL pipeline?" She was hurt and miffed in the moment, but on my next visit she actually admitted she had a convo with a retired petroleum engineer in the village, who confirmed everything I was telling her and rebutted every talking point she brought up.

Holding opinions on subjects like whether oil is biotic in origin don't exist in a hermetic vacuum where they only benefit, affect, or potentially harm the holder. FALSE opinions and incorrect knowlege get implanted, entrenched, and exploited by propaganda, and result in deliberately misinformed voting decisions and outcomes. These outcomes often work directly against the opinion holder and voter, while playing in to the interests of the oligarch class. More importantly, they end up negatively affecting even those of us who actually knew better, and tried to stop bad policies and decisions when we had the time and power to.

Reality says

To start the discussion, let's first have an understanding on what "petroleum" is. "Petroleum" is a mixture of multiple types of hydrocarbon compounds

You went to a lot of trouble to define petroleum in your first paragraph, then went on to mention carbon methane on non-Earth objects, but you didn't show petroleum elsewhere. Finding a Mars analogue of terrestrial petroleum deposits on the moon or mars would certainly shake up the notion of abiotic oil on earth... IF, IF it happens.

Reality says

Actually, the petroleum industry was very much against the abiogenic theory.

The industry is also simultaneously content for people TODAY to mass-believe in abiogenic oil as it plays to their advantage now. They need only passively STFU and let it propagate virally.Reality says

A fundamental flaw in biogenic theory is chirality: complex organic molecules have left-handedness vs. right-handedness (isomers). Almost all biological organic molecules are left-handed (where chirality is possible for the chemical isomer),

Reality says

A fundamental flaw in biogenic theory is chirality: complex organic molecules have left-handedness vs. right-handedness (isomers). Almost all biological organic molecules are left-handed

Correction: Almost all biological organic molecules OF EARTH LIFE use the D-isomer. This is incidentally the basis for "invert sugar" that tastes and cooks the same but is supposedly not absorbed. This is outside my wheelhouse a bit but my understanding is that life that uses the L-isomer is also possible, as is life based on silicon instead of carbon. I'm not convinced this isn't the outcome of an early chance occurance, like Microsoft dominating the early software market and setting standards adopted by distant later generations because they're now what occupies most of the ecosystem.

Reality says

That's why it is common to find oil at greater depth directly under coal mines, and natural gas (Methane) further down.

Can you think of ANY OTHER REASON besides abiogenesis processes deeper down, that might cause liquid oil to be found beneath solid coal deposits, or for methane to find its way into deeper fissures and back out again later?

CaptainHorsePaste says

I'll tell you one weird thing about the Petroleum industry.

Exxon has an Ambassador in Paraguay, has for decades. But they claim there's no evidence of fossil fuels in the country.

Why bother spending millions influencing the 2nd poorest country in South America with no political influence to speak of, maintaining a huge mansion in the capital and lots of sponsorships to the tunes of millions USD/year?

@CaptainHorsePaste That's interesting. So what's the answer?

Automan Empire says

You went to a lot of trouble to define petroleum in your first paragraph, then went on to mention carbon methane on non-Earth objects, but you didn't show petroleum elsewhere. Finding a Mars analogue of terrestrial petroleum deposits on the moon or mars would certainly shake up the notion of abiotic oil on earth... IF, IF it happens.

Reading the chemistry illustrated in my last post would have gone a long way towards answering your question. My post already explained petroleum (mostly hydrocarbon chain length between 6 to 12 carbon in length) is derived from Methane (through microbial action stripping away hydrogen atoms making longer and longer carbon chains; i.e. microbes are consumers of the primordial fuel by concatenating shorter carbon chains into longer chains; CH4 is a "carbon chain" of 1-carbon/link). The past 20+ years of cracking in the US (mostly in zones below old Pennsynvania and Texas oil wells and coal mines) already proved the point by digging up mostly natural gas below the old oil wells and coal mines. The primordial form of hydrocarbon on planets and satellite is Methane (CH4, i.e. "natural gas" in fuel context), and there is plenty of that (CH4) on other planets and satellites to other planets, and inside meteorites.

The industry is also simultaneously content for people TODAY to mass-believe in abiogenic oil as it plays to their advantage now. They need only passively STFU and let it propagate virally.

How would a theory that postulates practically unlimited supply of their primary product help them? They invented the biogenic theory in the late 19th century (around the time when dinosaur fossils were discovered elsewhere and became a sensation) in order to make their primary product appear precious. In the other thread, I was bringing up synthetic fuel making from taking CO2 from the sea water (using solar power). That would put a hard limit on how deep it's worth to dig into the ground for oil or natural gas.