patrick.net

Because it's a tankless endeavor.

They're good.

I've installed a tankless one (gas). Been 2 years now, so far so good. But it's only been two years so I don't know what kind of issues I can have with it. Last month our gas bill was $14. Of course faggot Biden is trying to fix that by increasing natural gas prices with this war shit.

The thing about tank heaters that I did like is that they are simple as shit, it's easy to fix them. I'm not a plumber, but I can fix just about anything with them, too easy to troubleshoot. But tankless once, I have no idea where to even start. That's my only worry. Otherwise I like it, less space, works well for the whole house.

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says

Last month our gas bill was $14. Of course faggot Biden is trying to fix that by increasing natural gas prices with this war shit.

So even if natgas prices double you'll be looking at what, $28 per month bill? And you whine all over Patnet over THAT? Cheeses Crust! Reading you it feels like you're bleeding THOUSANDS per day... And I thought I was cheap, LOL.

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says

I've installed a tankless one (gas). Been 2 years now, so far so good.

I'm curious if you know the size of your unit (was it around 8+gpm, or did you go for the largest unit available at 199k BTUs)?

I was an exchange student in Germany and tankless heaters were the norm there.

The Germans are definitely into efficiency, and I also liked that you don't waste water waiting for it to get hot.

An interesting spin on a "tankless water heater" - if you goto a poor neighborhood in the tropics, you'll see many do without a water heater. Instead, they use a 110v plug in water heater that just screws in behind your showerhead. The water goes in and gets heated as it passes through internal heating coils. Granted, they dont work too well, as 110v * 15A just cant put out enough energy to raise the water temp too much. They usually get used in combo with a water saver shower head; not to save water, but by restricting the water flow rate, the water temp can be raised a few more degrees.

It's a little unsettling though to have a power cord going into your shower, especially knowing that its basically a hairdryer with water going through it. But theyre dirt cheap, and work well enough. A big part of this though is that the tropics have fairly warm tap water, so the heater doesnt need to elevate the temp too much.

I looked into it a decade ago. I was warned that if I were getting permits then the gas line all the way back to the meter would have to be leak tested, which would probably fail (given that it's iron and 50+ years old). In my case that would entail a tricky re-routing since the original pipe went under the concrete garage floor (before it was poured). I also didn't want to convert to gas cooktop, since I love induction for that application. Even here in crazy California, my monthly gas bill is as low as $10 in the summer, so that pilot light isn't costing me all that much.

Eric Holder says

Reading you it feels like you're bleeding THOUSANDS per day... And I thought I was cheap, LOL.

Pity us poor Californians. Our biggest monthly expense is the water bill....

Ok - hijacking the thread somewhat: Has anyone put in a water heater recirculation pump? Did ya save money?

I'm opting for the model without the recirculation pump. Hoping I don't regret it. Will be located below the master bedroom and don't want to hear it going off at all hours. Less parts to break, and then you don't require a thermal expansion tank. That said, our place is two stories and a relatively small footprint (though the kitchen will be the longest reach...) May put a bucket in the shower to catch the initial cold cold run in the pipes and use for flushing.

Hircus says

An interesting spin on a "tankless water heater" - if you goto a poor neighborhood in the tropics, you'll see many do without a water heater. Instead, they use a 110v plug in water heater that just screws in behind your showerhead. The water goes in and gets heated as it passes through internal heating coils. Granted, they dont work too well, as 110v * 15A just cant put out enough energy to raise the water temp too much. They usually get used in combo with a water saver shower head; not to save water, but by restricting the water flow rate, the water temp can be raised a few more degrees.

It's a little unsettling though to have a power cord going into your shower, especially knowing that its basically a hairdryer with water going through it. But theyre dirt cheap, and work well enough. A big part of this though is that the tropics have fairly warm tap water, so the heater doesnt need to elevate the temp too much.

I have had one for many years and they work great...Instant hot water...the ones we have heat the water inside the shower head. BTW, the water gets hot as hell if you put it on high.

EBGuy says

Getting a natural gas fired (while it is still legal in California) tankless water heater installed in a couple of days. Tell me why I'm making a big mistake.

IMHO, tankless are great for heating water but can be tricky to get the temp correct for showering. It's the opposite of intuitive...the slower the water flows thru it, the hotter it gets but if you turn the flow down too much it shuts off the heat. OTOH, with the old tank style, you balance the temp with hot and cold. Just sayin'.

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says

But it's only been two years so I don't know what kind of issues I can have with it.

Batteries for the igniter go dead

Eric Holder says

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says

Last month our gas bill was $14. Of course faggot Biden is trying to fix that by increasing natural gas prices with this war shit.

So even if natgas prices double you'll be looking at what, $28 per month bill? And you whine all over Patnet over THAT? Cheeses Crust! Reading you it feels like you're bleeding THOUSANDS per day... And I thought I was cheap, LOL.

it all adds up man. look at it from my perspective. I'm spending $300 more on gas every month now, I drive a lot. Add inflation on every little thing, I'm not rich, it starts adding up. I don't know what natural gas will end up at, double, triple, 10x... I don't know.

EBGuy says

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says

I've installed a tankless one (gas). Been 2 years now, so far so good.

I'm curious if you know the size of your unit (was it around 8+gpm, or did you go for the largest unit available at 199k BTUs)?

10 gpm. overkill for the house, but I wasn't sure on the usage. Plumber convinced me on the Noritz brand, said those are the reliable once. Just had to run a thicker gas pipe to it, so they used the flexible one, they sell those at plumbing stores out here. If you get a smaller one, you might not need the volume.

DooDahMan says

Since Natural Gas is/has taken over for a lot of electric generation - you know where those increased costs of generation are going and who is going to pay for them don't you ?

Tesla owners?

Hircus says

A big part of this though is that the tropics have fairly warm tap water, so the heater doesnt need to elevate the temp too much.

Really warm. Hit the sauna and wanted a cold shower after in Mexico. The water was for sure above 75º coming out the tap on full "cold" setting. Living in the midwest our tap water is cold as fuck if you want that. With no freezing, I'd be surprised if they buried water lines much more than a 1'.

WookieMan says

A big part of this though is that the tropics have fairly warm tap water, so the heater doesnt need to elevate the temp too much.

A Australian guy told me nobody has a water heater in northern Australia. The problem they have is cooling the water.

rocketjoe79 says

Has anyone put in a water heater recirculation pump? Did ya save money?

Recirculation pump means you save a gallon or 2 of water but your hot water heater works harder (because the water is always hot in the water line) and you have an additional water pump that runs. I'm guessing that water pump electricity usage is negligible, but that wasted few gallons of water is very cheap compared to the additional natural gas. High water bills are usually for people that water their yards or people who don't realize the bill is mostly for water infrastructure and sewage, which are large, flat-rate fees.

If our California betters get their way natural gas will be phased out for homes. That may already be the case for new homes. See: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/california-is-closing-the-door-to-gas-in-new-homes/?source=patrick.net

Anyway, we're trading in relatively inexpensive natural gas heat for electric heat with our special hand-crafted, non-GMO, organic, gluten-free electrons. Get ready for summer pricing during the hours of 4 to 9 at 47¢ kW/hr. That's a small price to pay for "carbon neutral" (not counting the manufacture of the solar panels and concrete and steel windmill parts using coal-fired Chinese factories).

SunnyvaleCA says

Recirculation pump means you save a gallon or 2 of water but your hot water heater works harder (because the water is always hot in the water line) and you have an additional water pump that runs.

The newer Navien's have a built in buffer tank as well as a recirculation pump. They have enough intelligence that they can analyze your habits and then run the pump when (eg. shortly before AM showers) needed -- or so goes the theory. Efficiency drops from 97% to 96% when you go from the "dumb" S-series to the "smart" A-series of tankless water heaters from Navien. You will save though, by not having to dump the cold water in the hot lines.

WookieMan says

Hircus says

A big part of this though is that the tropics have fairly warm tap water, so the heater doesnt need to elevate the temp too much.

Really warm. Hit the sauna and wanted a cold shower after in Mexico. The water was for sure above 75º coming out the tap on full "cold" setting. Living in the midwest our tap water is cold as fuck if you want that. With no freezing, I'd be surprised if they buried water lines much more than a 1'.

Consider that many homes and businesses have a water tank on the roof in the sun called a tinaco.....that sun heated water feeds the water lines.

I heat just enough water in a kettle on a gas stove each morning for my cup of coffee.

Is that cheaper or more expensive than microwaving the water to boiling? I'm guessing it's cheaper to use the gas stove because energy is lost when converting coal or gas to electricity to run the microwave.

Patrick says

I heat just enough water in a kettle on a gas stove each morning for my cup of coffee.

Is that cheaper or more expensive than microwaving the water to boiling? I'm guessing it's cheaper to use the gas stove because energy is lost when converting coal or gas to electricity to run the microwave.

I'd say a microwave is far more energy efficient as it uses a strong but short lived current to heat up the water (and other) molecules of the food/drinks from the inside, whereas a stove wastes a lot of energy in heat. Unless you re-use that heat of course. Not sure how much the initial conversion costs, but I would say not enough to make up for it. But of course I'm not a biologist

Am I the only one who microwaves my tea? Teabag in a glass beer mug for two minutes.

mell says

Patrick says

I heat just enough water in a kettle on a gas stove each morning for my cup of coffee.

Is that cheaper or more expensive than microwaving the water to boiling? I'm guessing it's cheaper to use the gas stove because energy is lost when converting coal or gas to electricity to run the microwave.

I'd say a microwave is far more energy efficient as it uses a strong but short lived current to heat up the water (and other) molecules of the food/drinks from the inside, whereas a stove wastes a lot of energy in heat. Unless you re-use that heat of course. Not sure how much the initial conversion costs, but I would say not enough to make up for it. But of course I'm not a biologist

If you're heating your home still, you're better off using gas. All the heat that isn't absorbed by the water heats the air, and reduces energy consumption to heat the home.

Electrical heating is, by far, the most inefficient way to heat your home. Ask anybody with electrical heating about their heating bill.