Greeted like Liberators: Ukraine Invasion Thread
invite response
2022 Feb 23, 8:30pm 435,537 views 4,257 comments
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149
mostly reader
2022 Feb 25, 7:19pm
mostly reader says
1. Realize that propaganda trolls follow marching orders.
2. They are low-level yet organized, they have curators, the curators synchronize their activities.
3. As a group, they synchronously change topics and points. Most of the time very passionately, they would promote a point that just yesterday wasn't even on the radar.
4. Most of us follow multiple boards. If you see this behavior happen at about the same time, and in different sources, and in sync, and they promote the same point, and the personalities are already under suspicion - this is your tell.
5. Today, I observed this switch from "it's all a lie, this is not happening, photos are fake, reports are fake" to "Russia is reasonable, resistance is futile, it's just killing of Ukrainians" in more than one source.
Besides my initial point, this is good news. It means that Ukraine is holding up despite the odds, and that Russia is getting worried.
richwicks saysI probably owe a follow-up explanation to the group. I'll do it in the form of "here's one tell on how to spot propaganda trolls". Here it is:These aren't unreasonable demands, and Ukraine fighting over this, is just killing Ukrainians. This war should have never happened.This is a "F U, propaganda troll" moment. I now have enough data to accurately classify you.
1. Realize that propaganda trolls follow marching orders.
2. They are low-level yet organized, they have curators, the curators synchronize their activities.
3. As a group, they synchronously change topics and points. Most of the time very passionately, they would promote a point that just yesterday wasn't even on the radar.
4. Most of us follow multiple boards. If you see this behavior happen at about the same time, and in different sources, and in sync, and they promote the same point, and the personalities are already under suspicion - this is your tell.
5. Today, I observed this switch from "it's all a lie, this is not happening, photos are fake, reports are fake" to "Russia is reasonable, resistance is futile, it's just killing of Ukrainians" in more than one source.
Besides my initial point, this is good news. It means that Ukraine is holding up despite the odds, and that Russia is getting worried.
150
richwicks
2022 Feb 25, 7:19pm
richwicks
2022 Feb 25, 7:19pm
Eric Holder says
When did I ever claim that Russia was liberating Ukraine? You are mistaken.
I don't have emotional involvement with conflicts any more, and I know the people that start these conflicts don't. Russia has an ultimatum, it has NOTHING to do with the quality of life of the peasants of Ukraine. They are exactly like our government, although our government engages in conflicts for corporate profits, not national benefit.
Eric Holder says
You mean coherent, not cogent. I often made this error myself.
Do not strawman me.
You want to talk, talk, but don't waste my time trying to force me to defend a position I do not hold.
What?What is NATO has to do with the fact that you were caught lying about Russians "not claiming to be liberators"?
This is just another nothing burger. NATO isn't going to do anything,
When did I ever claim that Russia was liberating Ukraine? You are mistaken.
I don't have emotional involvement with conflicts any more, and I know the people that start these conflicts don't. Russia has an ultimatum, it has NOTHING to do with the quality of life of the peasants of Ukraine. They are exactly like our government, although our government engages in conflicts for corporate profits, not national benefit.
Eric Holder says
Can you even have a cogent conversation without jumping around like a fucking flea on meth from one topic to another? Sheeesh. What a fucking joke.
You mean coherent, not cogent. I often made this error myself.
Do not strawman me.
You want to talk, talk, but don't waste my time trying to force me to defend a position I do not hold.
151
Bd6r
2022 Feb 25, 7:24pm
Bd6r
2022 Feb 25, 7:24pm
mostly reader says
There are rumors that russians want talks. This means they are not winning. Advice from Chechens - talk only about how Russians will surrender with short time frame and in ultimatum form. Otherwise russians will use talk time to regroup and recuperate.
Besides my initial point, this is good news. It means that Ukraine is holding up despite the odds, and that Russia is getting worried.
There are rumors that russians want talks. This means they are not winning. Advice from Chechens - talk only about how Russians will surrender with short time frame and in ultimatum form. Otherwise russians will use talk time to regroup and recuperate.
152
richwicks
2022 Feb 25, 7:41pm
richwicks
2022 Feb 25, 7:41pm
Bd6r says
In war, all sides lie.
mostly reader saysBesides my initial point, this is good news. It means that Ukraine is holding up despite the odds, and that Russia is getting worried.
There are rumors that russians want talks. This means they are not winning. Advice from Chechens - talk only about how Russians will surrender with short time frame and in ultimatum form. Otherwise russians will use talk time to regroup and recuperate.
In war, all sides lie.
153
Tenpoundbass
2022 Feb 25, 7:48pm
Tenpoundbass
2022 Feb 25, 7:48pm
mostly reader says
No it means like all involved have said since the beginning. That it is a Civil War between Pro NATO/EU Ukraine, vs the Russian Separatists. 50% of the country is holding up against the other 50%. If that other 50% actually had the might of Putin behind it, it would look more like every US invasion in the Gulf from Kuwait to Iraq and Afghanistan it would be nonstop pressure.
If anyone is getting worried is Zelenski the US offered him an air lift out the country. But Zelinski turned it down. If it's true Putin wants him dead, Biden Needs him dead.
He's got all of the receipts.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/02/leadership-us-offered-ukrainian-president-zelensky-flight-country-save-life-refused-says-wants-stay-defend-country/?source=patrick.net
My friend who is a good guy and means well, listens to the MSM propaganda horse shit and is under the full understanding that Zelenski is in hiding cut off from escaping and Russian troops are going house to house looking for him. My guess is, those reports are bullshit, and Zelenski knows it, and the last thing he should do is get in car that the Godfather of the world's biggest and most open Crime family sent him. Especially knowing he's got the goods on the criminal thug, and they are worried he might sing.
"I'll take my chances with Pootie Poo, thanks but no thanks!"
Besides my initial point, this is good news. It means that Ukraine is holding up despite the odds, and that Russia is getting worried.
No it means like all involved have said since the beginning. That it is a Civil War between Pro NATO/EU Ukraine, vs the Russian Separatists. 50% of the country is holding up against the other 50%. If that other 50% actually had the might of Putin behind it, it would look more like every US invasion in the Gulf from Kuwait to Iraq and Afghanistan it would be nonstop pressure.
If anyone is getting worried is Zelenski the US offered him an air lift out the country. But Zelinski turned it down. If it's true Putin wants him dead, Biden Needs him dead.
He's got all of the receipts.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/02/leadership-us-offered-ukrainian-president-zelensky-flight-country-save-life-refused-says-wants-stay-defend-country/?source=patrick.net
My friend who is a good guy and means well, listens to the MSM propaganda horse shit and is under the full understanding that Zelenski is in hiding cut off from escaping and Russian troops are going house to house looking for him. My guess is, those reports are bullshit, and Zelenski knows it, and the last thing he should do is get in car that the Godfather of the world's biggest and most open Crime family sent him. Especially knowing he's got the goods on the criminal thug, and they are worried he might sing.
"I'll take my chances with Pootie Poo, thanks but no thanks!"
155
mostly reader
2022 Feb 25, 8:19pm
Tenpoundbass says
No it means like all involved have said since the beginning. That it is a Civil War between Pro NATO/EU Ukraine, vs the Russian Separatists. 50% of the country is holding up against the other 50%. If that other 50% actually had the might of Putin behind it, it would look more like every US invasion in the Gulf from Kuwait to Iraq and Afghanistan it would be nonstop pressureI'm not parsing. Do you suggest that this is a Civil War and that there's no Russian invasion in Ukraine?
156
mostly reader
2022 Feb 25, 8:27pm
Bd6r says
- Russians have no infantry worth a damn. Which is why they'll have to employ armored vehicles.
- Those vehicles will be destroyed, but Putler will want results. That will take it to the next step - massive artillery shelling, because the concept of precise hits doesn't exist there in the practical sense.
- The shelling will cause massive civilian casualties.
- Russia may take Kyiv, but at such cost and with such consequences that no number of trolls will help Putler to mitigate the damage. The type of damage which will cause severe financial repercussions.
Lose-lose.
mostly reader saysThinking a bit more, here's one likely course of events:Besides my initial point, this is good news. It means that Ukraine is holding up despite the odds, and that Russia is getting worried.
There are rumors that russians want talks. This means they are not winning. Advice from Chechens - talk only about how Russians will surrender with short time frame and in ultimatum form. Otherwise russians will use talk time to regroup and recuperate.
- Russians have no infantry worth a damn. Which is why they'll have to employ armored vehicles.
- Those vehicles will be destroyed, but Putler will want results. That will take it to the next step - massive artillery shelling, because the concept of precise hits doesn't exist there in the practical sense.
- The shelling will cause massive civilian casualties.
- Russia may take Kyiv, but at such cost and with such consequences that no number of trolls will help Putler to mitigate the damage. The type of damage which will cause severe financial repercussions.
Lose-lose.
157
Bd6r
2022 Feb 25, 8:36pm
Bd6r
2022 Feb 25, 8:36pm
mostly reader says
Reasonable possibility.
Another one - if he will feel that he is losing, Putler will pull out and declare victory. In that case, Ukrainians would be stupid not to attack Donbass.
What worries me is that there is something unpredictable Putler can pull off if he does not get what he wants.
Russians have no infantry worth a damn. Which is why they'll have to employ armored vehicles.
- Those vehicles will be destroyed, but Putler will want results. That will take it to the next step - massive artillery shelling, because the concept of precise hits doesn't exist there in the practical sense.
- The shelling will cause massive civilian casualties.
- Russia may take Kyiv, but at such cost and with such consequences that no number of trolls will help Putler to mitigate the damage. The type of damage which will cause severe financial repercussions.
Lose-lose.
Reasonable possibility.
Another one - if he will feel that he is losing, Putler will pull out and declare victory. In that case, Ukrainians would be stupid not to attack Donbass.
What worries me is that there is something unpredictable Putler can pull off if he does not get what he wants.
158
richwicks
2022 Feb 25, 10:24pm
richwicks
2022 Feb 25, 10:24pm
Bd6r says
When Georgia attacked South Ossetia back in 2008, and S. Ossetia asked Russia for help, Russia was in an out in 24 hours. Georgia is a lot smaller than Ukraine, but Ukraine has ONLY recently broken ties with Russia and only did so because of a US led coup back in 2014.
This stupid, pointless war, won't last long. I'd be quite surprised if it was still going on next Friday.
The United States and NATO has fucked Ukraine by putting them into corner by falsely promising them backup and egging them on into a war.
But in a week, I will know if I'm full of shit or not. I expect the resolution will be what Putin demanded in the beginning, making the war entirely pointless for Ukraine. All this war will result in, is a bunch of deaths. Just fucking stupid.
I'd like to see some competent ambassadors again instead of trans-sexual POC twats running this nation. Not to say trans-sexual POC twats aren't necessarily competent, but when you select from only that group of assholes, it's a pretty shallow bowl and slim pickins..
mostly reader saysRussians have no infantry worth a damn. Which is why they'll have to employ armored vehicles.
- Those vehicles will be destroyed, but Putler will want results. That will take it to the next step - massive artillery shelling, because the concept of precise hits doesn't exist there in the practical sense.
- The shelling will cause massive civilian casualties.
- Russia may take Kyiv, but at such cost and with such consequences that no number of trolls will help Putler to mitigate the damage. The type of damage which will cause severe financial repercussions.
Lose-lose.
Reasonable possibility.
Another one - if he will feel that he is losing, Putler will pull out and declare victory. In that case, Ukrainians would be stupid not to attack Donbass.
What worries me is that there is something unpredictable Putler can pull off if he does not get what he wants.
When Georgia attacked South Ossetia back in 2008, and S. Ossetia asked Russia for help, Russia was in an out in 24 hours. Georgia is a lot smaller than Ukraine, but Ukraine has ONLY recently broken ties with Russia and only did so because of a US led coup back in 2014.
This stupid, pointless war, won't last long. I'd be quite surprised if it was still going on next Friday.
The United States and NATO has fucked Ukraine by putting them into corner by falsely promising them backup and egging them on into a war.
But in a week, I will know if I'm full of shit or not. I expect the resolution will be what Putin demanded in the beginning, making the war entirely pointless for Ukraine. All this war will result in, is a bunch of deaths. Just fucking stupid.
I'd like to see some competent ambassadors again instead of trans-sexual POC twats running this nation. Not to say trans-sexual POC twats aren't necessarily competent, but when you select from only that group of assholes, it's a pretty shallow bowl and slim pickins..
159
AmericanKulak
2022 Feb 25, 11:39pm
AmericanKulak
2022 Feb 25, 11:39pm
richwicks says
Russia is a uniquely evil country in the Dark Woods.
If you don't approach Russia like ancient Romans approached the Dank Dark Forest of the Teutonics aorund 30BC, you are a fool.
All Russians do is plot evil against Europe.
The West just wants to bring Russia love and democracy, which is why in the 90s Wall Street firms ran wild in the country and enjoyed laughing Mafia Chaos
But the moment somebody restored a semblance of order, Russia became dark Teutonberg forest again, esp. when the Current Leader of Mordor stopped Wall Street from running wild with shock capitalism.
Refusing to work with any Russian leader who reimposes a semblance of order and doesn't bend over to Wall Street is Correct and Just.
Russia has no Reason to be fearful of Europeans, who only want the best for Russia, the the Orthodox Heretic Slaying Teutonic Order, the Grand Marshal of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, Napoleon, Greedy Swedish Kings, Expansive Hapsbergs, and Hitler.
Kick in Ze Door and Der Whole Verrotten Thing Vill Collapse. All ze Nickel, Gold, und Oil be Ours! - Every European State Expanding East into Russia.
Literally the FIRST ACT of 2nd Republic Poland in the 1910s was to invade Russia, and while the excuse is "Bolshevism", they attacked and annexed parts of the East under Whites, Greens, or Ukrainian Ersatz Governments, not just the Reds because they wanted to recreate the Glorious Commonwealth. No Causus Belli, just got up and attacked one day. The ink was not dry on their independence documents, and the territory was way beyond their assignment in the post War Treaties.
Thus, there is no reason for Russia to fear Poland or Europeans generally, but only Europeans are allowed to fear Russians.
Russia must submit to better, smarter, Western rule, recognize the Men can Be Women and Have Lady Penises like Modern People - not Barbarian Nazis do, and open it's resources for purchase by German and City and Wall Street firms.
Well educate me.
Russia is a uniquely evil country in the Dark Woods.
If you don't approach Russia like ancient Romans approached the Dank Dark Forest of the Teutonics aorund 30BC, you are a fool.
All Russians do is plot evil against Europe.
The West just wants to bring Russia love and democracy, which is why in the 90s Wall Street firms ran wild in the country and enjoyed laughing Mafia Chaos
But the moment somebody restored a semblance of order, Russia became dark Teutonberg forest again, esp. when the Current Leader of Mordor stopped Wall Street from running wild with shock capitalism.
Refusing to work with any Russian leader who reimposes a semblance of order and doesn't bend over to Wall Street is Correct and Just.
Russia has no Reason to be fearful of Europeans, who only want the best for Russia, the the Orthodox Heretic Slaying Teutonic Order, the Grand Marshal of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, Napoleon, Greedy Swedish Kings, Expansive Hapsbergs, and Hitler.
Kick in Ze Door and Der Whole Verrotten Thing Vill Collapse. All ze Nickel, Gold, und Oil be Ours! - Every European State Expanding East into Russia.
Literally the FIRST ACT of 2nd Republic Poland in the 1910s was to invade Russia, and while the excuse is "Bolshevism", they attacked and annexed parts of the East under Whites, Greens, or Ukrainian Ersatz Governments, not just the Reds because they wanted to recreate the Glorious Commonwealth. No Causus Belli, just got up and attacked one day. The ink was not dry on their independence documents, and the territory was way beyond their assignment in the post War Treaties.
Thus, there is no reason for Russia to fear Poland or Europeans generally, but only Europeans are allowed to fear Russians.
Russia must submit to better, smarter, Western rule, recognize the Men can Be Women and Have Lady Penises like Modern People - not Barbarian Nazis do, and open it's resources for purchase by German and City and Wall Street firms.
160
AmericanKulak
2022 Feb 25, 11:44pm
AmericanKulak
2022 Feb 25, 11:44pm
richwicks says
As predicted 25 years ago by Kennan and over the last decade hammered endlessly by Mearsheimer.
Literally every single step, including the goading against Russia after interfering with domestic Ukrainian politics to select only the most Russophobic leaders right up to the holding out of EU/NATO membership carrots, down to the Last Minute Abandonment when Russia "Did Something."
The United States and NATO has fucked Ukraine by putting them into corner by falsely promising them backup and egging them on into a war.
As predicted 25 years ago by Kennan and over the last decade hammered endlessly by Mearsheimer.
Literally every single step, including the goading against Russia after interfering with domestic Ukrainian politics to select only the most Russophobic leaders right up to the holding out of EU/NATO membership carrots, down to the Last Minute Abandonment when Russia "Did Something."
161
AmericanKulak
2022 Feb 25, 11:50pm
AmericanKulak
2022 Feb 25, 11:50pm
The other great stupid is the Baltics. The little pipsqueaks are all trouble, no reward.
So many stupid wars started by a Great Power guaranteeing a little Pipsqueak like Andorra or Latvia or San Marino, only to find a huge war when the pipsqueak acts the shit towards another Great Power because he feels he's hanging with the Big Dog, and then runs crying to it's Big Dog demanding military action when the other big guy gets mad and swats it. Even though both have nothing to gain by fighting each other.
But we have Financiers and Georgetown Idealist Kids in charge, whose knowledge of actual geopolitics and history is limited to a half-baked conception of WW2.
Sure would be nice if somebody used a different analogy, like the 30 Years War or the 2nd Anglo-Dutch War or something instead of WW2.
"Ghaddafyi is like Hitler..." "Well, Turkey is like Vichy France... "
So many stupid wars started by a Great Power guaranteeing a little Pipsqueak like Andorra or Latvia or San Marino, only to find a huge war when the pipsqueak acts the shit towards another Great Power because he feels he's hanging with the Big Dog, and then runs crying to it's Big Dog demanding military action when the other big guy gets mad and swats it. Even though both have nothing to gain by fighting each other.
But we have Financiers and Georgetown Idealist Kids in charge, whose knowledge of actual geopolitics and history is limited to a half-baked conception of WW2.
Sure would be nice if somebody used a different analogy, like the 30 Years War or the 2nd Anglo-Dutch War or something instead of WW2.
"Ghaddafyi is like Hitler..." "Well, Turkey is like Vichy France... "
163
AmericanKulak
2022 Feb 26, 4:55am
AmericanKulak
2022 Feb 26, 4:55am
If you think Zelenskyy is good now, just wait and see if he signs a deal with Putin.
He'll go from Hero to Zero in the Western Press in a second.
There's a reason Biden wants him to flee to the USA -- so he can't talk to Putin without US approval:
"Blinken, Zelensky is on the phone Putin!"
"Shut it down, Vicky!"
He'll go from Hero to Zero in the Western Press in a second.
There's a reason Biden wants him to flee to the USA -- so he can't talk to Putin without US approval:
"Blinken, Zelensky is on the phone Putin!"
"Shut it down, Vicky!"
178
Tenpoundbass
2022 Feb 26, 5:39am
Tenpoundbass
2022 Feb 26, 5:39am
Ah the mask holes are all upset that little Crazy Joey let Putin war Ukraine on his watch. Actually his whole administration using the MSM as a bullhorn, told Putin that he didn't have a hair on his ass if he DID'T invade Ukraine. Shit stirring has consequences.
179
Tenpoundbass
2022 Feb 26, 5:43am
Tenpoundbass
2022 Feb 26, 5:43am
Al_Sharpton_for_President says
One thing has nothing to do with the other, other than to trigger my Commie Spidey Senses, one thing has nothing to do with the other, would you like to play along.
Can you spot the anti-anti-maskers, that has all 3 vax, and all 4 boosters, and is a member of the Michelle Obama club, and is using this golden opportunity to show her support for her, and oh year there was this anti war protest or something.
One thing has nothing to do with the other, other than to trigger my Commie Spidey Senses, one thing has nothing to do with the other, would you like to play along.
Can you spot the anti-anti-maskers, that has all 3 vax, and all 4 boosters, and is a member of the Michelle Obama club, and is using this golden opportunity to show her support for her, and oh year there was this anti war protest or something.
180
AmericanKulak
2022 Feb 26, 6:13am
AmericanKulak
2022 Feb 26, 6:13am
Whatever the Media pushes, is what's bad for America.
I've learned my lesson.
Until I have solid reason to believe otherwise, Putin must win.
I just read a NYT article where they "Explained" that "Putin lived in history" where national borders and security concerns mattered, rather than globaloney UN International law bullshit that has been used to start every stupid intervention and get us much of our $30T in debt in 20 years.
They don't want people getting the notion that controlling borders and having security concerns normal to any national state should be a thing.
Instead, we should have porous borders flooded by refugees and be part of a globalist revolving door network of NGOs and International organizations like WHO, WTO, and UN. Justified by goopy goobleygook about Human Rights which used to mean the right not to be put in a Gulag or shot, but now means the right to have your transgender surgery paid by the state and pushing LGBTQ+ and being forced to take Experimental Treatments for the benefit of humanity.
Putin must win.
Not because I love him, and not because Zelenskyy or the average Ukrainian is a bad person, but because the Globalists need a clear defeat openly and quickly. Not a 10-20 year slog forgotten like Afghanistan, but an in your grill whooping.
Down with the NWO, Up with The Treaty of Westpfalia
I've learned my lesson.
Until I have solid reason to believe otherwise, Putin must win.
I just read a NYT article where they "Explained" that "Putin lived in history" where national borders and security concerns mattered, rather than globaloney UN International law bullshit that has been used to start every stupid intervention and get us much of our $30T in debt in 20 years.
They don't want people getting the notion that controlling borders and having security concerns normal to any national state should be a thing.
Instead, we should have porous borders flooded by refugees and be part of a globalist revolving door network of NGOs and International organizations like WHO, WTO, and UN. Justified by goopy goobleygook about Human Rights which used to mean the right not to be put in a Gulag or shot, but now means the right to have your transgender surgery paid by the state and pushing LGBTQ+ and being forced to take Experimental Treatments for the benefit of humanity.
Putin must win.
Not because I love him, and not because Zelenskyy or the average Ukrainian is a bad person, but because the Globalists need a clear defeat openly and quickly. Not a 10-20 year slog forgotten like Afghanistan, but an in your grill whooping.
Down with the NWO, Up with The Treaty of Westpfalia
181
Tenpoundbass
2022 Feb 26, 6:39am
Tenpoundbass
2022 Feb 26, 6:39am
Prague isn't helping, I don't think they understand the dynamics that are in play here in the first place.
Al_Sharpton_for_President says
Al_Sharpton_for_President says
Prague
184
Ceffer
2022 Feb 26, 7:26am
Ceffer
2022 Feb 26, 7:26am
AmericanKulak says
LOL! Russia has cultivated a bumper crop of hatred due to past communism and activities, for which they are paying the price now.
However when the NWO, the WEF and the Swiss Octagon decided to turn their cannons on the people of the Western world, corrupted our own country and decided 14 out of 15 of everybody were to die so that they could prevail in some science fiction fantasy of overlording enslavement, they gave Russia a hall pass.
Russia is a uniquely evil country in the Dark Woods.
If you don't approach Russia like ancient Romans approached the Dank Dark Forest of the Teutonics aorund 30BC, you are a fool.
All Russians do is plot evil against Europe.
LOL! Russia has cultivated a bumper crop of hatred due to past communism and activities, for which they are paying the price now.
However when the NWO, the WEF and the Swiss Octagon decided to turn their cannons on the people of the Western world, corrupted our own country and decided 14 out of 15 of everybody were to die so that they could prevail in some science fiction fantasy of overlording enslavement, they gave Russia a hall pass.
185
HeadSet
2022 Feb 26, 7:33am
HeadSet
2022 Feb 26, 7:33am
Al_Sharpton_for_President says
Notice the Russian flag flying from that building. Unless that is the Russian embassy, it appears not al Estonians are anti-Russian.
Estonia
Notice the Russian flag flying from that building. Unless that is the Russian embassy, it appears not al Estonians are anti-Russian.
186
Al_Sharpton_for_President
2022 Feb 26, 7:35am
Al_Sharpton_for_President
2022 Feb 26, 7:35am
HeadSet says
https://brewminate.com/countering-russian-disinformation-the-baltic-nations-way/?source=patrick.net
Unless that is the Russian embassy,It is the embassy.
https://brewminate.com/countering-russian-disinformation-the-baltic-nations-way/?source=patrick.net
188
Ceffer
2022 Feb 26, 7:53am
Ceffer
2022 Feb 26, 7:53am
Soros has spoken, and we know how much the Wicked Witch of the West and the Demon Subverter of Civilization can be trusted:
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