patrick.net

RayAmerica says

Why is Ukraine so important to the national interests of the USA?

It has nothing to do with Ukraine. I don't like Biden. This is THE definition of a proxy war with Russia. They can't nuke us because we don't have boot's on the ground in Ukraine. If they do NATO allies lob nukes. Russia is in a shit spot they could have handled diplomatically. They wanted a swath of land that if they were a major power they could have just bought it. They're not a major power.

I also give no shits about Ukraine. If you're not of Eastern European descent or haven't interacted with them you have no business in the discussion about any of this. They're not rational people. Either nation or the region. I am one just Americanized. I'm one generation removed from float on the boat eastern Euro. My grandparents. My parents business a bit back catered to Eastern Euros. I worked for them. I dealt with them. Contradictory or self deprecating, but they're fucking idiots.

The US is involved, but this shit would have happened either way. Anyone that says otherwise should get a lobotomy. Russia was and will try to move westward, always. Their land is shit. Apparently no one has been to Canada. It's the mirror image of what Russia is. Cold and shitty. No one generally live below a certain latitude. Russia is worse than Canada, they just have oil and gas up there that is likely to go off line soon.

Russia AND Ukraine are fucked. Who cares? We don't have dead Americans for once. Both countries will fail. The outcome of both countries failing should be the conversation, not who is "winning." There are no sides to pick.

I'm slightly amazed at the comments here.
Ukraine did all it could diplomatically to avoid being invaded by Putin. Ukraine gave up weapons in exchange for assurances but of course when dealing with an asshole, you can't expect the other party to comply with something he agreed to.
Ukraine saw the other former soviet countries which Putin either invaded or took over installing a puppet (e.g. Belarus).
It was inevitable that mistrust of Putin's sincerity would lead Ukraine to seek more European ties; it sure doesn't want anything to do with Russia.
The guys Putin is sending to the Ukraine dying fields are not from Moscow; they're from Russian Federation places like Kazakhstan.
Putin can use the war to decrease the population of people who don't like him.

WookieMan says

Russia was and will try to move westward, always.

Europeans are always trying to move eastward,to take that delicious gas, oil, and metals. "The poor Russians need our Leadership!"

clambo says

Ukraine did all it could diplomatically to avoid being invaded by Putin.

What Ukraine failed to do was stop shelling the ethnic Russian civilians in the Donbass. They did that for many years and are still doing it.

RayAmerica says

Biden’s Insane Foreign Policy Actions Drove China and Russia Together – Now the World Is Facing WWIII

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/02/bidens-insane-foreign-policy-actions-drove-china-and-russia-together-now-world-is-facing-wwiii/

Are you high? Do you really think China wants to see Russia defeated? China doesn't know they're next? Russia and China both know that neither one of them can fall to the US. If they did, the whole world becomes a vassal to the US. If this were to happen, it would be No Bueno for ANYONE worldwide.

I've been concerned that the Ukraine/Russian conflict might lead us into WW III. If that happens, at least we can all be assured that all those $Billions going over there was well spent and that there is zero corruption.

I'm ashamed to have suspected that a lot of that money was going into off shore accounts for the crooks in Ukraine, kick backs to U. S. politicians and corporations.

BIDEN OFFICIAL CLEARS Ukraine of Misusing U.S. Financial Aid (That makes it official ... wink, wink)
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2023/02/24/biden-official-clears-ukraine-of-misusing-u-s-financial-aid/

Ukraine is not misusing the tens of billions of dollars in direct financial assistance it is receiving courtesy of U.S. taxpayers according to a top Biden administration official.

Samantha Power, the administrator of the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), gave the public affirmation during a CNN live town hall on Thursday evening.

Her assurances came just hours ahead of the White House revealing it would give another $2 billion in military aid to Ukraine as its war with Russia officially hits the one-year mark, bringing the total amount of American military assistance to over $30 billion in one year.

The U.S. has given more than $100 billion in military and humanitarian aid to Ukraine since the start of the war one year ago even as doubts have been expressed over the potential for corruption.

Well, the so called aid IS packaged as Babylonian debt to enslave Ukrainian productivity for decades to come. Not to mention the Ukrainians are still laundering proxies for selling old and potentially non-functional warehouse USA armaments on the black market and sharing the bounty with American politicians.

One always needs to look on the bright side of the cloud.

WookieMan says

Russia is in a shit spot they could have handled diplomatically.

They spent 8 years working with the West to implement the Minsk Accords and negotiating for Ukraine to return to neutrality

What you just said is like "well, if Saddam Hussein just disclosed his weapons of mass destruction program".

You cannot negotiate with Neocons. Their objective is ALWAYS war.

Obama’s Former WH Physician: Biden’s Cognitive Decline ‘Brings Us Closer to an All-Out War’ (i.e., World War III) with Russia, China

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2023/02/25/obamas-former-wh-physician-bidens-cognitive-decline-brings-us-closer-to-an-all-out-war-with-russia-china/

RayAmerica says

Obama’s Former WH Physician: Biden’s Cognitive Decline ‘Brings Us Closer to an All-Out War’ (i.e., World War III) with Russia, China

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2023/02/25/obamas-former-wh-physician-bidens-cognitive-decline-brings-us-closer-to-an-all-out-war-with-russia-china/

Biden isn't in control of anything. He reads teleprompters and makes appearances for media. The rest of the world knows this and nobody is fooled.

Victoria Nuland is more the president than Joe Biden is.

RayAmerica says

‘Brings Us Closer to an All-Out War’ (i.e., World War III) with Russia, China

Unfortunately, WWIII is a long planned policy of the Shadow Government and neocons, not a feature of Biden Actor Stable's fake senility, that's the usual distraction.

richwicks says

Victoria Nuland is more the president than Joe Biden is.

Yeah, Susan Rice also is co-President.

Nuland had her fingerprints all of Ukraine back in 2013 and even got called out by Merkel for meddling into Ukraine.

Nuland was a senior political player within the Bush Jr admin. Read about how she controlled it, and was an adviser to Cheney before Bush Jr nominated her for NATO ambassador.

Nuland's husband is a neo-conservative RINO, and I heard on radio he's trying to get back into good graces of Republican Party. This tells me he's going to try to be a policy advisor to someone like DaSantis or Haley. I know he left Republicans after Trump won.

,

clambo says

Ukraine did all it could diplomatically to avoid being invaded by Putin.

I’m slightly amazed that anyone actually believes that Ukraine is a sovereign nation, and not just a vassal territory captive to both the western and eastern oligarchs.

Ceffer says

Unfortunately, WWIII is a long planned policy of the Shadow Government and neocons, not a feature of Biden Actor Stable's fake senility, that's the usual distraction.

You are not wrong. But politically speaking, everyone who is not Biden, should be blaming him for this war. If Biden would stop funding and promoting it we might make strides toward peace. Politically we need to make Biden and the Democrats own all the death and destruction they are endorsing and funding in Ukraine.

In Explosive New Interview, Sy Hersh Details His Allegations of the Nord Stream 2 Sabotage (VIDEO)

From the article:

Hersh then tackled his recent reporting by discussing Germany. The people there made it through this winter with natural gas prices at 3-4 times their regular prices but next year is going to be a disaster.

The people of Germany and of Europe are not jumping on the war with Russia train and don’t care so much about Ukraine because it’s one of the most corrupt countries in the world is what Biden was being told.

The choice for Europe was either to keep supporting the war or keep receiving the natural gas and keep warm and make money.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/02/in-explosive-interview-sy-hersh-details-his-allegations-of-the-nord-stream-2-sabotage-video/

They Do Not Want Peace, And So You Need To Prepare For A Horrific Global War

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/they-do-not-want-peace-and-so-you-need-prepare-horrific-global-war

... our leaders made it abundantly clear that they aren’t even interested in considering China’s peace plan…

US National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan, speaking on CNN, brushed off the Chinese proposal, saying it should have ended after the first bullet point, which calls for “respecting the sovereignty of all countries.”

“This war could end tomorrow, if Russia stopped attacking Ukraine and withdrew its forces,” he said.

Asked about the proposal, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said, “China doesn’t have much credibility” in light of its failure to condemn Putin’s war.

NOTE: did the USA 'respect the sovereignty of all' the countries in which the CIA conducted coup d'etats countless times, including the nation in question, UKRAINE in 2014?

Patrick says

What Ukraine failed to do was stop shelling the ethnic Russian civilians in the Donbass. They did that for many years and are still doing it.

Now Russia has pretty much leveled much of the Donbass in their total cockup of this war getting hundreds of thousands of people killed. I guess that is Putin's way of protecting all those pro-Russian civilians? They have to "destroy the village to save it"?

Are there still pro-Russian people for Putin to "save" in Ukraine? If so, save them from what? And is that "what" so serious and important to kill hundreds of thousands of human beings and risk WWIII?

Russia had a small window to get this done and they failed miserably. Not only have they failed beyond miserably on this initial conventional stage of shock and awe, they haven't even gotten to the insurgency stage yet. How does Russia hang onto portions of Ukraine without decades of massive unrest keeping this a festering sore?

The war, death, destruction and global instability ends today if Putin orders Russian troops to return home. Everything short of the Russian invaders returning home and recognizing existing borders is prolonging death and creating greater risk to the world.

Since Ivan the Terrible Russia annexed neighboring countries because there is no geographic barrier to invaders reaching Moscow.
This is the rationale given by Putin apologists; he's just protecting Russia from another invasion.
But this was a pretext for Putin, since Europe had no desire to invade and were Russia's biggest cash cows.
Putin has a warm water port in Syria now so he doesn't need to freak out over leaving the Crimea peninsula.
As Trump often said, imagine if the trillions of dollars spent on wars had been spent in the USA instead.
I'm annoyed that Putin and the CCP are going to keep our military budgets high indefinitely.

Brief history:

During the collapse of the Soviet Union, then President George H. W. Bush and Secretary of State James Baker both PROMISED Soviet Premiere Mikhail Gorbachev that NATO would not expand 'one inch' beyond its current membership. That promise was broken repeatedly by NATO's ever expanding sphere of nations and strategic placement of weapons ... all aimed at Russia.

In 2013, Victoria Nuland of the State Department, and, Sen. John McCain, both strongly advocated the overthrow of the duly elected, pro-Russian Government in Ukraine. McCain went so far as to travel to Ukraine whereby he promised "US support" for their 'revolution,' which did take place in 2014. Russia felt
threatened and hostilities between Ukraine and Russia went to a new level, culminating in Russia's military invasion last year.

Question: due to the Monroe Doctrine, JFK stood firm against the installation of nuclear missiles being placed in Cuba some 90 miles away from our shore. The conflict was so serious it came close to an all out war with the then USSR. How is this any different for Russia, with their country being surrounded by hostile member nations of NATO and now Ukraine?

Is Ukraine worth risking World War III???

Russia's puppet was thrown out of Ukraine; this pissed off Putin but is not agression towards Russia.
To dictators, like Putin and Xi, any neighbor who has a freer form of goverment is seen as a threat.
Taiwan would never invade China, but the CCP doesn't like an example of freedom so nearby that Chinese people see what they are missing.
Putin rolled the dice and lost; the weak, ineffectual West he was expecting decided to start sending weapons to Ukraine.
When Israel was invaded by its neighbors using Soviet weapons, it defeated them with its own and Western weapons; this enraged the Saudis so much they had an oil embargo in 1973.
Today, it's happening again; Russian military equipment and tactics are inferior.

socal2 says

The war, death, destruction and global instability ends today if Putin orders Russian troops to return home.

Do they have to leave Crimea too?

clambo says

I'm annoyed that Biden and the Democrats are going to keep our military budgets high indefinitely.

Fixed it for ya.

adolf Hitler says

Russian military equipment and tactics are inferior.

Remind me Adolf, how well did that German hubris work out for you?

clambo says

Russia's puppet was thrown out of Ukraine; this pissed off Putin but is not agression towards Russia.

It is when the Ukraine constitution was amended in 2014 as well to allow Ukraine to join NATO. Putin then took Crimea to prevent seeing a NATO naval base at Sevastopol.

RayAmerica says

Is Ukraine worth risking World War III???

elites will fight russia till last Ukrainian. its easy to sacrifice others for once personal goals. would end instantly if their own children were on front lines.

RayAmerica says

Is Ukraine worth risking World War III???

No it's not.

Putin should stop this shit now and end all the violence.

RayAmerica says

Is Ukraine worth risking World War III???

Well said, Neville.

Putin is just following NATOs precedent set in 1999 when they illegally attacked a sovereign nation (Serbia) and chopped off Kosovo.

Yep. And nobody gave a shit about Austria and Italy arming the Croat Militias, or the Arabs dumping weapons and terrorist volunteers (many who went on to fight in Iraq and Syria as various AQ/ISIS members) in Bosnia. Only EBIL SERBIA was functionally blockaded.

The Western Press never mentioned that the first act of Independent Croatia was to round up all Serbian military age males in concentration camps with no trial and no charges, 70,000 of them. Reminding Serbia of Jasenovak, when Nazis and Croats executed hundreds of thousands of Serbian Orthodox.

Nomograph says

Well said, Neville.

Look who's gone full NeoCon! The warhawks find friends on all sides of the aisle now days.

Look at how the propaganda on the lab leak is changing now that China might start supporting Russia. We should have never gotten involved in Ukraine, NATO should have been dissolved with the end of the Soviet Union. The War machine just keeps it going.

Nomograph says

RayAmerica says

Is Ukraine worth risking World War III???

Well said, Neville.

Question: How is Ukraine, one of the most corrupt nations on earth, a threat to our national interests?

Ukraine War Poses Existential Threat To Survival Of The Russian People: Putin

(Interpretation: if Russia is backed into a corner by the USA & NATO, they will go nuclear)

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ukraine-war-poses-existential-threat-survival-russian-people-putin

RayAmerica says

Question: How is Ukraine, one of the most corrupt nations on earth, a threat to our national interests?

You keep asking these types of questions to America and the West.

Why aren't you asking this of Putin and the Russians since they are the only ones that can stop the carnage? Ukrainians are not going to just sit back and let Russia take over their country. America could cut off weapons today, but Ukraine would still fight and form insurgent movements in the occupied portions of their country - keeping this conflict burning hot for years.

Imagine the Israeli/Palestinian conflict - but 10X!

Seriously, what would a Western/NATO aligned Ukraine "threat" be in concrete terms to Russia other than prestige and Putin's standing? Once you have identified the threat to Russia, was that threat greater than all of the Russian loss of life and military equipment this past year in their total fuck up of a war?

socal2 says

Seriously, what would a Western/NATO aligned Ukraine "threat" be in concrete terms to Russia other than prestige and Putin's standing?

NATO naval bases on the Black Sea at Sevastopol and Odessa.

socal2 says

Seriously, what would a Western/NATO aligned Ukraine "threat" be in concrete terms to Russia other than prestige and Putin's standing? Once you have identified the threat to Russia, was that threat greater than all of the Russian loss of life and military equipment this past year in their total fuck up of a war?

Outside of oil and gas Russia has nothing for the most part. Its land is shit besides the resources. Cold as fuck. It's misery. But someone has to make the vodka and get the resources out of the ground. That's why they want the somewhat more temperate land and access to a warm water port consistently.

Think Canada. Go 200 miles inland north of the border and live from October to May and enjoy. I believe Alaska is the highest suicide state in the nation. That's 80% of Russia basically. Actually it's Wyoming, didn't see that coming: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/suicide-mortality/suicide.htm

Either way, Russia is shit land. They're alway going to try and move West. IF they were a superpower they could have just purchased the land from one of the most corrupt nations on the planet. They chose to throw 1950's war machines at it and a bunch of drunks. It's like going into a bar and punching the guy that just got served a beer and you could have just bought it yourself. Russians are morons. So are Ukrainians.

socal2,

Several questions for you ... I'd really appreciate some answers.

Were you in favor of the CIA led Coup in 2014 which removed the duly elected government of Ukraine, only to be replaced by a CIA puppet government which just so happened to be hostile to Russia?

Are you in favor of the never ending expansion of NATO, all designed to isolate and threaten Russia?

Are you in favor of the placement of offensive weapons, all aimed at Russia, in NATO nations and territories, including Ukraine?

Are you willing to start World War III over the Ukraine conflict? (Rutgers Univ. recently conducted a study of such a scenario and concluded that within 5 years, over 2 BILLION people would die)

Would you be supportive of a hostile China organizing a coalition of nations in our region and hemisphere, along with installing offensive (including nuclear) weapons, all aimed at mainland America?

Would you be supportive of Canada, Cuba and Mexico joining such a coalition, or, would you view this as a threat to America?

HeadSet says

socal2 says

Seriously, what would a Western/NATO aligned Ukraine "threat" be in concrete terms to Russia other than prestige and Putin's standing?

NATO naval bases on the Black Sea at Sevastopol and Odessa.

It's not about NATO necessarily. Western Europeans are pussies. They're worried about the US. We're literally at war with Russia now. We just don't have enlisted boots on the ground. This doesn't end well for Russia either way. Ukraine is already destroyed in many areas.

Frankly dumbfounded by anyone that thinks Russia wins this. If the West keeps sending weapons and training, Russia stands no chance. They've built nothing new. If Putin says push the nuclear button in 10 minutes, there's a high probability it won't work. They had 40 fucking miles of equipment destroyed and/or taken. They didn't bring fuel or food.

Do people not watch videos? There's a reason 90% of Russians have dash cams in their cars. Because people will walk out in front of cars, fake getting hit and make money off of it. I am of Eastern European descent. We are ass holes. My parents were born here and so was I, but it's in my gut. I know I'm a dick. Russian, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, etc are all dicks.

HeadSet says

socal2 says

Seriously, what would a Western/NATO aligned Ukraine "threat" be in concrete terms to Russia other than prestige and Putin's standing?

NATO naval bases on the Black Sea at Sevastopol and Odessa.

Would those naval bases result in 100,000+ dead/injured Russians and loss of thousands of tanks, BMPs, trucks, helicopters, jets.......let alone the destruction of Nord stream pipeline?

I just fail to see the cost benefit analysis or ROI for Russia in all this.

If Russia managed to quickly knock out Kiev in the first few weeks and limit casualties on both sides, it might have worked like Georgia and Crimea. But that ship has totally sailed where Russia's ham-fisted fuckups have only galvanized a generation of Ukrainians to hate Russia like never before. Even if Russia manages to totally pacify Ukraine and bomb it to the stone age - what have they gained other than a destroyed buffer zone holding tens of thousands of Russian corpses and a more unified Europe and NATO.