patrick.net

You should always be investing for capital appreciation while you are working.
The reason is to have capital to create income when you have no income from working.
You should be investing at the same time as paying your house or other debt because you want to get the benefit of the compounding effect.
Look at funds from Vanguard, T.Rowe Price, Fidelity.

Patrick had a bumper sticker that summed it up pretty well, debt = slavery. We've been debt free, again, for about six months now. And that was like a few hundred interest free to a hospital. But still, knowing I only have to cover my monthly expenses, and if they get too much, I can just move, feels good.

@Patrick if you still have those, could you send me one? I can provide you with an address.

GreaterNYCDude says

What are you guy's opinion on debt?

No one will EVER give you this opinion. You don't have to pay it. There are options to get out of it. THIS is why the morons that tell you do not invest in 401k/IRA are just that morons. No creditor can touch it. Dividends and invested income tax free. You don't lose your house.

You could rack up $500k in CC debt and never pay it. People don't understand the system. If you have $500k in the bank they WILL take it. A retirement fund is protected. If you BK with $1k in your checking account and $1M in retirement funds they restructure the debt or wipe it out because on paper you have $1k and the creditors will get shit. That's why there a cap on retirement investment. Outside of a total financial collapse, no one can touch it. You don't want a big savings account or checking account or CD. Max out 401k, Roths, HSA's. You're looking at $30k/pp a year. $60k/couple. After 5 years you can take money out of the Roth. HSA anytime as long as you have it document.

Debt isn't slavery. It's a tool. Learn how to use it is all I'll say. You don't have to repay it either. You won't go to jail unless you lie. This is why most people are poor. Too scared to take the risks.

I'll second this. If it's a big company, or someone who tried to screw you, fuck 'em. I once had TMobile insist I didn't return a phone and open a collection against me. Solution? I ordered a brand new iphone on some deal that didn't require any payment, then never paid for the phone or my plan. Sold the phone for $200. I once had ATT insist I return a router I purchased second hand. Of course I told them to fuck off, and got hit with a piddly $60 collection.

Also, if you order service and they don't know who you are, what can they do when you don't pay? Can't do shit...

NuttBoxer says

I'll second this. If it's a big company, or someone who tried to screw you, fuck 'em. I once had TMobile insist I didn't return a phone and open a collection against me

Yup. It's a contract to do business together. Yes it may ding your credit, but you usually can get out of that even. Everyone gets freaked out. Own a building. Tenant doesn't pay. For fucks sake you evict them. You'll never get the back rent. Might be harder to rent in the future for the tenant.

I think I've brought it up before. Had to short sale a building in Chicago personally. Good now, but I wanted to hang myself. I felt like a fucking failure. I was 25(ish) in 2008 when it started going south. Took 2 years and then the wife, well I got the wife pregnant and the thoughts of suicide went away. I'm not joking. I was close. Really rough patch in my life. NEVER let debt control you. You don't have to pay it.

In hindsight I was a fucking idiot for even thinking that over fucking debt. I did the math. BOA lost NOTHING on my short sale. It may have been a gain because of amortization. Banks guilt you into feeling bad. They don't operate if they don't loan. It's a fucking shit situation. I've grown beyond that and understand debt and bankruptcy much more. As long as you're not going to jail who gives a shit? Our current house was bought when we couldn't even get a loan. You figure shit out.

About to build a house with $100k with a gift. Mom "assumes" the loan (not really) that we'll still pay principle and interest on. She pays taxes and insurance. $600/mo for her, a cut of $600/mo for her. We pay $600/mo on principle and interest. She doesn't reset the tax rate and gets the senior exemption making her portion lower. $90K per year pension and no debt for her. She's substantially closer to us and my sister. Fucking best win win out of a long term shit show. She's locked in low and we get our responsible dream house with her help.

I'm fortunate as fuck. You have to think. You have to be trustworthy. These opportunities are out there for everyone. If shit really hits the fan I've got plans to buy property up with my mom and sister. I haven't failed anyone yet except myself and my wife early on in our days together. I think for some of you coastal guys it's going to get shitty. I've been there. You don't have to pay debt. That's all I'll say. Will it mess things up, yes. You'll figure it out if you're smart. I almost didn't. And that's why I get testy with some users here. Life lessons matter. I'm in the best place I could be currently and the landscape looks like shit. Find the positive.

NuttBoxer says

Patrick if you still have those, could you send me one? I can provide you with an address.

@NuttBoxer Sorry I gave them all away quite a while ago. Maybe I should order more, but the site is no longer really about debt.