patrick.net

“Military intelligence is a contradiction in terms “ -Groucho Marx

richwicks says

The Chechen war started in 1994 and I don't believe that's a picture taken in the 1990's.

When did the second Chechen war start?
And yes, this is a picture of Grozny circa 2000, which you can not believe because of your ideological bend.

Bd6r says

, like thinking that Crimea is 90 pct Russian ethnicity,

Pre-Stalin it wasn't. Reversing Stalin's moves would mean ejecting Russians from a lot of places, and should be done.

zzyzzx says

Pre-Stalin it wasn't. Reversing Stalin's moves would mean ejecting Russians from a lot of places, and should be done.

Even now it is ca. 60 to 70 pct Russian only, so fairy tales about 90 pct voting for annexation by Russia in 2014 are clearly just fairy tales spread by RT Today and some Patnetters.

richwicks says

I don't read your "counter points".

Indeed. You either don't read or read and don't understand. Yet you attempt to respond to them.
But to be clear, those points are not there to persuade you (I know a lost cause when I see one). They are there to expose you as a babbling idiot/propaganda stooge.

Bd6r says

When did the second Chechen war start?
And yes, this is a picture of Grozny circa 2000, which you can not believe because of your ideological bend.

Sure, that's a picture of Grozny circa 2000 if somebody used something like this:



to photograph it.

Bd6r says

It is pointless to argue with willful blindness and abject lack of knowledge about post Soviet space

Indeed. I think that in this instance it's not just lack of knowledge though.

Trolling farms from you-know-where don't really attempt to push certain ideology. Some may think that they are "pro-Trump", or the opposite, but it's a wrong frame altogether. Their main objective in the west is to compromise the fabric of society and to consume mental resources on a large scale. "Keep them busy being mad about something, pit them against one another". For that, being faithful to a specific ideology is unimportant. Even harmful. So they would have one hand supporting BLM, another hand supporting KKK, and third hand just being equally pissed at everyone (there are indeed way more hands). As long as they stir shit.

Which is why I would expect it that quite a few of the BLM or KKK operatives are sponsored from oversees, and I'm very curious about the role of China and Russia in the recent events (something that I may never know).

Now, I don't know the role of the persona in question. It may be just a passionate useful idiot (this is a reasonably small forum after all). But the profile fits: lots of passion, lack of substance, "everyone is an internal enemy", support of Russian aggression in Ukraine (that's one thing common in all the categories because the stakes are so high), long quotes, attempts at visual persuasion (images). Plus, the time spent on all of that - makes you wonder if the person has a real job.

To each his own. But you are right about futility of arguing with him. Whatever I post in response is community service, sort of.

mostly reader says

Trolling farms from you-know-where don't really attempt to push certain ideology. Some may think that they are "pro-Trump", or the opposite, but it's a wrong frame altogether. Their main objective in the west is to compromise the fabric of society and to consume mental resources on a large scale. "Keep them busy being mad about something, pit them against one another".

They are just click bait. Nothing more. This picture was "part of a plan" of "Russian Collusion" to over-turn the US election in favor of Donald Trump in 2016:



And if you think I'm kidding, I'm not. It's funny. The idea is to get you to follow the the add to see more jokes and advertisements along with it. That was the "troll". It was pictures like these that Klit-ton was fuming about that stole the election from her. We're in fucking totally clown world.

richwicks says

, that's a picture of Grozny circa 2000 if somebody used something like this:

Indeed. People never use filters on their cameras to achieve visual effects they want.
And for those who have been banned from yandex here is a link: https://yandex.ru/images/touch/search?text=destroyed+grozny&source=tabbar

It is picture about 18 in this search

But of course this all is not true as st putin can not have bombed a city into oblivion and killed 20 pct of Chechens

mostly reader says

richwicks says

I don't read your "counter points".

Indeed. You either don't read or read and don't understand.

No, I don't read what you write.

Your thinking and logic is so worthless, I no longer consider anything you write worth considering. I'll respond to you, but I will never consider anything you write worth considering ever again.

Reading what you write may actually influence me to disregard similar opinions and information I find from other other sources. From my perspective, you're a madman, either constructed or completely organic, I don't know, I don't care.

richwicks says

No, I don't read what you write.

Yet you attempt to respond. It's all about space consumption, isn't it? The "mostly writer" style. When your arguments are toothless, bury the issue under piles of crap.

mostly reader says

Yet you attempt to respond.

At this point, I just sort of egg you on.

In a few years we'll see the result of the Russian / Ukrainian war. It's possible my prediction is wrong, but I think unlikely. At that time either I will be saying "told you so" or you will be telling me "I told you so".

But you have no intelligent information to give me. You're a belligerent, vile human being that jealously and worthlessly guards how you form what I think at this point is laughably called "your thoughts".

I don't think anything you say is worth deep consideration at this point. You have just recently said you cannot connect Victoria Nuland picking the next leader of Ukraine to a US coup. This is so mindbogglingly stupid, I can't trust any of your logic. On one hand, you might be honest in saying this is your genuine thinking - in this case, I consider this idiocy, on another hand if you're lying, this means you're not truthful. Regardless, nothing you said should be incorporated into my thinking.

richwicks says

You have just recently said you cannot connect Victoria Nuland picking the next leader of Ukraine to a US coup.

Aren't you tired of lying?
That's not what I said (again). I said (more like implied) that connection is not there in light of other factors. I also explained what those other factors are. Other contributors went into much greater detail on that too (you apparently don't read them either)
You are a virtual equivalent of a mentally challenged child, really. Even as a propagandist you stopped being effective once exposed. Now you resort to your last line of offense - tantrums.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

You have just recently said you cannot connect Victoria Nuland picking the next leader of Ukraine to a US coup.

Aren't you tired of lying?

Haha.

https://patrick.net/post/1343769/2022-02-24-greeted-like-liberators-ukraine?start=1123#comment-1853387

I also stopped beating my wife.

The reason I talk to people is to get different perspectives and insights into thinking. You offer none. You'll say one thing and then deny it literally a day later. You don't have any genuine thinking.

richwicks says

I also stopped beating my wife.

There's an element of surprise here, but it's not the beating part.

You do realize that your link supports my statement and destroy yours, don't you? Oh, wait. You just confessed that you don't read me, so you probably don't realize that. OK, keep them coming.

richwicks says

You'll say one thing and then deny it literally a day later.

Nope, you don't get tired of lying.
Prove it. I don't edit my statements past reasonable time. Which you should know, since as it turned out you likely keep scans of them (good, that should keep you busy) So far your links show the opposite.

mostly reader says

You do realize that your link supports my statement and destroy yours, don't you?

No, I do not.

richwicks says

mostly reader says

You do realize that your link supports my statement and destroy yours, don't you?

No, I do not.

I love it when two oppositional defiants go head to head.

Ceffer says

richwicks says

mostly reader says

You do realize that your link supports my statement and destroy yours, don't you?

No, I do not.

I love it when two oppositional defiants go head to head.

What does that mean?

I just don't think "mostly reader" is rational, for whatever reason. It doesn't matter if they are delusional or dishonest, same result -> ignore stated thinking or conclusion. Probably should ignore him altogether, but I have a strict rule of not ignoring anybody.

richwicks says

I just don't think

You could stop right there.

Of course you don't: thinking is not in job description of a propagandist. Job of a propagandist is more along the line of lying, misrepresenting, twisting facts, and pushing agenda. Basically, all the things that you do.

https://bioclandestine.substack.com/p/tensions-rising-in-russia

Ukraine or Russia, and what does this uniform reminds you of?



(My answer - Nazi porn fetish by ruling class in that country)

https://gettr.com/post/p1fsx2a5992

mostly reader says

richwicks says

I just don't think

You could stop right there.

Of course you don't: thinking is not in job description of a propagandist.

What I think changes nothing.

If Russia gets what it claims it wants - that Ukraine remain neutral, that Ukraine stops bombing Eastern Ukraine - what will you say then?

You can call me anything you wish, but I'm just trying to look at this situation objectively. I know people are dying, I know there's bloodshed, I want it to end, and I think the only reasonable way to end this is for Ukraine to remain neutral and for Western Ukraine to stop attacking Eastern Ukraine. How do you end the bloodshed?

There's a well defined Western idea of war. You fight a war PROVIDED you have a good chance of winning the war, and that the war is worthwhile to engage in. I think the Ukraine/Russian war fails both those tests. Russia CLAIMS what Ukraine is doing is an existential threat to it. That's their claim (perhaps lie?), but if they act upon this, it will be nuclear war before they lose, and I don't think they will resort to that.

This is nothing more than another stupid fucking war, which assholes like this dickhead:


original link

are promoting.

You have to understand, please, these motherfuckers don't give a fuck about innocent people dying. They are using Ukraine for money laundering and they don't give a fuck if they are successful or not. It's just money laundering. They don't care.

It's said (who knows if it's true) that only 10% of the Russian military is engaged with this stupid fucking war that is being run by criminal triple and double staters and criminal hangers on. They don't give a fuck who wins. They make money off from this calamity. They don't care.

Our fucking president doesn't give a shit about the outcome. The chaos makes him money. That's our rulers.

richwicks says

I think the only reasonable way to end this is for Ukraine to remain neutral and for Western Ukraine to stop attacking Eastern Ukraine. How do you end the bloodshed?

You repeat the same debunked message over and over again. "Western Ukraine to stop attacking Eastern Ukraine" my ass. News flash: Putin started that hybrid war in 2014, and then full invasion in 2022.

I just watched Lavrov's interview with BBC (in Russian) The conviction with which this guy is lying to your face is amazing. Every time he says something that's hard to believe, I go double-check - and sure enough, he's twisting reality like a pretzel. Trouble with doing an interview with someone like him is that the interviewer can't jump online while doing the interview, so Lavrov doesn't get exposed on the spot.

Just one example. Zelensky have said earlier that if someone lives in Ukraine they live in Ukraine. If they want to be part of Russia then they better move there. Lavrov twisted it into claiming that "Zelensky said that Russian speakers are not welcome in Ukraine and better move to Russia". Something along these lines. The dipshit claimed it with a straight face.

That's how they build their talking points to brainwash the gullible. It's their specialty. What you try to present as a "sensible approach" is built up on the worldview constructed by professional liars and scammers .

mostly reader says

Just one example. Zelensky have said earlier that if someone lives in Ukraine they live in Ukraine. If they want to be part of Russia then they better move there. Lavrov twisted it into claiming that "Zelensky said that Russian speakers are not welcome in Ukraine and better move to Russia". Something along these lines. The dipshit claimed it with a straight face.

What you and Zelensky are advocating is called Ethnic Cleansing. Supporting regional self-determination has long been US foreign policy. In fact, in this case is worse than Ethnic Cleansing: usually Ethnic Cleansing involves the removal of an ethnic minority from a region, whereas in this case Russian speakers who don't want to be discriminated by Zelensky regime are the majority of the region. The situation is rather analogous to Kosovo in the 1990's: the majority of locals wanted to either be "independent" or join Albania despite existing geopolitical map having that region as part of Serbia; on that occasion, the NATO intervened militarily to stop Serbia from suppressing locals. The operating theory was/is that National Sovereignty and Territorial Integrity do not trump Basic Human Rights; that is actually a good principle to uphold if/when it's a struggle between democracies vs. dictatorships. "Germany for Germans" "Serbia for Serbians" and "Ukraine for Ukrainians" are all essentially national-socialistic/Nazi slogans. The leaders of any multi-ethnic country are supposed to be accommodative to its existing populations, not discriminate against ethnic/linguistic groups within its borders.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

I think the only reasonable way to end this is for Ukraine to remain neutral and for Western Ukraine to stop attacking Eastern Ukraine. How do you end the bloodshed?

You repeat the same debunked message over and over again. "Western Ukraine to stop attacking Eastern Ukraine" my ass. News flash: Putin started that hybrid war in 2014, and then full invasion in 2022.

Ohhhhh! DEBONKED!! You say it like Abracadabra. It's magic word now. Just say the magic word of "DEBONKED" and whatever you say next magically has been proven untrue.

The United States engineered a coup d’état of Ukraine in 2014. AGAIN the proof (this is not debatable) of this is that Victoria Nuland was caught picking out the next leader of Ukraine at least 2 weeks and 4 days before the previously, ELECTED, leader was removed from power. The call was made available on Feb 4, 2014, Viktor Yanukovych left power on Feb 22, 2014.

Right after that coup, Eastern Ukraine was at war with Western Ukraine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas

That began in March 2014, after the coup d'etat because they didn't accept the coup d’état. That's a MONTH later.

If the US didn't overthrow Ukraine's government, there would have been no conflict between Eastern and Western Ukraine. This is obvious, but you can't see the obvious or pretend not to be able to see it. I don't know which one it is, who cares?

YOU deny there was a coup, because either you lack basic thinking skills, you just lie, whatever, I don't care. It was obviously a coup, and people who deny it was a coup are for whatever reason living in a fantasy world. The absolute, obvious fact that a coup was done by the United States is obvious. It's the most blatantly obvious coup EVER.

I'm in Silicon Valley, I have begun to use this example of the most obvious coup d’état ever in the history of the world, to detect people's level of cognitive dissonance. I have a friend, who is an MIT graduate, that can't explain how Victoria Nuland was picking the next leader of Ukraine (Arseniy Yatseniuk) 2 weeks and 4 days before Viktor Yanukovych left office, despite me giving him the transcript between Victoria Nuland and Geoffrey Pyatt:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

He's JUST LIKE YOU, he denies it. I can't IMAGINE having such slavish obedience to the state as to truly believe them when they say 2+2=3 or 2+2=5 depending on what the state says.

You, are nothing more than a broken George Winston to me, and the same is true of my MIT graduate friend. I didn't know how few people actually had balls and a backbone, but it's been made VERY clear in the last 2 years. Anybody that told me that the unvaccinated posed a threat to the vaccinated, anybody that told me CHILDREN should be vaccinated, because the CHILD might kill 80 year old grandma, pathetic. I have a friend that is 10 years younger than me, I have stated to him outright that if his children's freedom has to be curtailed in order to reduce the possibility of me getting a fatal disease, just put a bullet in my head - as I've lived my life and his children have not.

I've struggled for DECADES to understand what a bunch of NATURAL SLAVES I live among, I had no idea. I had no idea what a bunch of pathetic cocksockers I lived among. I honestly had no clue.

We have the most obvious, blatant example of an CIA coup, and you deny it. It's hilarious. You are ANGRY with me, because I'm not such a fucking pathetic pussy that I refuse to deny it along with you. You have no freedom of thought, somebody controls it. THAT is why you're so pissed off with me, constantly. I'm allowed to do something you dream of doing, I can make an independent conclusion divorced from the stupid bullshit propaganda of my government.

In 10 years you'll begrudgingly admit you were wrong, PRIVATELY, never to me. Until then you'll repeat the lie, a lie which protects the Biden's involvement of the coup. Hunter Biden, the crackwhore, was placed on the board of Burisma on April, 2014 - 2 months after the coup. What a "coincidence!" you lie to yourself.

It's, hands down, the most blatant example of corruption in my lifetime and you pretend not to see it. It's just pathetic. You're a coward.

All I am doing is encouraging you not to be such a coward. I can do it, so can you. I don't understand what people are so afraid of. All that happens is NPC nutjobs, like you, scream at you and repeat propaganda like idiots. Propaganda, in this case, are just obvious lies. I'm more embarrassed to repeat a lie, than to call out the truth. You, are not. There's no real consequences other than you're able to detect who accepts being lied to, and who doesn't. 90% of the people I know, are pussies.

Do you hate Russia, or it's government? Who gives a shit, reality doesn't care about your feelings, and your feelings don't effect reality. Regardless of who you or I support in this stupid fucking war, won't effect the outcome of the war at all. If I was a pathetic cocksucker, I could scream about Russia being BAAAAAD and those poor Ukrainians, and so on. I could repeat the bullshit about the Ghost of "Kyiv" and those martyrs on Snake Island, I could scream about how evil Putler is and so on, like a moron sheep, but it will have no effect on the outcome of this conflict.

I'm only interest in how my stupid fucking incredible government lies to me and secondarily, how many people have absolutely blind obedience to them, no matter how fucking stupid the propaganda is. You're a slavish obedient. The levels of absurdity people will go through to defend the madness, it's hilarious.

Reality says

Supporting regional self-determination has long been US foreign policy.

How did it work out for Chechnya?
Picture below shows the Butcher of Chechnya who is responsible for hundreds of thousands of dead Chechens with some persons you might know:

Bd6r says

Reality says

Supporting regional self-determination has long been US foreign policy.

How did it work out for Chechnya?

The US doesn't support regional self-determination. Isn't Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Libya, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen proof of that?

The US will cynically claim regional self-determination exclusively when it's in US foreign policy interests. They entirely ignore it otherwise. The US doesn't care about self-determination although it's claimed to be a fundamental human right. The US doesn't care about human rights, just ask the people who were protesting a stolen election of which 800 are in prison right now.

Reality says

What you and Zelensky are advocating is called Ethnic Cleansing. Supporting regional self-determination has long been US foreign policy. In fact, in this case is worse than Ethnic Cleansing: usually Ethnic Cleansing involves the removal of an ethnic minority from a region, whereas in this case Russian speakers who don't want to be discriminated by Zelensky regime are the majority of the region.

Zelensky have said nothing that would align with "removal of an ethnic minority". His message was clearly about the country in which those people live. Then Lavrov turned it into something that it wasn't (hey, I saw this pattern before! among some of the contributors here, no further) In his usual "pee in your face and tell you that it's raining" kind of way.

I'd think that it would be too much even for him to continue yapping about suppression of Russian language. Since Russian-speaking people of Ukraine kick ass against the Rashists on the battlefield. But no, let's not those little inconveniences get in the way of good propaganda.

richwicks says

Ohhhhh! DEBONKED!! You say it like Abracadabra.

I say it like someone who repeatedly pointed it out and explained why. It wasn't hard: we now know all the details of the beginning of that hybrid war. The operatives who started it told us. In interviews. That's right, they told us themselves. Then, of course, you respond to me without reading (as you self-confessed), and I suspect that you do the same kind of data filtering for other facts that trash your worldview.

You get spanked, pretend that it didn't happen, and continue spewing your usual nonsense.

mostly reader says

That's right, they told us themselves.

That was in Russian, which most of Patnet armchair experts do not understand. Hence, according to them this must not exist, as it goes against their deepest-held beliefs.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

Ohhhhh! DEBONKED!! You say it like Abracadabra.

I say it like someone who repeatedly pointed it out and explained why.

You are no different than a fact checker that makes a false claim then swears it's true. All you do is destroy your reputation.

The United States overthrew Ukraine in 2014. We know this for a fact because Victoria Nuland selected the next leader of Ukraine. The war in Eastern and Western Ukraine happened only a month later. The new US puppet leadership of Ukraine then began making open statements of joining NATO although neither Germany nor Italy would ever permit it.

This indicates that if the US didn't overthrow Ukraine there would have been no civil war and Russia would have never invaded Ukraine to end the civil war and to keep Ukraine out of NATO.

The war could have easily been prevented but now that it's happened, you stupidly side with the assholes that set the grounds for it. Russia will win the conflict and the result will be a lot of dead people, that didn't have to die. It's unlikely Russia will be weaker as a result, but that was the hope of the United States.

mostly reader says

you respond to me without reading (as you self-confessed),

Your thinking is so disjointed, so absurd, that if it happens that you were to write something that coincidentally turns out to be correct, it would poison my thinking.

Your logic and reasoning is so bad, I consider anything you write as being from a madman, and madmen can be correct occasionally. I don't want to dismiss something that is true, just because a crazy person wrote it, because you wrote it. You have consistently shown you have no regard for reality.

Bd6r says

Hence, according to them this must not exist, as it goes against their deepest-held beliefs.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. It doesn't help if the horse wears blinders.

Why do I think about Lavrov when I write about horses?

richwicks says

Your thinking is so disjointed, so absurd, that if it happens that you were to write something that coincidentally turns out to be correct, it would poison my thinking.

A better explanation is that you are so invested in your worldview that you experience physical pain when it comes down crumbling. The horse that wears blinders shouldn't be surprised that it gets whipped every once in a while.

mostly reader says

Bd6r says

Hence, according to them this must not exist, as it goes against their deepest-held beliefs.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. It doesn't help if the horse wears blinders.

Why do I think about Lavrov when I write about horses?

Because he has a horse-like face and his intellect is probably less than that of an average horse?

About persons who think that talking to Russia is useful, here is an opinion of someone who knows Russia/Putler very well. Why do you think he behaves differently in Ukraine?

https://www.kavkazcenter.com/russ/content/2005/06/20/35300/m--udugov-rossiya-dolzhna-byt-vzyata-pod-vneshnee-upravlenie.shtml

As for Putin, there are all signs of a classic war criminal and international terrorist. Putin carried out military aggression against a sovereign state, violating the Russian-Chechen peace treaty. Putin killed a quarter of a million civilians, that is, 25% of the entire Chechen people. Putin killed tens of thousands of Chechen children of preschool and school age, declaring all children from the age of 10 terrorists. Putin has organized and is carrying out the genocide of the Chechen people. Putin carried out a terrorist act outside of Russia in a foreign country, killing the ex-president of the CRI Yandarbiev, using the diplomatic mail of the Russian Foreign Ministry to transfer explosives to Qatar. Putin carried out a terrorist act on the territory of the CRI, killing President Maskhadov. Putin has carried out and continues to carry out the murders of Chechen politicians and public figures abroad and on the territory of the CRI. Putin carries out mass kidnappings. Putin initiated the creation in Chechnya and in Russia of torture concentration camps, bandit terrorist formations and "death squadrons". Putin gave the order to poison people in Nord-Ost and to shoot children in Beslan with tanks and flamethrowers.

The question must be put in a completely different way - no negotiations can be held with Putin. The condition for negotiations with Russia should be not only the withdrawal of troops, but also the arrest and extradition of Putin to Chechen law enforcement agencies. Any accusations against Basayev, if anyone has them, can be considered exclusively by the laws of the Chechen State.

Putin is no match for Basayev, they cannot be put on the same level. Putin is a war criminal, a serial killer who has committed crimes against humanity. Basayev is the defender of his Fatherland, who resorts to forced measures in order to stop the mass extermination of his people.

A crisis has matured in Russia, and an explosion is only a matter of time. Russia under Putin is increasingly slipping into the league of failed states. By all indications, it is clear that the regime is concerned about its future and is ready to fight for its survival. It is difficult to predict what will come to mind of its leaders at the time of the crisis.

Taking into account the fact that this regime has weapons of mass destruction in its hands, which are being squandered uncontrollably (and these facts are known to exist), there should already be an emergency anti-crisis plan to establish an international administration in Moscow, to send special troops to high-risk facilities, isolation of the most odious military and political figures.

One can be willing to consider that Putin has broken his word quite a few times and therefore is not the best person to negotiate with, but one cannot argue with people claiming the Ukraine was not overthrown in 2014 with the help of the US to install a US friendly, corrupt puppet-government - look no further to xiden and burisma. Both can be true at the same time. So don't gaslight and be obtuse about the overthrow, it does not help the arguments. Also, should you truly believe this was the will of the Ukrainian people then you should be happy about the Russians and Ukrainians of Russian ethnicity asserting themselves in the donetsk and luhansk region, just fighting for the government they want. Meanwhile people continue to die without any serious negotiation efforts.

mell says

therefore is not the best person to negotiate with

therefore negotiating with him is pointless, as Chechens have repeatedly stated from their own experience.
mell says

Russians and Ukrainians of Russian ethnicity asserting themselves in the donetsk and luhansk region, just fighting for the government they want.

We don't know that, may be the plurality were for Ukraine, or did not care.
mell says

Ukraine was not overthrown in 2014 with the help of the US to install a US friendly, corrupt puppet-government

That gubbermint was voted out a few yrs ago in an extremely acrimonious election

Bd6r says

mell says

Ukraine was not overthrown in 2014 with the help of the US to install a US friendly, corrupt puppet-government

That gubbermint was voted out a few yrs ago in an extremely acrimonious election

It seems unlikely to me that the Ukrainian government was legitimately elected either before or after 2014. In the first case, I expect Russia placed a Russia-friendly guy in power, and in the second case I expect the US placed a US-friendly guy in power.

The Ukrainian voters probably had little say in it either way. Kind of like with American voters in 2020.

Patrick says

Bd6r says

mell says

Ukraine was not overthrown in 2014 with the help of the US to install a US friendly, corrupt puppet-government

That gubbermint was voted out a few yrs ago in an extremely acrimonious election

It seems unlikely to me that the Ukrainian government was legitimately elected either before or after 2014. In the first case, I expect Russia placed a Russia-friendly guy in power, and in the second case I expect the US placed a US-friendly guy in power.

The Ukrainian voters probably had little say in it either way. Kind of like with American voters in 2020.

Agreed. What is the difference though between people "uprising and overthrowing" their government in the Ukraine vs in donbass or crimea? None. Talking pre Putin war of course, the situation has been volatile in those regions for many years.