patrick.net

Patrick says

The optimum result for all concerned — including NATO, whether the alliance knows it or not — will be a demilitarized Ukraine, allowed to try being a nation again, though in a much-reduced condition than prior to its becoming a US bear-poking stick. It will be on a short leash within Russia’s sphere-of-influence, where it has, in fact, resided for centuries, and life will go on. Thus, has Russia at considerable cost, had to reestablish the status quo.

That's where his logic falls apart. Precisely because of Russia's considerable cost, that option is most likely off the table now.

Or if it is, it will be in name only: much like Eastern Europe was in the Soviet Era. Nominally independent countries with Russian military bases in them to keep them in line, like Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslavakia in 1968.

Either way...

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

That's where his logic falls apart. Precisely because of Russia's considerable cost, that option is most likely off the table now.

Progress! Russian fluffers are finally beginning to grudgingly admit that Russia has suffered "considerable cost" in their total cockup of an invasion. Despite Ukraine suffering lack of military supplies all winter, Russia has barely gained any ground in the last year to justify the monumental loss of life and material. But any day now - there will be another Blitzkrieg of Kyiv?

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

Or if it is, it will be in name only: much like Eastern Europe was in the Soviet Era. Nominally independent countries with Russian military bases in them to keep them in line, like Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslavakia in 1968.

How did that work out for the USSR? The Iron Curtain bought them a few decades of keeping their Commie slave colonies in line, but the tide is still heading in the other direction and the USSR imploded. The Ukrainian population will be a very unhappy and ungovernable population after suffering through the last 3 years of drunk Russian depravity. Any chance of Russia hanging onto significant Ukrainian land will require massive number of occupation troops that Putin foolishly got killed in the past 3 years.

Just can't see how Ukraine is anything but a massive economic, military and humanitarian catastrophe for Russia.

socal2 says

Russian fluffers are finally beginning to grudgingly admit that Russia has suffered "considerable cost"

Not a Russian Fluffer. And I didn't say otherwise.

socal2 says

Despite Ukraine suffering lack of military supplies all winter, Russia has barely gained any ground in the last year to justify the monumental loss of life and material.

You sure you aren't talking about Ukraine's counter-offensive?

It was quite the BLOODBATH as well as a total strategic defeat.

But hey! If your fantasies about this are even remotely correct, good news!

It means Ukraine doesn't need our help. And NATO can stand up to Russia w/o us! Awesome!

socal2 says

How did that work out for the USSR?

A helluva lot better than it did for Eastern Europe.

Here is a picture if Prague, 1968.

I hear it was quite the BLOODBATH.



socal2 says

Just can't see how Ukraine is anything but a massive economic, military and humanitarian catastrophe for Russia.

Yes. We know. The propaganda kool-aid you've been drinking is pretty damn good! What's that shit called again? Oh right...Bloodbath!. More potent than the shit they had Biden hopped up on during the SOTU, even.

Can an Russian fluffer point to 2 or 3 "gains" Russia has achieved in the past 3 years to justify the monumental cost of Russian life and treasure?

From my side of the ledger, Russia has lost its Naval presence and capacity to blockade anything in the Black Sea, has a couple brand new NATO members on its borders and generally embarrassed itself to the whole world showing how primitive and ineffective their military is trying to subdue their much smaller and weaker next door neighbor. Even Russia's Wagner group has taken a big hit and will likely lose a bunch of their 3rd world customers. Europe and NATO have re-committed to Trump's request to spend at least 3% GDP on defense and Russia has lost massive chunks of their crap-ass military.

On top of that, Russia has lost major gas pipelines to Europe and Ukraine is now attacking their major refineries with cheap drones.
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-oil-drone-strike-threat-ukraine-bombs-1880307

It will take decades for Russia to recoup this "investment".

MOAR winning for Russia!

Clearly - Russia's drunk military embarrassing itself to the whole world in Ukraine has sent a message to the rest of Europe to get in line!

Just imagine how much better Russia (and the world) would be today if Russia decided not to invade Ukraine.

-------------------------------------

In case of a potential conflict with Russia, NATO will gain control not only over the Baltic Sea, but also over the Black Sea

The construction of the largest #NATO base in #Europe has begun in #Romania. The project will include runways, hangars for military aircraft, schools, kindergartens, stores and a hospital. The base will be able to accommodate 10 thousand military personnel with their families.

Romania is located in a strategically important region. This base will allow to create a permanent military structure in close proximity to the war in #Ukraine.

According to the project, the airbase will be able to accommodate almost any type of modern aircraft. The base will be home to fighter jets and bombers.

In case of a potential military conflict with #Russia, the alliance will be able to strike the Russian Black Sea coast and the Caucasus, and will significantly strengthen its position in the Black Sea. The base could also serve as a command center for troop control.
https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1769801479022354616

socal2 says

From my side of the ledger...

We all have heard about your 'ledger.'



And as usual, it has nothing to do with Ukraine's fate as you misconstrue even more than a Trump comment about the auto industry.

socal2 says

Progress! Russian fluffers are finally beginning to grudgingly admit that Russia has suffered "considerable cost" in their total cockup of an invasion. Despite Ukraine suffering lack of military supplies all winter, Russia has barely gained any ground in the last year to justify the monumental loss of life and material. But any day now - there will be another Blitzkrieg of Kyiv?

Russia isn't ever going to attack Kiev. They are going to destroy the entire Ukrainian military, and waste billions of dollars of US military weaponry, and ultimately cost the United States as much money as possible for starting this stupid fucking war.

If they do it right, make it humiliating enough for the fucking Neocons, MAYBE they won't start another FUCKING war that has nothing to do with the US and has no purpose in being fought. MAYBE.

Victoria Nuland is gone, but I think she's just oozed her way into some bullshit "think tank" that will be cheer leading our next stupid fucking unnecessary, wasteful, expensive, conflict that does nothing other than further harm our nation.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

And as usual, it has nothing to do with Ukraine's fate as you misconstrue even more than a Trump comment about the auto industry.

Socal hasn't been wrong on this. I dislike his take on Tesla, but we've got to be honest, Russia looks worse from this. I still don't think a person here has said Ukraine would definitively win the war. They're winning the optics whether you like it or not. Russia looks like the bad guy. Ukraine was already a bad guy with the corruption. This is that part of the world. Won't change after this. In the moment Russia has looked like shit. Not really debatable as "supposedly" the 2nd best military in the world. They just lost a fuck ton of gear to a bunch of other corrupt drunks.

WookieMan says

They're winning the optics whether you like it or not.

Optics? 100's of thousands of dead for optics? 100's of billions of dollars squandered for optics?

Money and blood well spent, I guess.

Russia has given up trying to co-operate with the West and isn't going to bother with Europe anymore, they will happily work with China and India though unless Europe comes crawling back. If they want energy, THEY can pay for the pipelines, I doubt Russia is going to do that again.

richwicks says

Optics? 100's of thousands of dead for optics? 100's of billions of dollars squandered for optics?

How many Russians do you think died? And why would you believe the numbers? I don't care about Ukraine. This should have been easy for Russia. They've lost major naval vessels in the Black Sea in a war that had nothing to do with water. Russia has been stopped, no advanced and were embarrassed at the beginning of this whole ordeal. This isn't even a discussion.

Do I side with a anyone? Nope. I'm pointing out actually facts. Russia has likely lost as many troops and mercenaries as Ukraine. Otherwise they'd have gained ground. They haven't. This is WWI type trench warfare. Russians are dying as much as Ukrainians. So let me know who's winning? Russia looks weak.

richwicks says

Money and blood well spent, I guess.

You are talking about Russia - right?

All the Russia fluffers have been CONFIDENTALY predicting a total Russian victory since the start of the war. Doesn't matter that they can't define what a victory looks like. But 3 years later with hundreds of thousands of dead and wounded Russians - Russia occupies less Ukrainian territory today than they did at the start of 2022. Russia's navy, helicopter and jet fleet is a fraction of what it once was. Not to mention the loss of so many senior Russian officers.

As for Ukraine, it is the most human thing in the world to defend one's homeland from being invaded by a hostile neighbor. Despite being outnumbered and outspent, Ukraine has basically frozen Russia's invasion into a bloody stalemate. Who would have predicted that 3 years ago?

socal2 says

Who would have predicted that 3 years ago?

Definitely NOT McGregor. That guy is a dip shit. This conflict will last a decade outside of a miracle. I know we have a few eastern europeans. We're stubborn as fuck. I'm 2nd gen removed but have the traits. Know native eastern euros. This will go on for quite some time.

socal2 says

Russia has lost its Naval presence and capacity to blockade anything in the Black Sea, h

Once again:

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

So? Ukraine is a LAND war.

L-A-N-D

Was it the Soviet Navy that defeated Germany in WW2?

WookieMan says

Socal hasn't been wrong on this

Yes he has.

Completely wrong. And frankly, so have you..

Especially the parts where you are totally shilling Ukey/Deep State Propaganda as 'facts'.

FUCK RUSSIA! Who cares about them or their fate? This is ALL about Ukraine. About NATO. About the US. About the idiots 'in charge'. About my fucking tax dollars



And don't respond with the bullshit "but we agree with you...it's just that Russia."

Because 1) you don't agree with me. Not with any credibility can you at this point, anyway. So just stop with the fucking lies, ok? and 2) 'it's just Russia' is why I just laid down the rhetorical law in (1).

You handed me your balls on that particular platter by hitching to socal2's Wagon of Non-credibility:

socal2 says

Ukraine, despite what you think - is now one of the most experienced and most heavily armed militaries in Europe

Hahaha. Yeah, at dying or being crippled from Russian Arty fire. Or experienced in paying bribes to avoid bring killed/crippled by said arty fire.

Or this other example of socal2 'brilliance' which you've hitched your wagon to:

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

socal2 says

Russia has lost its Naval presence and capacity to blockade anything in the Black Sea, h

Once again:

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

So? Ukraine is a LAND war.

L-A-N-D

Was it the Soviet Navy that defeated Germany in WW2?

socal2 says

Russia occupies less Ukrainian territory today than they did at the start of 2022.

Love how you constantly redefine invasion troops as 'occupying' in order to fulfill your fantasies.

Occupation occurs AFTER the invading part ends and the invaders have taken control...none of which applies to 2022 Ukraine except for Eastern Ukraine.

@Wookieman do you STILL want to hitch your wagon to socal2's bullshit? He deliberate distorts definitions to make disingenuous crap like this ^^^ ALL THE TIME.

He does this with his Tesla Fluffing as well. You have caught him out on it, I believe.

But heyyyyyy!

socal2 says

richwicks says

Money and blood well spent, I guess.

You are talking about Russia - right?

All the Russia fluffers have been CONFIDENTALY predicting a total Russian victory since the start of the war. Doesn't matter that they can't define what a victory looks like. But 3 years later with hundreds of thousands of dead and wounded Russians - Russia occupies less Ukrainian territory today than they did at the start of 2022. Russia's navy, helicopter and jet fleet is a fraction of what it once was. Not to mention the loss of so many senior Russian officers.

As for Ukraine, it is the most human thing in the world to defend one's homeland from being invaded by a hostile neighbor. Despite being outnumbered and outspent, Ukraine has basically frozen Russia's invasion into a bloody stalemate. Who would have predicted that 3 years ago?

AGAIN

WookieMan says

How many Russians do you think died? And why would you believe the numbers?

He will never answer this.

All we get is autistic screeching "It's a land war!" "Ukraine is fucked!" "Nuland!" "Global homo Nazis!"

socal2 says

He will never answer this.

I've answered. But socal2 deliberately lies by saying that I don't. Because he can't deal with the answer.

And now by extension, @WookieMan does too. He hitched his wagon to socal2's.

socal2 says

All we get is autistic screeching "It's a land war!" "Ukraine is fucked!" "Nuland!" "Global homo Nazis!"

See? 'Land war' is a perfect example. By pointing that obvious out, he looks like a idiot. And he can't counter it, either. And you would think he'd stop bringing up The Great Battles of the Black Sea bullshit he constantly posts as a result. But now...Ukey Nazi Fluffers have to gotta fluff, after all!

^^^^ @WookieMan you signed up for this shit, remember?

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

See? 'Land war' is a perfect example. By pointing that obvious out, he looks like a idiot. And he can't counter it, either. And you would think he'd stop bringing up The Great Battles of the Black Sea bullshit he constantly posts as a result. But now...Ukey Nazi Fluffers have to gotta fluff, after all!

Man - if it was just a "LAND WAR" would have thought the drunk Russians would have conquered more land by now, instead of having less land under their control from 3 years ago.

Remember all the retards 3 years ago CONFIDENTLY claiming that Europe and Ukraine is going to starve to death because the Russian navy was blockading Ukraine's grain exports? It was the same retards who were confidently claiming that Europe would freeze to death too.

A significant portion of Ukraine's economy is tied up with agriculture providing nearly half of Ukraine's export income. Majority of the grain is shipped through the Black Sea.

But yeah - Putin fluffers can keep pretending that the Russian Navy failing 3 years on to control Ukraine's shipping and major economic source of income doesn't matter at all......

socal2 says

A significant portion of Ukraine's economy is tied up with agriculture providing nearly half of Ukraine's export income. Majority of the grain is shipped through the Black Sea.

SO FUCKING WHAT?

Grain exports are not going to save Ukraine. WTF?

Grain exports are not going to supply arms to Ukey soldiers that don't exist.

Grain exports aren't going to do shit.

Are just being a troll or did you get ran over your head from your Tesla driving in self-driving mode?

Or..are you naturally stupid? [strike out as it violates Patrick.net rules]

WookieMan says

How many Russians do you think died? And why would you believe the numbers?

Less than 100,000, mostly mercenaries and people trading prison time for fighting. And why would I believe the numbers? Well, I don't know what they are, but I will in time. I know my government shamelessly lies and our media is bullshit propaganda, I know that for certain, so I guarantee any number they produce is a GROSS EXAGGERATION.

WookieMan says

I don't care about Ukraine. This should have been easy for Russia.

Russia isn't struggling. They aren't attempting to win. This is a proxy war between the US and Russia.

You can't fucking understand that. This war will go on for at least 2 more years is my bet. At least.

The point of a proxy war is to exhaust the other side, not to win. Vietnam was a proxy war, Afghanistan was a proxy war. Syria may be a proxy war at this point.

The last proxy war the US lost definitely was Vietnam, and the result of that was the US went bankrupt, we left the gold standard because of Federal Reserve lied about its assets and couldn't repay it's debt in gold, because they're fucking liars. So we restructured the debt. Today, we have nothing backing the dollar at all. So we may be in the territory of a fiat hyper-inflationary collapse.

WookieMan says

They've lost major naval vessels in the Black Sea in a war that had nothing to do with water. Russia has been stopped, no advanced and were embarrassed at the beginning of this whole ordeal. This isn't even a discussion.

Who cares? Navies are obsolete now except for submarines. They are useful as aircraft carriers to bomb the fuck out of 3rd world nations on the other side of the planet, but only the US does that. It's 1,500 miles from Moscow to Damascus. The only useful thing left in the navy of ANY country in a REAL WAR (that means we actually are fighting somebody our own size, not the little kid in a wheel chair that has cerebral palsy), are submarines, because they are stealthy. In a real war, every fucking air craft carrier and warship will be on the bottom of the ocean in 2 weeks, maybe 1. That's how fucking easy they are to sink. How are you going to stop an missile flying at you at 600 MPH? Shoot it out of the air? Torpedos are in play, drones, you name it. This isn't 1945 anymore. That was before supersonic aircraft. Sinking a ship is easy today.

WookieMan says

Do I side with a anyone? Nope. I'm pointing out actually facts. Russia has likely lost as many troops and mercenaries as Ukraine. Otherwise they'd have gained ground. They haven't. This is WWI type trench warfare. Russians are dying as much as Ukrainians. So let me know who's winning? Russia looks weak.

What is the United States getting out of this?

If you can't answer this question, you're just another stupid shit cheering on another stupid war no matter how much money it fucking costs or how many people it fucking kills because a bunch of fucking traitors in our fucking state department started another fucking war that's fucking us.

In about 4 months, our national debt goes up by 1 trillion dollars. We can't afford to waste money on frivolous bullshit like a war that doesn't matter in any conceivable way for the United States. Just because that limp wristed faggot Lindsey Graham and that blood soaked cunt Nikki Haley is told to say it's important, doesn't make it important.

The outcome of this war doesn't matter, and it was known anyhow at the start. All it's done is ruin relations with the United States. NOBODY in Eastern Europe is going to work with the US government after they FUCKING DESTROYED Ukraine. If Europe ever gets the traitors OUT of power, they will turn their back on the US, and they would be smart to do so. All this has done is hurt EVERYBODY involved. Yeah, Russia will have a Pyrrhic victory, the US will have a COMPLETE loss.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

Grain exports are not going to save Ukraine. WTF?

Right - as if Ukraine maintaining one of its biggest export corridors and source of income during a war of survival is no big deal to Russian fluffers? Forgot - "ITS A LAND WAR!"

Why did Russia lose it's Black Fleet Navy and embarrass itself to the whole world trying to blockade Ukraine's grain exports if it doesn't matter?

Wasn't the whole point of Russia invading Crimea to give it better access to the Black Sea?

Laughable watching how far you guys are willing to move the goal posts to rosy up Russia's massive military embarrassment.

socal2 says

Right - as if Ukraine maintaining one of its biggest export corridors and source of income during a war of survival is no big deal to Russian fluffers? Forgot - "ITS A LAND WAR!"

Why did Russia lose it's Black Fleet Navy and embarrass itself to the whole world trying to blockade Ukraine's grain exports if it doesn't matter?

Wasn't the whole point of Russia invading Crimea to give it better access to the Black Sea?

Laughable watching how far you guys are willing to move the goal posts to rosy up Russia's massive military embarrassment.

Jesus fucking christ!

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

Jesus fucking christ!

Funny - as you appear to be the most emotionally Patneter invested in Russia "winning".

You have 3 years on this site CONFIDENTLY predicting the imminent collapse of Ukraine only to be proven spectacularly wrong year after year as evident of Russia having less Ukrainian land under their control today than 3 years ago despite throwing hundreds of thousands of Russian conscripts into the meat grinder for no gain.

Not only were you guys spectacularly wrong about Russia succeeding, you guys were wrong about Ukraine and Europe running out energy, running out of food or Putin widening the war with nukes.

Whereas, guys like me have simply said we don't think Russia can "win" after failing their main war goals in the first month of the invasion failing to topple Kiev.

Regardless of what you think, there are still plenty of Ukrainians willing to defend their country from Russian invaders. How long do you think Putin can keep feeding the Russian meat grinder for a losing cause before his rule is at risk?

socal2 says

richwicks says

Money and blood well spent, I guess.

You are talking about Russia - right?

All the Russia fluffers have been CONFIDENTALY predicting a total Russian victory since the start of the war.

I haven't. I was HOPING that Russia would do a decapitation and not go into a proxy war, but that was just hope.

See? I wrote this on Dec 29, 11:38pm, 2021 - Russia invaded on February 24, 2022

richwicks says

Who cares. The cabal that runs the United States is just killing all of us with these stupid wars. Russia will fight a war of attrition and just allow the US to continue to bankrupt the entire nation for something 99.99% of the US population has no stake in. The Middle East has been doing this for 2 decades now.

I bet if it came to war in Ukraine, Russia wouldn't even cut off their energy exports to Europe although the US might sabotage these pipelines and then attempt to blame Russia.

The United States is causing this conflict, not Russia. It's just another example of the insanity that runs this nation. The US has bombed 7 nations over the last 20 years - has this in any way benefited this nation?

This was ridiculously easy to predict. This war is to cut off Russian energy exports to put Europe under the thumb of the US which is in part what all these wars in the Middle East were about, because easier to steal their energy than to ship US energy across the ocean. If I know this, Russia does, and since the US did blow up their energy export ability, literally, and energy is a fungible commodity and China really needs energy as does India, they are just restructuring with India and China, and will ignore Europe as the cocksuckers that run this nation ruin Europe.

I never get credit for being right.

socal2 says

Funny - as you appear to be the most emotionally Patneter invested in Russia "winning".

You post a lot of bullshit even when your previous chunks of posted bullshit has been exposed.

#troll

socal2 says

Not only were you guys spectacularly wrong about Russia succeeding

Seems Russia is definitely succeeding.

Ukraine is totally fucked.

socal2 says

there are still plenty of Ukrainians willing to defend their country from Russian invaders.

socal2 says

How long do you think Putin can keep feeding the Russian meat grinder for a losing cause before his rule is at risk?

Considering how that is all made up bullshit on your part, no risk.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

Nominally independent countries with Russian military bases in them to keep them in line, like Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslavakia in 1968.

It would be interesting to see if Germany and Japan are independent enough to close all US military bases in those countries.

I bet the US would not allow them to do that no matter what, proving that they are mere vassal states even now.

Patrick says

I bet the US would not allow them to do that no matter what, proving that they are mere vassal states even now.

The Japanese want our bases. The Germans need them because of the $$$$ they infuse into the local economies around them (Okinawa depends on this moola also).

I'm just asking whether Japan and Germany would be allowed to remove US bases.

I'm guessing they have no choice and are thus not really independent countries.

Patrick says

I'm just asking whether Japan and Germany would be allowed to remove US bases.

I'm guessing they have no choice and are thus not really independent countries.

They can. In the end those bases can only exist there with native support.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

Patrick says

I'm just asking whether Japan and Germany would be allowed to remove US bases.

I'm guessing they have no choice and are thus not really independent countries.

They can. In the end those bases can only exist there with native support.

No they can't. There was a severe rape incident in Okinawa by US servicemen, and Japan wanted the base out, and Okinawans sure did. It's still there.

It's like Iraq is a dumbocrazy now. They voted for the US to get the fuck out, and the US is still there.

Japan and Germany are vassal states of the United States.

It appears that the Ministry of Propaganda has grown tired of 'reporting' on the Ukraine/Russian war.

What America needs is an exciting new war with lots and lots of killing and action. That'll get the true patriots to fly the flag on their homes, along with the flag of the country that we are providing aid to fight an evil country like Russia.

I don't seem to see any more of those Ukraine flags flying everywhere, but maybe that's just in my area. What about where you live?

RayAmerica says

It appears that the Ministry of Propaganda has grown tired of 'reporting' on the Ukraine/Russian war.

As the election draws near we'll probably hear less and less, too.

But don't worry! According to socal2, Ukeys have a kick ass army and the Russians are losing!

RayAmerica says

It appears that the Ministry of Propaganda has grown tired of 'reporting' on the Ukraine/Russian war.

This is pattern.

The US starts a war or eggs one one, they lose the war, and once it's fucked, the propaganda machine stops reporting on it, so when the disaster is unveiled, nobody bothers to look up what happened.

Libya is a mess, Afghanistan is a mess, Syria is still ongoing but it will be a mess, Iraq is a mess, and Yemen and Somalia were always that way, but they will be worse off - now it's Ukraine's turn.

RayAmerica says

I don't seem to see any more of those Ukraine flags flying everywhere,

This is stolen from this site, but this is precisely what happened, what always happens. Foreign nations are stupid to work with the United States.

RayAmerica says

I don't seem to see any more of those Ukraine flags flying everywhere, but maybe that's just in my area. What about where you live?

@RayAmerica I don't see them in my area either, except maybe on a random house that still has its BLM decorations up too.