patrick.net

proxy war between russia and west. its not land grab.

liberal world order vs russia

WineHorror1 says

Do you believe that Russia simply invaded for the purpose of taking land? No other reasons?

yes, please listen to Putler clip I posted above

richwicks says

That's interesting, what's your national background, meaning where were you at 8 years old, what nation?

can't tell, would dox myself but in one of former Soviet republics. @Patrick knows as I met him :)

AmericanKulak says

Biden's sending another $1B for Ukraine,

Trump was 1st who sent arms to Ukraine BTW, and I posted interview where he said he would give F-22's to Ukraine. This is a fact which other side of debate seems to ignore. I am not sure what is Trump's reasoning - perhaps he wants to scare Russians if he wins in 2024

Bd6r says

Patrick knows as I met him :)

True!

WineHorror1 says

Do you believe that Russia simply invaded for the purpose of taking land? No other reasons? If so, that sounds absurd.

Not only it doesn't sound absurd, it's the only explanation that makes sense. Indeed, "land" here should be understood as a geopolitical construct. I.e. "land", "water", "population", "technological capacities", etc, etc, etc - everything that comes with it.

No one in the right mind believes in the "liberation from Nazis" narrative, now that the "liberated" fight the Orcs tooth and nail. No one in the right mind believes in the "protecting Russian-speaking people" narrative, now that Russian-speaking people of Ukraine fight the Orcs just the same. No one in the right mind believes in the "protection against NATO expansion" narrative, now that 1) it's clear even to the most dumb-witted that NATO is not in a hurry to embrace Ukraine 2) NATO is in fact expanding as a result of this war, and nobody cares.

This is fully consistent with Russia's history of expansion through hybrid wars - first Pridnestrovie/Moldova, then Georgia, now Ukraine. Ukraine is a much larger scale operation than the others, and the preparation for it was in the works for a long time. Crimea and Lugansk/Donetsk are some of the better known episodes of that preparation.

i don’t believe anything our faggot media says.

they lied to us, abused us, abusing our children by pushing gay on them. i rather not support gay. and they supposedly support Ukraine. i have nothing bad for Ukraine, feel bad for them even, but utterly hate everyone who supports them.

mostly reader says

My point was super simple, albeit two-fold:
- with proper help, Ukrainians will kick Rashist asses.

What would this "proper help" be? The US is going to dump billions into Ukraine, I predict they will spent at least $200 billion before this is over. They've already sent Ukraine more "aid" money than Russia's yearly budget for their military. Whatever "help" the US offers, it won't be enough is my suspicion.

We'll see.

I don't think the US cares about Ukraine winning this conflict. They primarily expect that Russia will be hurt by this war and will prolong it as much as possible and will do whatever it takes to make it continue. The USSR did this with us in Vietnam and I think Russia is fully prepared for this war to go on for years.

mostly reader says

- that help is wise investment for all players because, if not granted, some years from now Buchas will be happening in their backyards.

Russia hasn't shown itself to be at all expansionist since the USSR dissolved so I doubt this. The US has been screaming (falsely as aways) about "Russian aggression" for 20 years, while they hypocritically bombed 7 nations. I've heard estimates (who knows if they are true?) that in that time 20 million people have been killed over that time but take that with a grain of salt. The US has zero credibility so I'd be quite shocked if these habitual and compulsive liars were right this one time. They never are.

All my government has done for 20 years has been to lie to me, continually, brazenly, obviously. Some of the ridiculous bullshit propaganda coming from our "news" and federal government already have been exposed.

mostly reader says

Why you decided to respond to that simple point by another irrelevant "US bad!" tantrum is beyond me.

Because for months you have apparently swallowed every load of shit the US propaganda machine has said about this war. It's not "US bad!" - every government is bad. It's "US Federal Government total fucking liars", and they are lying about this as well. To what extent I don't know, but if the last 20 years is any guide, the extent is as much as they can lie about it.

The statements, and predictions made by my government are 99% false when it comes to anything regarding foreign policy or relations or entanglements, or at least have been in the past. I can only see in hindsight how full of shit they were and it's too early for me, at least, to tell at this point. I'm actually giving my criminal syndicate the benefit of the doubt at this point - not because I believe I should though, just an attempt to be objective.

mostly reader says

No one in the right mind believes in the "protection against NATO expansion" narrative, now that 1) it's clear even to the most dumb-witted that NATO is not in a hurry to embrace Ukraine 2) NATO is in fact expanding as a result of this war, and nobody cares.

Then Zelenskyy should state that Ukraine doesn't have any intention of joining NATO and do this at the UN and that kicks out one of Putin's justification for the war.

If Ukraine REALLY wants to fuck with Russia, Zelenskyy should just unconditionally agree to all of Russia's original requests and terms, unconditionally if you're correct. In this way, Russia suddenly has no justification for continuing the war and if it continues regardless, well Zelenskyy is no worse off, and Putin is clearly the bad guy who is doing what the US is doing - making a false justification for an unjustified war.

Syria did this. They "gave up their chemical weapons". Iraq did this, they "ended their weapons of mass destruction program" and "allowed inspectors". Libya did this, they "abandoned their WMD program". It just doesn't make a difference, the US attacks anyhow. This is why the US doesn't have any credibility any more. The US makes conditions, conditions are met, it doesn't change the outcome. The US makes excuses for war, but they never publicly announce what the objectives of the war are.

Bd6r says

richwicks says

That's interesting, what's your national background, meaning where were you at 8 years old, what nation?

can't tell, would dox myself but in one of former Soviet republics. @Patrick knows as I met him :)

Oh man.

Here's where I grew up:

https://goo.gl/maps/NYLYENESZWTZwbhu6

And I'm using my real name.

Jesus, you think I'm going to track you down? I don't believe you do.

Harrisville, back when I was a kid, had a K-12 school system that had a total of 300 students. You can literally go to that town, ask 5 people, and one of them would know me. I live in Sunnyvale California now.

richwicks says

can't tell, would dox myself but in one of former Soviet republics.

You mean Columbia University in New York City?

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

i don’t believe anything our faggot media says.

they lied to us, abused us

Standard Operating Procedure.

The US government lies to the public, provokes war, and when there's finally a response, the public is shocked, and we're all told "Day h8 us 4 Я freedumb"

They did this with Pearl Harbor. The US had an oil embargo on Japan and was constantly provoking them. The US public was never informed so when Pearl Harbor came around, the public was shocked and outraged. We have better information now, we're bypassing the US media. This is why we have censorship.

I keep pointing out, we really don't have any serious foreign enemies to the Constitution, we have them at home. Remember, "a well-informed citizenry, being necessary to the liberty of a free state" - well we aren't a free state, but we're starting to threaten to become one..

Ceffer says

You mean Columbia University in New York City?

That is a current Soviet republic, not former one :)

richwicks says

Russia hasn't shown itself to be at all expansionist since the USSR dissolved so I doubt this.

This, right here. Statements like this are the reason why you are a laughing stock. At first I wanted to say "why you have no credibility", but this one goes above and beyond.

Just in this thread I called Pridnestrovie/Moldova and Georgia (did you not notice?) Just in this thread we were talking about military operations that they were carrying out in Ukraine and in Czech republic for years (did you not notice?)

Hybrid wars and installing puppet governments became Russia's signature move since USSR dissolved. That's despite having lousy economy, not being able to build a car, having no social net, and raising retirement age to above life expectancy. This demonstrates priorities. If they were stronger, I think that instead of hybrid wars and puppet governments they'd be trying to alter borders. Oh, wait, they were already! Crimea! (did you not notice?)

Most Russian speakers here who watch Russian TV will confirm: national exclusivity and superiority is the current theme of the day. So terms "Rashists" and "Putler" are not just a figure of speech. This kind of propaganda for internal audience is ground work for what's apparently being planned. I suspect that similar was happening in Germany mid-30s.

"Russia hasn't shown itself to be at all expansionist"? You don't care about credibility at all, do you?

richwicks says

Then Zelenskyy should state that Ukraine doesn't have any intention of joining NATO and do this at the UN and that kicks out one of Putin's justification for the war.

There are no "then"s. You shouldn't be telling Zelensky what to do, and neither should be Putler. No country should be dictating another independent country it's terms for non-assault. "He should've bended backwards" is not a valid argument, especially when further events demonstrate it patently wrong. It's your opinion, and a ridiculous one. It doesn't add anything to the conversation. You resort to it because your can't produce a valid counter-argument.

In light of WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED (Ukraine is not joining NATO, two other Russia's neighbors are joining NATO and nobody cares) that the NATO excuse was a misdirection should be obvious even to the dumb-witted. I repeat myself here, but that's the trouble with talking to the dumb-witted, you have to repeat yourself on occasion.

Shaman says

Losing Zelenskyy’s government is not a loss for Ukraine or the world.

Apparently losing Ukraine is a huge loss to the deep state.

Or is it? How many more billions are being laundered now as opposed to when Hunter worked at Burisma? And what is up with the Ukrainian Bio-Labs?

mostly reader says

Says who? With proper help Ukrainians will break their arms and kick out their teeth. Adequate military help from the west is THE CHEAPEST way to nip it in the bud. Emphasis on adequate, which is not yet happening.

What would be adequate? More weapons? No fly zone? Bombing Russia itself? The 101st airborne on the ground?

I don't think we should go to war with Russia.

richwicks says

They lied about why they attacked Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Not to mention Vietnam. The US has never helped Americans by participating in foreign wars since Korea, and even that is questionable.

Before Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24, there were signs that NATO and Ukraine were “barking at the gates of Russia.” Even the Pope has admitted the West was eager for war profits and that the conflict was “either provoked or not prevented.”

Onvacation says

What would be adequate?

More weapons. Apparently, Ukrainians are quite capable of standing up for themselves. They can keep Russians at stalemate even as underdogs (within reason), and turn to counter offense where there's parity.

BTW, I understand that US intelligence didn't see it coming. That was yet another blooper in their long line of bloopers of the last years. After they underestimated Taliban and overestimated Afghan government troops, they went on to underestimate Ukrainians and overestimate Russians.

West is getting a sweet deal: supplying weapons is way cheaper than paying with lives.

mostly reader says

West is getting a sweet deal: supplying weapons is way cheaper than paying with lives.

I just don't see losing Ukraine as an existential threat to America any more than losing Afghanistan was. We should first protect OUR borders, aid OUR people, and then we can see about sending treasure overseas. But I think Ukraine is more about covering up the deep state's crimes.

WineHorror1 says

Before Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24, there were signs that NATO and Ukraine were “barking at the gates of Russia.” Even the Pope has admitted the West was eager for war profits and that the conflict was “either provoked or not prevented.”

The only value those "signs" and "admissions" have at this point is serving as examples of how someone could be wrong. They have no other merit after reality hit if reality doesn't agree with them. Now, reality HAS hit, and it doesn't agree. NATO now has a legitimate excuse to obliterate Russia if it ever wanted to. Obviously, OBVIOUSLY it doesn't want to. It has a super valid reason to join Ukraine if it ever planned. It obviously, OBVIOUSLY never did. That's hard cold reality.

Clinging to those signs is almost as if you lost money in stock market, but keep bringing up positive signals that lead you to the decision to buy at the top. That's what dumber people do. Smarter folks revisit their decision process instead.

Onvacation says

mostly reader says

West is getting a sweet deal: supplying weapons is way cheaper than paying with lives.

I just don't see losing Ukraine as an existential threat to America any more than losing Afghanistan was. We should first protect OUR borders, aid OUR people, and then we can see about sending treasure overseas. But I think Ukraine is more about covering up the deep state's crimes.

My opinion may be different, but I meant Europe there. It's almost a pattern: the closer a country is to Russia, the more they are willing to help Ukraine. There's a good reason for that.

When do the investigations on high level American politicians and their relatives financial dealings in Ukraine start?

Are there really US bioweapon labs in Ukraine?

And why the fuck are we still in NATO?

If the Soviets tried to roll through Poland again, much less Germany, they would be stuck in a quagmire of atrocities and possible nuclear conflict. No one wants that, except maybe those WEF globalist psychopaths.

Onvacation says

except maybe those WEF globalist psychopaths.

....and Putin is one of those.

Onvacation says

When do the investigations on high level American politicians and their relatives financial dealings in Ukraine start?

No idea, I'm not Attorney General. Let's not single out Ukraine here though.

Onvacation says

Are there really US bioweapon labs in Ukraine?

You can't say with confidence that there are, and you can't say with confidence that there aren't. Anyone who says they are confident and isn't privvy to the entire scope of insider info is full of shit.

However, I made a prediction when the story broke out. I predicted that outside of peopletalk and virtual boards this will be a big nothingburger. I also gave my reasons for that prediction: Russians started crying "wolf" before there was reasonable time to tell apart a bio lab from bioweapon lab. I.e. they cried "wolf" without proof. So I dismissed it.

So far the prediction is holding up.

Onvacation says

And why the fuck are we still in NATO?

LOL. Seriously. This question would've been SOOOO much more persuasive before Feb. 24

mostly reader says

Just in this thread I called Pridnestrovie/Moldova and Georgia (did you not notice?)

Haha.

Georgia is still a nation. It began a conflict by attacking S. Ossetia when Mikheil Saakashvili was president. He's an American intelligence asset, obviously, having been educated at Columbia University then George Washington University and very suspiciously "the International Institute of Human Rights".

Saakashvili started a war with South Ossetia, which is also still a nation, and S. Ossetia asked for Russian assistance, which they got. Once Russia entered, the war was over in less than 24 hours, with Georgian troops thrown out. Russia left immediately. US press characterized this as an invasion by Russia, and claimed Russia was "taking over S. Ossetia" which was obviously untrue. I remember Duh Bush lying about it.

Anyhow shortly after the war Saakashvili started, he then lost his presidential bid, was charged with multiple crimes by the Georgian government, fled to Ukraine, ended up being "Ukrainian" suddenly (they don't have an extradition treaty at all), promoted the Ukrainian "Revolution of Dignity" - i.e. the CIA coup there, was awarded by being made the mayor of Odessa by Petro Poroshenko (because no authentic Ukrainian was up for the job I guess), fucked up THAT job and was eventually stripped of his Ukrainian citizenship.

This is why I don't take YOU seriously.

You write complete bullshit "What about Georgia????" - what about it? Russia didn't take it over. You write bullshit like this, and you immediately place yourself in the "duh, I have no fucking idea what is going on" folder in my mind, and there is no point in investigating anything else you say. I don't waste too much time debunking Sean Hannity or Rachael Maddow - I don't waste any time doing that for you, because I assume - correctly that you're full of shit and any claim you make is either misleading, or just outright false.

Moldova is still a nation as well.

Oh look at how expansionist Russia is...

I just can't take you seriously when you demonstrate egregious dishonesty in your first statement and consistently repeat false statements. You might as well be Rachael Maddow screaming at me that I should take the accusations of Russian Collusion seriously. You, are not a trustworthy person, and shouldn't be treated seriously.

richwicks says

South Ossetia, which is also still a nation

Part of Georgia, not a separate nation. Similar to Chechnya in Russia. Either attacking Chechnya by Russians was wrong and so was Georgians attacking S. Ossetia, or both were justified.

Bd6r says

richwicks says

South Ossetia, which is also still a nation

Part of Georgia, not a separate nation.

Yeah, they don't have a right to self-determination, a fundamental human right, according to the hypocrites of the United Nations.

Georgia did to South Ossetia what Western Ukraine did to the Donbass.

Succession, withdrawal, is a human right. It's an obvious human right. I am full support of any state of the United States withdrawing from the Union since the US Federal government won't enforce their own laws and is openly criminal in refusing to enforce them. Why should I make an exception for Western Ukraine, Crimea, or S. Ossetia? Only if I was a complete hypocrite.

Just because former republics of the USSR are controlled by the mafia which the population despises, and that these breakaways would rather rejoin with Russia rather than put up with this shit, doesn't make Russia expansionist. This is obvious. I know they may be jumping out of the pan into the fire, but it's their right. They could be making a mistake, even a very serious one, but it's their mistake to make. The US shouldn't have any involvement.

And when the breakaway republic has left a CIA controlled puppet stooge criminal syndicate government, and has rejected it and would rather rejoin the (less?) criminal government of Russia doesn't make Russia expansionist.

The US screams about Putin being a bloodthirsty murdering tyrant intent on rebuilding the failed disaster of the USSR is ridiculous and hollow at this point. When George W. Bush is hanged for murdering 800,000 Iraqis over a lie, you wake me up. Putin might very well be a monster, but he's a cockroach compared to our last asshole presidents - those are true monsters who lie at every possible opportunity for their murders.

Our criminal syndicate government has been claiming this ENTIRE TIME that Ukraine "will win". Let's see. Perhaps they can, but if they do, this will be the first goddamned time my government was "right". They just lie, constantly, stupidly, irritatingly, and I have to listen to assholes like you that don't realize this. The whole war from the US' perspective was to weaken the Russian military and to do money laundering.

Clown world isn't restricted to just our culture. This is our vice president:



That's our fucking Vice President. Nobody in power has a fucking clue what is going on. I, an idiot engineer, has more knowledge about what is going on in this world than our stupid fucking "leaders" and our "intelligence agencies" are filled with go-along get along cunts. Anybody in the intelligence agencies back in 2005 that tried to warn Bush that there wasn't a weapons of mass destruction program in Iraq was FIRED. Incompetence is promoted. We're fucked because of this. Competence has nothing to do with rising to power in US government. Don't know who controls this, but they aren't working for this nation.

richwicks says

Georgia did to South Ossetia what Western Ukraine did to the Donbass.

And what Russia did to Chechnya to a much, much greater extent. Furthermore, by that logic Iraq war was also justified as Saddam was gassing Kurds and marsh Arabs. Or is it one logic for Russia, other for the rest of world?

mostly reader says

WineHorror1 says

Before Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24, there were signs that NATO and Ukraine were “barking at the gates of Russia.” Even the Pope has admitted the West was eager for war profits and that the conflict was “either provoked or not prevented.”

The only value those "signs" and "admissions" have at this point is serving as examples of how someone could be wrong. They have no other merit after reality hit if reality doesn't agree with them. Now, reality HAS hit, and it doesn't agree. NATO now has a legitimate excuse to obliterate Russia if it ever wanted to. Obviously, OBVIOUSLY it doesn't want to. It has a super valid reason to join Ukraine if it ever planned. It obviously, OBVIOUSLY never did. That's hard cold reality.

Clinging to those signs is almost as if you lost money in stock market, but keep bringing up po...

And you're basing this on one little video snippet, correct?

richwicks says

Georgia is still a nation. It began a conflict by attacking S. Ossetia when Mikheil Saakashvili was president.

I thought that only an uneducated doofus or a propaganda troll could write something like this... and I was right!

Because only a doofus or a propaganda troll can deny that Russia led hybrid war in Abkhazia and South Ossetia for years. Only a doofus or a propaganda troll may deny that what you called "Saakashvili started a war" was only a development in that hybrid war, which was started by Russia and went on for some years.

It's an ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL signature move, also performed in Pridnestrovie: Rashists send their forces, create a region of instability, and then use it to stir the shit. Hybrid warfare. The difference is that Moldova just ate it and made installing puppet government in Transnistria easy. I assume that you sputter when you say "Saakashvili" because he didn't do the same.

It's an ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL signature move, also performed in East Ukraine: Rashists send their forces, create a region of instability, and then use it to stir the shit. Hybrid warfare.

Are you using "it's still a nation" as a standard? Here's a challenge for you then: find an example of a nation that stopped being such as a result of US actions. Or shut up about "bad US". Forever.

But you won't. When it comes to US, you move goal post and no longer talk about changing borders. Instead, you talk about installing puppet governments (the opposite of what you do when you try to counter the point about Russia expansionism). You make shit up in process, and completely change burden of proof, but that's a different story. I'm just focusing on you changing goal post for now, as one of the indicators of your dishonesty.

WineHorror1 says

And you're basing this on one little video snippet, correct?

I don't know what video snippet you are talking about. What I wrote is common knowledge.

Bd6r says

Onvacation says

except maybe those WEF globalist psychopaths.

....and Putin is one of those.

Is Biden one of them? What about Zelensky? Are there two poles of globalism duking it out like back when it was communism vs capitalism? Or is the WEF a monolithic organization that contains all the world's leaders, I meant rulers, against we, the people?

Do you really think Putin is part of the WEF?

mostly reader says

Onvacation says

And why the fuck are we still in NATO?

LOL. Seriously. This question would've been SOOOO much more persuasive before Feb. 24

Do you think Russia would take over Europe if we did not support NATO?

I don't know what is going on in Ukraine. I don't care about Ukraine as much as I care about USA.

If Ukraine is so important, why haven't we found out what Hunter got paid for at Burisma?

So many questions. So few answers.

Onvacation says

Do you think Russia would take over Europe if we did not support NATO?

I do have an opinion about their intent (which is expansion). I don't have an opinion about the end result. Too many variables.

Onvacation says

Is Biden one of them?

yes, and you misspelled Bidet
Onvacation says

What about Zelensky?

too low rank to be of any consequence, so irrelevant. He does not make high-level decisions

Onvacation says

Do you really think Putin is part of the WEF?

Yes I do. Vaccinations were going on in Russia, gubbermint digital moneys, attack Ukraine at the time when it was most convenient for our leaders (to forget covid failures), etc
https://www.thelibertybeacon.com/putin-and-the-wef-cause-for-concern-are-we-being-played-yet-again/

And then when one digs just a little bit one finds Putin thoroughly on board with Klaus Schwab’s World Economic Forum, whose coterie of wealthy maniacs have been so busy – through the infiltration of governments with their stooges, the manufacturer of economic ruin and social chaos and so forth – trying to “reset” the world into a high-tech feudalism.

One has to ask whether the Russian government is yet another subverted front for the self-appointed, know-best-what-is-good-for-you, aspiring herdsmen of the globalist crime syndicate and its less-than-benign designs for the human race. And whether the Ukraine is yet more manufactured agony staged between governments who, had they been individuals, would have been locked up as craven psychopaths.

They are not even pretending they are embarrassed anymore:



https://twitter.com/mfa_russia/status/1561963305320779776?s=21&t=xe3sYp870gKOwGnW3_yTaQ

PS. This is about Molotov-Ribbentrop pact for these who skipped history in school.