patrick.net

Shaman says

Losing Zelenskyy’s government is not a loss for Ukraine or the world.

Apparently losing Ukraine is a huge loss to the deep state.

Or is it? How many more billions are being laundered now as opposed to when Hunter worked at Burisma? And what is up with the Ukrainian Bio-Labs?

mostly reader says

Says who? With proper help Ukrainians will break their arms and kick out their teeth. Adequate military help from the west is THE CHEAPEST way to nip it in the bud. Emphasis on adequate, which is not yet happening.

What would be adequate? More weapons? No fly zone? Bombing Russia itself? The 101st airborne on the ground?

I don't think we should go to war with Russia.

richwicks says

They lied about why they attacked Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Not to mention Vietnam. The US has never helped Americans by participating in foreign wars since Korea, and even that is questionable.

Before Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24, there were signs that NATO and Ukraine were “barking at the gates of Russia.” Even the Pope has admitted the West was eager for war profits and that the conflict was “either provoked or not prevented.”

Onvacation says

What would be adequate?

More weapons. Apparently, Ukrainians are quite capable of standing up for themselves. They can keep Russians at stalemate even as underdogs (within reason), and turn to counter offense where there's parity.

BTW, I understand that US intelligence didn't see it coming. That was yet another blooper in their long line of bloopers of the last years. After they underestimated Taliban and overestimated Afghan government troops, they went on to underestimate Ukrainians and overestimate Russians.

West is getting a sweet deal: supplying weapons is way cheaper than paying with lives.

mostly reader says

West is getting a sweet deal: supplying weapons is way cheaper than paying with lives.

I just don't see losing Ukraine as an existential threat to America any more than losing Afghanistan was. We should first protect OUR borders, aid OUR people, and then we can see about sending treasure overseas. But I think Ukraine is more about covering up the deep state's crimes.

WineHorror1 says

Before Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24, there were signs that NATO and Ukraine were “barking at the gates of Russia.” Even the Pope has admitted the West was eager for war profits and that the conflict was “either provoked or not prevented.”

The only value those "signs" and "admissions" have at this point is serving as examples of how someone could be wrong. They have no other merit after reality hit if reality doesn't agree with them. Now, reality HAS hit, and it doesn't agree. NATO now has a legitimate excuse to obliterate Russia if it ever wanted to. Obviously, OBVIOUSLY it doesn't want to. It has a super valid reason to join Ukraine if it ever planned. It obviously, OBVIOUSLY never did. That's hard cold reality.

Clinging to those signs is almost as if you lost money in stock market, but keep bringing up positive signals that lead you to the decision to buy at the top. That's what dumber people do. Smarter folks revisit their decision process instead.

Onvacation says

mostly reader says

West is getting a sweet deal: supplying weapons is way cheaper than paying with lives.

I just don't see losing Ukraine as an existential threat to America any more than losing Afghanistan was. We should first protect OUR borders, aid OUR people, and then we can see about sending treasure overseas. But I think Ukraine is more about covering up the deep state's crimes.

My opinion may be different, but I meant Europe there. It's almost a pattern: the closer a country is to Russia, the more they are willing to help Ukraine. There's a good reason for that.

When do the investigations on high level American politicians and their relatives financial dealings in Ukraine start?

Are there really US bioweapon labs in Ukraine?

And why the fuck are we still in NATO?

If the Soviets tried to roll through Poland again, much less Germany, they would be stuck in a quagmire of atrocities and possible nuclear conflict. No one wants that, except maybe those WEF globalist psychopaths.

Onvacation says

except maybe those WEF globalist psychopaths.

....and Putin is one of those.

Onvacation says

When do the investigations on high level American politicians and their relatives financial dealings in Ukraine start?

No idea, I'm not Attorney General. Let's not single out Ukraine here though.

Onvacation says

Are there really US bioweapon labs in Ukraine?

You can't say with confidence that there are, and you can't say with confidence that there aren't. Anyone who says they are confident and isn't privvy to the entire scope of insider info is full of shit.

However, I made a prediction when the story broke out. I predicted that outside of peopletalk and virtual boards this will be a big nothingburger. I also gave my reasons for that prediction: Russians started crying "wolf" before there was reasonable time to tell apart a bio lab from bioweapon lab. I.e. they cried "wolf" without proof. So I dismissed it.

So far the prediction is holding up.

Onvacation says

And why the fuck are we still in NATO?

LOL. Seriously. This question would've been SOOOO much more persuasive before Feb. 24

mostly reader says

Just in this thread I called Pridnestrovie/Moldova and Georgia (did you not notice?)

Haha.

Georgia is still a nation. It began a conflict by attacking S. Ossetia when Mikheil Saakashvili was president. He's an American intelligence asset, obviously, having been educated at Columbia University then George Washington University and very suspiciously "the International Institute of Human Rights".

Saakashvili started a war with South Ossetia, which is also still a nation, and S. Ossetia asked for Russian assistance, which they got. Once Russia entered, the war was over in less than 24 hours, with Georgian troops thrown out. Russia left immediately. US press characterized this as an invasion by Russia, and claimed Russia was "taking over S. Ossetia" which was obviously untrue. I remember Duh Bush lying about it.

Anyhow shortly after the war Saakashvili started, he then lost his presidential bid, was charged with multiple crimes by the Georgian government, fled to Ukraine, ended up being "Ukrainian" suddenly (they don't have an extradition treaty at all), promoted the Ukrainian "Revolution of Dignity" - i.e. the CIA coup there, was awarded by being made the mayor of Odessa by Petro Poroshenko (because no authentic Ukrainian was up for the job I guess), fucked up THAT job and was eventually stripped of his Ukrainian citizenship.

This is why I don't take YOU seriously.

You write complete bullshit "What about Georgia????" - what about it? Russia didn't take it over. You write bullshit like this, and you immediately place yourself in the "duh, I have no fucking idea what is going on" folder in my mind, and there is no point in investigating anything else you say. I don't waste too much time debunking Sean Hannity or Rachael Maddow - I don't waste any time doing that for you, because I assume - correctly that you're full of shit and any claim you make is either misleading, or just outright false.

Moldova is still a nation as well.

Oh look at how expansionist Russia is...

I just can't take you seriously when you demonstrate egregious dishonesty in your first statement and consistently repeat false statements. You might as well be Rachael Maddow screaming at me that I should take the accusations of Russian Collusion seriously. You, are not a trustworthy person, and shouldn't be treated seriously.

richwicks says

South Ossetia, which is also still a nation

Part of Georgia, not a separate nation. Similar to Chechnya in Russia. Either attacking Chechnya by Russians was wrong and so was Georgians attacking S. Ossetia, or both were justified.

Bd6r says

richwicks says

South Ossetia, which is also still a nation

Part of Georgia, not a separate nation.

Yeah, they don't have a right to self-determination, a fundamental human right, according to the hypocrites of the United Nations.

Georgia did to South Ossetia what Western Ukraine did to the Donbass.

Succession, withdrawal, is a human right. It's an obvious human right. I am full support of any state of the United States withdrawing from the Union since the US Federal government won't enforce their own laws and is openly criminal in refusing to enforce them. Why should I make an exception for Western Ukraine, Crimea, or S. Ossetia? Only if I was a complete hypocrite.

Just because former republics of the USSR are controlled by the mafia which the population despises, and that these breakaways would rather rejoin with Russia rather than put up with this shit, doesn't make Russia expansionist. This is obvious. I know they may be jumping out of the pan into the fire, but it's their right. They could be making a mistake, even a very serious one, but it's their mistake to make. The US shouldn't have any involvement.

And when the breakaway republic has left a CIA controlled puppet stooge criminal syndicate government, and has rejected it and would rather rejoin the (less?) criminal government of Russia doesn't make Russia expansionist.

The US screams about Putin being a bloodthirsty murdering tyrant intent on rebuilding the failed disaster of the USSR is ridiculous and hollow at this point. When George W. Bush is hanged for murdering 800,000 Iraqis over a lie, you wake me up. Putin might very well be a monster, but he's a cockroach compared to our last asshole presidents - those are true monsters who lie at every possible opportunity for their murders.

Our criminal syndicate government has been claiming this ENTIRE TIME that Ukraine "will win". Let's see. Perhaps they can, but if they do, this will be the first goddamned time my government was "right". They just lie, constantly, stupidly, irritatingly, and I have to listen to assholes like you that don't realize this. The whole war from the US' perspective was to weaken the Russian military and to do money laundering.

Clown world isn't restricted to just our culture. This is our vice president:



That's our fucking Vice President. Nobody in power has a fucking clue what is going on. I, an idiot engineer, has more knowledge about what is going on in this world than our stupid fucking "leaders" and our "intelligence agencies" are filled with go-along get along cunts. Anybody in the intelligence agencies back in 2005 that tried to warn Bush that there wasn't a weapons of mass destruction program in Iraq was FIRED. Incompetence is promoted. We're fucked because of this. Competence has nothing to do with rising to power in US government. Don't know who controls this, but they aren't working for this nation.

richwicks says

Georgia did to South Ossetia what Western Ukraine did to the Donbass.

And what Russia did to Chechnya to a much, much greater extent. Furthermore, by that logic Iraq war was also justified as Saddam was gassing Kurds and marsh Arabs. Or is it one logic for Russia, other for the rest of world?

mostly reader says

WineHorror1 says

Before Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24, there were signs that NATO and Ukraine were “barking at the gates of Russia.” Even the Pope has admitted the West was eager for war profits and that the conflict was “either provoked or not prevented.”

The only value those "signs" and "admissions" have at this point is serving as examples of how someone could be wrong. They have no other merit after reality hit if reality doesn't agree with them. Now, reality HAS hit, and it doesn't agree. NATO now has a legitimate excuse to obliterate Russia if it ever wanted to. Obviously, OBVIOUSLY it doesn't want to. It has a super valid reason to join Ukraine if it ever planned. It obviously, OBVIOUSLY never did. That's hard cold reality.

Clinging to those signs is almost as if you lost money in stock market, but keep bringing up po...

And you're basing this on one little video snippet, correct?

richwicks says

Georgia is still a nation. It began a conflict by attacking S. Ossetia when Mikheil Saakashvili was president.

I thought that only an uneducated doofus or a propaganda troll could write something like this... and I was right!

Because only a doofus or a propaganda troll can deny that Russia led hybrid war in Abkhazia and South Ossetia for years. Only a doofus or a propaganda troll may deny that what you called "Saakashvili started a war" was only a development in that hybrid war, which was started by Russia and went on for some years.

It's an ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL signature move, also performed in Pridnestrovie: Rashists send their forces, create a region of instability, and then use it to stir the shit. Hybrid warfare. The difference is that Moldova just ate it and made installing puppet government in Transnistria easy. I assume that you sputter when you say "Saakashvili" because he didn't do the same.

It's an ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL signature move, also performed in East Ukraine: Rashists send their forces, create a region of instability, and then use it to stir the shit. Hybrid warfare.

Are you using "it's still a nation" as a standard? Here's a challenge for you then: find an example of a nation that stopped being such as a result of US actions. Or shut up about "bad US". Forever.

But you won't. When it comes to US, you move goal post and no longer talk about changing borders. Instead, you talk about installing puppet governments (the opposite of what you do when you try to counter the point about Russia expansionism). You make shit up in process, and completely change burden of proof, but that's a different story. I'm just focusing on you changing goal post for now, as one of the indicators of your dishonesty.

WineHorror1 says

And you're basing this on one little video snippet, correct?

I don't know what video snippet you are talking about. What I wrote is common knowledge.

Bd6r says

Onvacation says

except maybe those WEF globalist psychopaths.

....and Putin is one of those.

Is Biden one of them? What about Zelensky? Are there two poles of globalism duking it out like back when it was communism vs capitalism? Or is the WEF a monolithic organization that contains all the world's leaders, I meant rulers, against we, the people?

Do you really think Putin is part of the WEF?

mostly reader says

Onvacation says

And why the fuck are we still in NATO?

LOL. Seriously. This question would've been SOOOO much more persuasive before Feb. 24

Do you think Russia would take over Europe if we did not support NATO?

I don't know what is going on in Ukraine. I don't care about Ukraine as much as I care about USA.

If Ukraine is so important, why haven't we found out what Hunter got paid for at Burisma?

So many questions. So few answers.

Onvacation says

Do you think Russia would take over Europe if we did not support NATO?

I do have an opinion about their intent (which is expansion). I don't have an opinion about the end result. Too many variables.

Onvacation says

Is Biden one of them?

yes, and you misspelled Bidet
Onvacation says

What about Zelensky?

too low rank to be of any consequence, so irrelevant. He does not make high-level decisions

Onvacation says

Do you really think Putin is part of the WEF?

Yes I do. Vaccinations were going on in Russia, gubbermint digital moneys, attack Ukraine at the time when it was most convenient for our leaders (to forget covid failures), etc
https://www.thelibertybeacon.com/putin-and-the-wef-cause-for-concern-are-we-being-played-yet-again/

And then when one digs just a little bit one finds Putin thoroughly on board with Klaus Schwab’s World Economic Forum, whose coterie of wealthy maniacs have been so busy – through the infiltration of governments with their stooges, the manufacturer of economic ruin and social chaos and so forth – trying to “reset” the world into a high-tech feudalism.

One has to ask whether the Russian government is yet another subverted front for the self-appointed, know-best-what-is-good-for-you, aspiring herdsmen of the globalist crime syndicate and its less-than-benign designs for the human race. And whether the Ukraine is yet more manufactured agony staged between governments who, had they been individuals, would have been locked up as craven psychopaths.

They are not even pretending they are embarrassed anymore:



https://twitter.com/mfa_russia/status/1561963305320779776?s=21&t=xe3sYp870gKOwGnW3_yTaQ

PS. This is about Molotov-Ribbentrop pact for these who skipped history in school.

Figures: https://patrick.net/post/1347156/2022-08-25-russian-mp-ein-volk-ein-reich-ein-f

Lebensraum, bitchez!

Bd6r says

Onvacation says

Do you really think Putin is part of the WEF?

Yes I do.

That leads to the conclusion that the Ukraine war is a fraudulent distraction.

Further proof it wasn't about NATO (as if any was needed at this point):

https://mobile.twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1563364428350980096

RWSGFY says

Further proof it wasn't about NATO (as if any was needed at this point):

Of course it isn't, now.

Ukraine could have prevented the war by stripping Russia's excuses for it, but they wouldn't, so Russia won't only get what they demanded, they will get whatever the fuck they want at this point.

Russia isn't free to act like the United States. Saddam Hussein disarmed, he allowed inspections for 10 years, and when he was fully disarmed the US invaded Iraq claiming that Hussein didn't hold up his side of the agreement. Russia wouldn't have been able to do that with Ukraine.

He didn't exactly say Russia would have gone into Ukraine without NATO provocation. He was stating that after the fact of going into Ukraine because of NATO provocation, Russia will not stop the campaign until it achieves its goals even with NATO backtracking. A bit different.

Onvacation says

That leads to the conclusion that the Ukraine war is a fraudulent distraction.

I give that possibility about 40-50 pct chance. Ukraine war was started at exact time when COVID!!! coverage in media would have to shift to miserable failures of our officials which killed an order of magnitude more people than COVID!!! So, in order for Schwab Fauci and their buddies to avoid being guillotined, they politely asked their buddy Vlad to start a distraction aka war in center of Europe. I cant be 100 pct sure because that implies a lot of competence though
@Onvacation

Onvacation says

Do you really think Putin is part of the WEF?

Putin was one of the WEF "Young Global Leaders", or so I have read.

Patrick says

Putin was one of the WEF "Young Global Leaders", or so I have read.

Putin is too old to have been in that program. I think this idea is based on a video where the comically-cliched-Bond-villain Schwab mentions Putin among several names of others that are 'graduates'.

They are now singing completely different tune, confirming that the whole NATO-NAZI-Bandera BS was just propaganda in preparation for easy annexation into which they were "lured by non-action of Ukrainian military in 2014". Enjoy the whining:

(This is a known Kremlin-connected Telegram channel)

"Krymnash" was the first stage of the "Ukrainian trap" designed for us. The old principle worked: give a little so that you can get everything later.

Now it's already obvious.

I look at everything that is happening in Ukraine and clearly see that we have been set up with a classic strategic trap. It was obvious, but we, nevertheless, climbed into it ourselves.

Why did emotions win over reason?

We were strongly motivated to do this back in 2014.

The essence of the "Ukrainian trap" is simple. All the expert assessments of the Western military, leaked to the media, kept repeating: Ukraine will not hold out against Russia even for three weeks. We picked up this misinformation every time and through our media convinced ourselves of this nonsense.

Russian troops entered Ukraine, fully sharing this illusion: an easy walk ahead and flowers on the armor. They even brought dress uniforms for the forthcoming parade in Kyiv. This is how not very far-sighted chiefs prepare personnel, when they are sure that there will be no fierce hostilities, we will limit ourselves to police functions. And only a fool can be sure that there will be no resistance on foreign territory.

But it was not there. Our fighters were met with fierce fire and Jevelins. Then we were allowed to get bogged down in viscous battles, and then quickly formed a pro-Ukrainian coalition of 54 leading economically developed countries. Enormous military and economic aid went to Ukraine.

The balance of forces and resources changes daily. The potential of Ukraine due to the supply of high-tech and high-precision weapons is growing, and ours, due to natural losses at the front, sparingly speaking, is not increasing. We are replacing the retired most trained soldiers with mobilized, poorly motivated, and sometimes even demotivated by forced mobilization, practically untrained civilians.
Mentally.

As a result, we have constructed a situation where it is difficult to win, and it is impossible to leave without losing face and collapsing the internal political vertical. That's it, the trap is slammed!

What formed the image of an easy victory in the minds of the military-political leaders?

Enchanting return of the Crimea. The "designers" of the trap had calculated everything and taken it into account down to the molecules. Was there a colossal support for our little green men by the Crimeans? Was. Was the motivation of people to vote for joining the Russian Federation high? Excessively!

And most importantly - there was no military resistance. Generally! Why? The Ukrainian military received an order: leave without a fight!
And they obeyed the order and left without opposition.
It is this and many other things that have created the illusion that the whole of Ukraine will react in the same way to Russia's forceful entry into its territory.
It must be admitted that in 2014 there were much more pro-Russian Ukrainian citizens than now.

However, time was lost, and propaganda on both sides pitted the two fraternal peoples for 8 years. Russophobia and Ukrainophobia have become the main content of TV channels. The results were stunning, mutual hatred flowed from television screens in a dirty stream around the clock.

And what is the result?

In Ukraine, Russia has been made into an insane monster. In the minds of Russians Ukraine was made into a caricature where everybody was a Nazi and Bandera, who dream of cutting us, even Ukrainian Jews, including Zelensky himself.

All this propaganda work has formed intransigence and worked against the SVO, since our state information resource, through the pumping of Russophobia, motivated Ukrainian citizens to desperate resistance: victory or death. It's time to be honest: with our anti-Ukrainian propaganda, we have done more to turn Ukraine into anti-Russia than our strategic competitors.

The work done could not but affect the behavior of the fighters on the battlefield. Being pitted, both armies fight furiously. To death!

And then there was the bonus. The attack of Ramzan Akhmatovich Kadyrov, behind whom the Chechen national army controlled only by him, and Yevgeny Viktorovich Prigozhin, who has a huge military resource, against the Ministry of Defense, the General Staff, the FSB, the Ministry of Internal Affairs - can be transformed into a second front, but already in our rear!

An ideal situation has developed for a third party - a strategic planner, when it is HE who largely controls the development of the situation on the fields of military and political battles and can keep the fire on fire at his own discretion, throwing firewood with support from one side or the other. Go bad: he sits on the sidelines, and, removing the rent of the war, watches for his own pleasure how the Orthodox are cut, destroying their material and spiritual values, destroying statehood and economies.

There is no power way out of this trap. It seems that the Kremlin has already understood this. Hence insistent invitations for Kyiv to enter negotiations. But will the masters of strategic design allow the parties to agree if the main levers of influence on the situation are in their hands?..

Alexander Zhilin, military observer

(g-translated)

He (Putin) boasted that the annexations had made the Sea of Azov - which is bordered by south-east Ukraine and south-west Russia - an "internal sea" of Russia, adding that this was an aspiration of Russian Tsar Peter the Great. President Putin has compared himself to the 17th and 18th Century ruler before.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63893316

Not a word about "Nazis", "biolabs", "Satan", "demilitarization" , "NATO" or any of that previous bullshit anymore.

Eric Holder says

Not a word about "Nazis", "biolabs", "Satan", "demilitarization" , "NATO" or any of that previous bullshit anymore.

Putin calls it how he sees it.

Over the past year, Vladimir Putin has compared himself to empire-building eighteenth century Russian Czar Peter the Great, and has attempted to annex entire regions of Ukraine while declaring that he is “returning historically Russian lands.” A recently leaked document purportedly detailing Russian plans to absorb neighboring Belarus now provides further insight into the imperial ambitions that are also driving the invasion of Ukraine.

Allegedly produced by Putin’s Presidential Administration with input from the Russian intelligence services and armed forces, the 17-page internal strategy paper was made public in early 2023 by an international consortium of journalists. It serves as a comprehensive guide to the unofficial annexation of Belarus via a combination of economic, military, political, and social measures, with the objective of full absorption into a so-called “Union State” with Russia by 2030.

The Russian takeover of Belarus as outlined in the document appears to closely mirror Moscow’s plans for Ukraine, albeit by less direct means. “Russia’s goals with regard to Belarus are the same as with Ukraine. Only in Belarus, Russia relies on coercion rather than war. Its end goal is still wholesale incorporation,” commented Michael Carpenter, the US Ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, following publication of the leaked document.

The strategy document for Belarus envisions the comprehensive russification of Belarusian society along with a sharp reduction in the influence of nationalist and pro-Western forces, which are viewed by Russia as virtually indistinguishable in relation to both Belarus and Ukraine. The Belarusian political, financial, business, and education systems would be fully integrated into Russia, with a network of pro-Russian media, NGOs, and cultural institutions established to aid this integration process.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/putins-plan-for-a-new-russian-empire-includes-both-ukraine-and-belarus/

Eric Holder says

Not a word about "Nazis", "biolabs", "Satan", "demilitarization" , "NATO" or any of that previous bullshit anymore.

Exactly as Putin is a master of manipulation and gaslighting.

Even go back to when Bush jr was President and Putin's foreign ministry stated that Russia still recognized the former Soviet states like Estonia and Ukraine as being part of the Russian Federation.

That is why the Georgia invasion happened toward the end of Bush jr's administration.

I understand as in a way, it is Russia trying to defend its existence AND legacy. By annexing territory and populations, it become more relevant by becoming larger.

Russia understandably does not want to shrink in power and size.

Also victories and seizures improve Russia physique and morale, as well as bring in some economic rewards or spoils.

.

ad says

Also victories and seizures improve Russia physique and morale, as well as bring in some economic rewards or spoils.

At a heavy cost though. Russians are at the point of realizing they didn't bring the ladder to the hole they dug. It's taken 4 generations, but they're running out of men thinking they can just get into conflicts of attrition.

It sucks losing anyone in war like we did in the ME, but we really didn't lose that many soldiers. 5,429 over 20 years between Iraq and Afghanistan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war

But Putin is estimated to have lost 60k men so far. https://www.businessinsider.com/more-russian-soldiers-died-ukraine-than-all-wars-since-wwii-2023-2

Russia is either going to encourage gang bang parties to get women pregnant or they're screwed over the next decades, especially if this drags on. That's why the US is supplying weapons whether one likes it or not. https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/03/04/russias-population-nightmare-is-going-to-get-even-worse (sorry paywall).

Ukraine is screwed either way. But if Russia gets into the heavy 6 figures or god forbid 7 figure war death toll their demographics are toast for generations. Maybe a century. Polygamy would be the only way out of the hole and that would take 30-50 years to get a balanced population best case. I don't think Polygamy is an option there. They're going to need a baby boom either way.

Young women won't have suitable men and will move to Western nations if they can. Dead young men cannot produce material or build things. They can't make babies when they're six feet under.

There's a reason Russia is using Soviet era military equipment. They didn't have the men to make it. I also highly doubt they have the intelligence and ability to launch their nukes with any precision. It would have to be dirty bomb style that would likely entail killing their own soldiers and making the land useless they're trying to occupy.

We knew in 2011 Putin would attack Ukraine, says Bill Clinton

Revelation raises questions about whether US and Europe should have been more prepared for 2014 invasion

Vladimir Putin told Bill Clinton three years before his 2014 attack on Ukraine that he was not bound by the Budapest Memorandum guaranteeing the country’s territorial integrity, according to the former US president.

The revelation raises questions about whether the US and its European allies should have been more prepared for the 2014 attack, when Russia annexed Crimea and attacked the Donbas.

Clinton said he had talked to the Russian president at the 2011 World Economic Forum in Davos, where Putin brought up the issue of the memorandum, under which Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan agreed in 1994 to give up the nuclear arsenal they inherited on their territory from the Soviet Union, in return for assurances their sovereignty would be respected “within existing borders”.

It was signed by Boris Yeltsin on behalf of Russia, Clinton for the US, and John Major on behalf of the UK, acting as a third guarantor nation.

“Putin told me in 2011, three years before he took Crimea, that he did not agree with the agreement I made with Boris Yeltsin, that they would respect Ukraine’s territory if they gave up their nuclear weapons,” Clinton said on Thursday at a public discussion at 92nd Street Y, a Jewish cultural and community centre in New York.

“Putin said to me: ‘… I know Boris agreed to go along with you and John Major and Nato, but he never got it through the Duma [Russian parliament]. We have our extreme nationalists too. I don’t agree with it and I do not support it and I’m not bound by it.’

“I knew from that day forward, it was just a matter of time,” the former president said of Putin launching an attack.

The Russian leader had already launched an invasion of Chechnya in 1999, and Georgia in 2008.

After the seizure of Crimea in 2014, Putin claimed Russia was not bound by the Budapest Memorandum because the Maidan revolution and change of government in Kyiv earlier that year meant Ukraine had become a different state. “In respect to this state, we have not signed any obligatory documents,” he said.

However, his conversation with Clinton suggests Putin had decided not to honour the agreement years before the Maidan uprising.

...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/05/we-knew-putin-would-attack-ukraine-back-in-2011-says-bill-clinton

Another nail into the "muh coup!" theory.