patrick.net

Bitcoiner says

scholars looked

Cuz that's what scholars do.

Bitcoiner says

I stay away from religion

Do you still believe in bitcoin, COVID-19, the vax, and the big bang?

Not expecting a cogent answer?

richwicks says

The government has done to me what I thought never could be done. It has dehumanized the majority of the population to me.

This is the result of lies. People believe lies, and are corrupted. But they (some of them) can still be redeemed. They are victims, to be pitied. That is what humans are, people who need a savior.

Onvacation says

Do you still believe in .... the big bang?

Not your question to me, but I give it a possibility of being true although I know many of the problems with the theory. Could be there are localized big bangs, happening all the time.

Super weird to think that anything exists at all. That does make me contemplate if existence isn't eternal, what a nightmare THAT would be.

Bitcoiner says

Since Covid my life got a lot easier because my circle of relatives got A LOT SMALLER. Fuck em. Burn in hell :)

Thought you got the shot?
Must have been some other bitcoin true believer.

So you believe in hell? Or just being facetious?

PeopleUnited says

This is the result of lies. People believe lies, and are corrupted. But they (some of them) can still be redeemed. They are victims, to be pitied. That is what humans are, people who need a savior.

No offense to you, and I don't want to argue this, because I'm done with that 10 years ago before I met you.

I put religious faith into the same basket as government faith. To me, they are the same. I don't have faith, I can't have faith, I'm incapable of it. I'm not precisely an atheist, but I do not believe any religion is correct, or even close to being correct. I believe Christianity is just as real and factual as Roman mythology.

I do not want to argue about the contradictions of the Bible, the supposed "you just don't understand it, it means THIS" type of arguments. For one example, Job is a faithful believer in God and so Satan makes a bet, and God takes away everything from him, tortured him, just to test him. What's the lesson? The lesson I get from it, is God is one sadistic fuck and there is no reward in faith. This is a logical conclusion, I'm not being irrational, I'm not misunderstanding it or misinterpreting it - I'm not trying to fit a narrative around my conclusion, I have my conclusion because I have my conclusion based on what God supposedly did to Job.

The more I learned about the Bible, the less faith I had, until I had none, looked at other religions, wore off very quickly, became a materialist atheist for a long time, and now I'm coming in on "well, how does matter even exist?" and "How is it we can't make a thinking machine, if we're just meat robots?". There's more data capacity in my computer than there is in my brain. It SHOULD be able to have the capacity to "think". Really, it should, you'd need to code it, maybe run evolutionary algorithms through it for a long long time, maybe it would be VERY SLOW in doing it, but it certainly has more storage than my brain does.

And we see these clever AI programs. They can answer questions given information, but they can't be creative at all. IF they could be creative, they wouldn't make them public, they would keep them secret, and put them to work inventing a bunch of new things. They are clearly not alive nor sentient. At least not yet.

PeopleUnited says

I am as well, but I also look forward to eternity

What is your interpretation of the passage, "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal."

It always confused me because I love my life. Do you have to hate life to go to heaven?

Onvacation says

Thought you got the shot?
Must have been some other bitcoin true believer.

That was @Bitcoin -

https://patrick.net/post/2/2005-04-12-thread-for-orphaned-comments?start=115858#comment-1837337

I seriously think it's possible he's dead. I've pinged him several times asking about his state of health but he may have dropped off the face of the planet after bitcoin collapsed from 70,000 to whatever, 12 was it?

Bitcoiner says

Onvacation says

Bitcoiner says

I stay away from religion

Do you still believe in bitcoin, COVID-19, the vax, and the big bang?

Not expecting a cogent answer?

And not disappointed.

richwicks says

I seriously think it's possible he's dead.

They posted pretty consistently for two years then poof. He did say he'd let you know about his booster. You don't think he forgot his internet promise, do you?

Onvacation says

What is your interpretation of the passage, "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal."

Oh my god! That means I'm going to have eternal life! And that would be hell to me. Wow, god is a fucking bastard. :)

DhammaStep says

richwicks says

I seriously think it's possible he's dead.

They posted pretty consistently for two years then poof. He did say he'd let you know about his booster. You don't think he forgot his internet promise, do you?

I think he was probably paid by a company to boost investment in bitcoin. He might just be done.

Common thing for people to promote an investment until they are "done" doing it. I think that is more probable.

richwicks says

The lesson I get from it, is God is one sadistic fuck and there is no reward in faith. This is a logical conclusion, I'm not being irrational, I'm not misunderstanding it or misinterpreting it - I'm not trying to fit a narrative around my conclusion, I have my conclusion because I have my conclusion based on what God supposedly did to Job.

How is your conclusion be based on logic? Are you saying you believe God repayed Job’s faith with evil?

richwicks says

There's more data capacity in my computer than there is in my brain.

Some have estimated that the smartest most capable among us still only use 10% at best of the capacity of their brain.

PeopleUnited says

richwicks says

There's more data capacity in my computer than there is in my brain.

Some have estimated that the smartest most capable among us still only use 10% at best of the capacity of their brain.

It's a myth. We use all of it, we just don't use all of it all the time. Out body doesn't waste energy maintaining cells it doesn't use. We use every cell in our body, including fat.

Bitcoiner says

And when you find GOD I hope he can show you he is not that guy that threatens you with hell and calls you satan just because you put a genealogical timeline together based on what is written in the Bible. I don’t believe for a second that a god so powerful to create the earth and all of us can’t handle a question about the age of the earth. I rather think he wants us to ask and think instead of blindly follow.

I find God everywhere I look. And He most certainly warns (not threatens, there is a huge difference) every man to escape the judgement to come, by turning Away from their sin and Towards Jesus as their savior.

Don’t be so sensitive, nobody said you were Satan. But Satan does discredit and question Gods word. If you want to talk about genealogy that might be interesting. If you want to talk about the age of the earth, my question is why? Does the age of the earth change with our discussion? Does the age of the earth change what you think about God?

Are you a follower of God?

PeopleUnited says

richwicks says

The lesson I get from it, is God is one sadistic fuck and there is no reward in faith. This is a logical conclusion, I'm not being irrational, I'm not misunderstanding it or misinterpreting it - I'm not trying to fit a narrative around my conclusion, I have my conclusion because I have my conclusion based on what God supposedly did to Job.

How is your conclusion be based on logic? Are you saying you believe God repayed Job’s faith with evil?

I'm saying that I think of Christianity as a mythology.

I think I've told you many times, if there is a god, it's innate in all of us, and we don't need a book to know it - we know it instinctively.

All living things would know this.. entity - it would be born knowing it. If I had a gun pointed to my head with somebody demanding that I declare my religion, I would declare pantheism, or perhaps atheism and have my brains blown out.

I cannot deny there's a real existence of "evil" at this point, but I cannot say with any confidence this is a supernatural force. It may be emergent in any species or a conceptual construct of mankind. Is it evil for a cat to play with, and torture, a mouse before it kills it to eat it? It would be evil for a human being to torture a lamb before it kills it to eat it.

With the cat and mouse, I can forgive the cat, with a human being and a lamb, I consider that "person" a monster - and I would NOT forgive IT. I'm a lot more judgmental when it comes to so-called "human beings".

I have a neighbor that said his grandfather would take a chicken, and dunk it into boiling water, because when it was killed this way, it was easier to remove the feathers, when I expressed shocked he responded "well, it's just an animal". Well, perhaps, but it can still experience agony. "Well, it's just an animal." I do question his humanity just because of this, certainly he lacks compassion and/or empathy.

richwicks says

PeopleUnited says

richwicks says

There's more data capacity in my computer than there is in my brain.

Some have estimated that the smartest most capable among us still only use 10% at best of the capacity of their brain.

It's a myth. We use all of it, we just don't use all of it all the time. Out body doesn't waste energy maintaining cells it doesn't use. We use every cell in our body, including fat.

Don’t be obtuse. Here is the example: a body builder maximizes (or seeks to) their muscle power.
Similarly we can work to maximize our intellectual power. But they estimate that even those who seek to maximize their intellectual power still never tap the majority of their biological potential.

It’s not a myth, but it is an estimate. For example, people before the flood had longer lives, it would stand to reason they had increased ability to access and utilize their brains than we do today.

PeopleUnited says

For example, people before the flood had longer lives, it would stand to reason

There was no flood. This is a myth.

I do not want to argue your religion. If we go down that path, I'll either completely alienate you, or I'll turn you into an atheist like me. This advantages neither of us. You cannot change my mind about this. I didn't decide to become an atheist one day and find ways to justify it, I started as a Christian and as I learned more and more and more about natural science, it was stripped from me.

I didn't become an atheist because it was "the cool hip thing to do". It's an inescapable conclusion for me and if you continue to press on this, I will be forced to explain why, in inescapable completely logical detail. I want to drop this.

richwicks says

The lesson I get from it, is God is one sadistic fuck and there is no reward in faith. This is a logical conclusion, I'm not being irrational, I'm not misunderstanding it or misinterpreting it - I'm not trying to fit a narrative around my conclusion, I have my conclusion because I have my conclusion based on what God supposedly did to Job.

How is your conclusion be based on logic? Are you saying you believe God repayed Job’s faith with evil?

I'm saying that I think of Christianity as a mythology.

So exercising “logic” you accuse the God that you call mythological of not rewarding faith and essentially label this god that you claim does not exist as a psychopath. I fail to see the logic in this. It seems more like you are making up justification to ignore Gods word.

richwicks says

I want to drop this.

That’s fine. But I think I know what your problem is, someone once gave you the advice to reject any idea that causes “cognitive dissonance.” What if science and God are compatible?

PeopleUnited says

That’s fine. But I think I know what your problem is, someone once gave you the advice to reject any idea that causes “cognitive dissonance.” What if science and God are compatible?

They aren't, but your conception of god, is incompatible with science.

I keep telling you, if there's a god, it's innate within all living things. I'm sure you've had a pet, you MUST have realized it could think and feel, had emotion, affection, hatred, and endured pain. You must have, if you had a pet. If you've had a pet and never realized this, that's incomprehensible to me. A COW can experience this, a crow or a mouse can.

You could argue they aren't sentient, and I've said I no longer consider more than 1/2 of humanity sentient. That doesn't mean I don't think they have a soul, if such a thing exists, I just don't consider them sentient.

I'm being entirely honest with you. I'm not exaggerating, I'm certainly not boasting. This is a huge disappointment to me, it's a crushing disappointment as it took me so long to recognize it although I've long suspected it.

The more I learn, the more warped I become. I wanted to know, long ago, now I do, and now I'm on an unmarked trail. I'm OK with that.

Bitcoiner says

Richwicks,
I can relate to a lot of what you say about religion and Bible.
“There was no flood. This is a myth.” I never really looked into this. Do you mind elaborating on “there was no flood”. Curious what you found.
Thanks

A literal world-wide flood is just impossible - 40 days and 40 nights wasn't it? 2 and 7 animals of "each kind"? We'd see this in genetics - every species would be like the cheetah, which are all practically clones of one another - they had an evolutionary bottleneck somewhere and they are INCREDIBLY inbred - you can transplant skin from one to another - no problem.

Graham Hancock thinks there may have been a comet strike that caused a massive flood, but even that wouldn't have been worldwide, but could possibly be an echo of the event. He might just be a nut, but it's a fun and enjoyable conspiracy theory. Basically, he claims (with soem convincing charts, but how do you verify them?) that there was a comet strike during an ice age that destroyed an advanced civilization - not advanced like we currently are, but advanced, as it had been a worldwide civilization. It's a compelling tale.

richwicks says

your conception of god, is incompatible with science.

What is my conception of God?

richwicks says

A literal world-wide flood

https://answersingenesis.org/blogs/bryan-osborne/2016/06/17/rock-layers-evidence-millions-years-or-global-flood/

PeopleUnited says

richwicks says

your conception of god, is incompatible with science.

What is my conception of God?

You're Christian.

Doesn't this mean you believe that Jesus was literally the son of god from a virgin birth that performed miracles?

My concept of this is that he was an amalgam of several legends, one being Hercules.

The story of the Great Flood is very similar to the story of Gilgamesh.

The Jewish religion appears to be an offshoot of the Babylonian religion, where they took the God of War as their one and only god, Jehovah. Judaism was founded in 700 BC or so. There was no exodus, there was no King David. It's all myth. We have records from this time. NOBODY in Rome or Egypt or Greece recorded a Jewish state - even THAT is a myth - Israel never existed, at least it didn't 2000 years ago.

I see no point in challenging your religion. At one point, I saw religion as a "great evil", well, maybe it is, but the government is far worse and I now see it as a balancing force against that. The enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that...

PeopleUnited says

richwicks says

A literal world-wide flood

https://answersingenesis.org/blogs/bryan-osborne/2016/06/17/rock-layers-evidence-millions-years-or-global-flood/

FINE! Want a mind bender?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw5oEeJdHNg

Their hypothesis, if you can even call it that, is like 100 thousand years ago and the Biblical flood is an echo of that event.

I do NOT WANT TO ARGUE against your religion. It's tedious, and it's not productive. When I lost my religion, it left me aimless for a long time. 15 years ago, I would have relished doing that to you, but not today. It doesn't help you, and your religion is a bulwark against government abuse. Neither of us comes out ahead if I change your mind and I guarantee with certainty you can't change my mind back.

Onvacation says

"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal."

Love and hate are making a distinction between those that want to retain selfish motives, vs those that will pursue Gods will (namely repentance and turning from their own selfishness and turning toward God). Hating life, just means hating the sin that abounds in the world and even Christians sin more than they want to.

PeopleUnited says

richwicks says

your conception of god, is incompatible with science.

What is my conception of God?

@richwicks did answer pretty much.
Try to understand that the people who believe in God, DO have conclusions for everything related to god and trying to find the facts to support the conclusions. Where as rational/atheist people look at the data, facts and come to conclusions.
Perhaps its hard for you to understand that its a one way path to become atheist.
When it comes to morality, atheist are much more nice compare to religious people.
I'd suggest do not waste your time to convince rational people to believe God stuff.
Do not feel guilty that you are not able to convince either, just be happy for your self.

Bitcoiner says

I love my life and I try to enjoy every minute of it

Good. If you are not enjoying life, you’re doing it wrong.

I know several pastors. None of them live high on the hog. But certainly there are many pastors who do it for the wrong reasons. Basically if God did not call them, they are a hireling (working for pay rather than working for God. I’d venture to guess that at best 50% of the pastors and other staff were put there by the calling of God. The rest do the work for other reasons, even if they fool themselves or others into believing otherwise.

Rubicon says

Let me me know what you come up with.

Yes counting the years from Adam to Jesus is about 4,000. Add 2 more grand and that puts us somewhere around 5993 years since the Garden of Eden.

Blue says

When it comes to morality, atheist are much more nice compare to religious people.

I don't know if this is true, however it's a red flag is somebody constantly talks about how religious they are. Somebody that is a scumbag will use their SUPPOSED belief in religion as a mask for the immorality.

I think there are plenty of atheists that claim to be religious. Just about every televangelist is an atheist. Deeply cynical people.

you guys know little about faith. you have to live in a place of faith to understand it. what you see in a big city is superficial for most part.

Rubicon says

And do you think dinosaurs are also only 6000 years old and were on Noah’s ark?

Lizards grow and grow the longer they live in general. But the eggs were relatively small and so babies were no bigger than a cat. I see no reason they were not on the Ark.
Most of the fossils of those beasts are in the same layers because they were buried during the catastrophic flood when the fountains of the deep and perhaps the water canopy that used to cover the earth (protecting the surface from harmful radiation) was broken up. Pangea broke up at this catastrophic event as well pushing up mountains and forming the continents. It was the most catastrophic even the world had ever seen and God gave the rainbow after that (did not exist before the flood due to extremely different atmospheric conditions) as a promise that he’d never destroy the Entire world again with water.

I don't ever recall the Bible saying that Earth is 6000 years old. That is something that religious people believed when pushing back at the Scientists that said man evolved from monkeys and the Universe was billions of years old. Even the Bible isn't meant to be taken as Literary work. Finding fault in the writings of men, which the Bible certainly is.. Isn't proof that God exists or not.

Tenpoundbass says

Even the Bible isn't meant to be taken as Literary work.

The Word of God spoke the world into existence. Hearing the Word of God is the only way to have faith. It is not a work of man. It Is Life.

Dating methods are imprecise. Science is based on observations. The only reliable data would be from an eye witness. Everything else is a best guess when it comes to dating, and even then there are many assumptions built in (because there are not eyewitness of every detail that could impact the assumptions made about conditions over many years).

If there were no rainbows before the flood, and therefore no rain, and if humans lived hundreds of years during the antediluvian period, it stands to reason that our planet and species has undergone dramatic changes that are not elaborated on in history or science books.

When these details are ignored, incorrect assumptions are made and dating estimates become even more flawed.

But I do give the scientists you mentioned credit, their estimates are a lot more reasonable than others I heard. And at the very least the dating methods do give us good ideas of relative age even if their actual age estimates are inaccurate.

As far as the ice age I’ve heard two possiblity. One possibility is that during the flood catastrophe ice fell from the sky in the northern regions (which would explain the multiple wooly mammoths found frozen in ice standing up with vegetation in their stomachs that is NOT from tundra regions that the mammoths were found in (in other words they were flash frozen and the climate in that region instantly changed going from temperate to tundra after the flood/melt). Another possibility would be that after the flood the ice age occurred. We know at one time there was a land bridge between Asia and North America for example and after the tower of Babel God may have changed the climate to force the different tribes to keep moving, Catastrophic snow storms could have buried those mammoths too (snow storms the likes of which we have never seen. In the Bible in one of the genealogy reviews tells of a time during Peleg’s life in which the earth was divided which seems to be a reference to the changes that occurred after God broke up the Tower of Babel venture.

Why not?
https://answersingenesis.org/environmental-science/ice-age/when-was-the-ice-age-in-biblical-history/

PeopleUnited says

Dating methods are imprecise. Science is based on observations. The only reliable data would be from an eye witness

No, what you said is incorrect.

We don't have 1 or 2 dating methods, we have dozens and they overlap.

https://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html

Don’t put word in my mouth. You must have misread or misunderstood what I wrote. Of course there are several dating methods. They are all imprecise and based on multiple assumptions.

This is what I said. And it is an accurate description of fact.

richwicks says

Science is based on observations. The only reliable data would be from an eye witness.

This is why dating models are wrong, just like climate models. They are trying to explain something that has too many variables to accurately account for, leading to terribly flawed predictions.