patrick.net

SunnyvaleCA says

How about making the hydrogen on demand. Then you could feed the oxygen to the combustion area and consume that at the same time.

I think that might be dangerous. If both aren't burned completely.

Air is about 20% oxygen anyhow. I dunno, you don't want to burn up all the oxygen in the room either, and then just leave nitrogen and trace amounts of water vapor and CO2. That's a sure way to die.

You have to keep the O2 and H2 separate until you combine to burn. Maybe it would be enough to vent the O2 into the kitchen area, but then you'd want to mix it, make certain there can't be a build up of O2 anywhere.

B.A.C.A.H. says

If they take away my gas range oven from me I'll just use propane. Me and many others. There's gonna be lots of accidents, fires, etc with people having propane ovens in their homes.

Propane just like natural gas is adulterated with a odor that is QUITE noticeable when it leaks.

Hydrogen is losing attention recently. Gas when leaking become dangerous for atmosphere.
Plug Power (hydrogen producer) as well as Nicola (hydrogen semi-truck producer), both stocks nose down recently with no light in tunnel for recovery.

REpro says

Hydrogen is losing attention recently. Gas when leaking become dangerous for atmosphere.
Plug Power (hydrogen producer) as well as Nicola (hydrogen semi-truck producer), both stocks nose down recently with no light in tunnel for recovery.

I'm not saying this is a good engineering solution. I'm saying gas is being outlawed and chefs don't want to move to electric, so this may be a solution.

B.A.C.A.H. says

WookieMan says

Fuck family, that's baggage and a burden

That's your family, not mine.

I'm glad to have known a unicorn. That's absolute bull shit and you know it. The amount people lie is staggering. I find it hilarious now. Sure.... your family is nice and neat and just plain happy. And why do you HAVE to live by them. Planes, trains and automobiles after all. You can still love them and not live in an over priced shit hole of needles and shit. I judge by what I see. Keep living the life I guess?

CA is near 3rd world country status outside of the super elite areas that no one on this forum can afford. These 3rd world sections have $1-3M homes that are shit. No disconnect there. Whatever. I know my move was the right one 100%. Staying because of family and weather is not logical, but whatever? You never tried it.

richwicks says

B.A.C.A.H. says

If they take away my gas range oven from me I'll just use propane. Me and many others. There's gonna be lots of accidents, fires, etc with people having propane ovens in their homes.

Propane just like natural gas is adulterated with a odor that is QUITE noticeable when it leaks.

I have a propane oven/stove-top and I don’t think I have ever once been afraid of having an accident. It’s all in how you use it, respect it. Really no different than natural gas.

ForcedTQ says

richwicks says

B.A.C.A.H. says

If they take away my gas range oven from me I'll just use propane. Me and many others. There's gonna be lots of accidents, fires, etc with people having propane ovens in their homes.

Propane just like natural gas is adulterated with a odor that is QUITE noticeable when it leaks.

I have a propane oven/stove-top and I don’t think I have ever once been afraid of having an accident. It’s all in how you use it, respect it. Really no different than natural gas.

How in the hell would you have any accident with natural gas or propane??? That's Darwin award material. That's like not knowing how to hook up a hose to a water spigot. If you're that dumb you deserve to die from an explosion if I'm being honest.

Edit/addition: I'm in agreement about your comment. I came across as harsh. I just find getting rid of one of the cleanest burning fuels is one of the dumbest propositions I've heard of in my life. Nah, use electric that burns coal and natural gas to create power. Great idea.... I swear these idiots don't understand how their life operates. You gonna dump that water heater?

B.A.C.A.H. says

If they take away my gas range oven from me I'll just use propane. Me and many others.

@"B.A.C.A.H." People will simply start making wood gas out of anything organic as well:

https://www.mofga.org/resources/green-building/wood-gasification/

Remember when Morning Joe and Mika said the plot to stop gas stoves was a right wing conspiracy theory?

AmericanKulak says

Remember when Morning Joe and Mika said the plot to stop gas stoves was a right wing conspiracy theory?

I don't even know who that is. And it's a bat shit crazy theory, that's what it is. Not trying to incite violence, but anyone wanting to ban natural gas would have some consequences coming is all I'll say. IL is a shit state, but they haven't gone as remotely full retard as CA apparently.

WookieMan says

How in the hell would you have any accident with natural gas or propane??? That's Darwin award material. That's like not knowing how to hook up a hose to a water spigot. If you're that dumb you deserve to die from an explosion if I'm being honest.

Yes.

You've made reference to such folks as tenants of properties you managed. Lots of them out there.

WookieMan says

I don't even know who that is. And it's a bat shit crazy theory, that's what it is.

Two twats on a morning show. Mika Brzezinski is the daughter of Zbigniew Brzezinski who is the democratic counterpart to Henry Kissinger. Basically, nobody you should listen to. Mika is just an airhead that got the job as propagandist because of who her father was,

Patrick says

People will simply start making wood gas out of anything organic as well:

Nope. This is in the same category as from the 1970s "If gas gets to a dollar a gallon people will convert their cars to run on alcohol from home stills."

WookieMan says

And it's a bat shit crazy theory, that's what it is. Not trying to incite violence, but anyone wanting to ban natural gas would have some consequences coming is all I'll say. IL is a shit state, but they haven't gone as remotely full retard as CA apparently.

The banning has progressed beyond the "theory" stage. It'll start in some cities banning on new construction. Then, owners of new construction (who have no gas) will complain about infrastructure costs and so gas line maintenance will be neglected until it is deemed a hazard and turned off for everyone.

Berkeley (of course) already banned gas hookups on new contruction in 2019!
https://www.fastcompany.com/90834734/gas-stoves-cities-states-ban

And of course, the marketing was just as expected:

In 2019, Berkeley, California, became the first city in the U.S. to change its building code to ban gas hookups in new buildings. It was a response to the climate emergency: Nearly a third of the city’s emissions came from natural gas.

B.A.C.A.H. says

But the electric range OVEN is not a suitable replacement for cooking with gas. Cooking with an electric range oven SUCKS. It only produces radiant heat, a different concept than the heated combustion products from burning of gas diffusing into the stuff we're cooking.

Ah. Interesting. I hardly use my oven and have hardly known anything but electric for ovens. (Parents "upgraded" to an electric oven in the 1980s.) I do compensate for electric oven by using an outdoor grill.

While I agree that gas ovens are different than electric ovens, I think that most people are fine with electric ovens. The big pushback is from those who like gas cooktops. But the people who like electric ovens will find common ground with you as, surly, any government bans will come for the ovens and the cooktops alike.

Just took a look and ... yup ... there's a demand for stoves with gas cooktop and electric (self cleaning) oven!
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/ranges/dual-fuel-ranges/pcmcat196400050017.c?id=pcmcat196400050017

SunnyvaleCA says

While I agree that gas ovens are different than electric ovens, I think that most people are fine with electric ovens.

Completely different principle, radiant heat versus diffusion of hot gases. The radiant heat version sucks.

Stupid idiot California government.

Those of us who like to cook (bake) with gas, which besides cooking aficiondos would include just about every commercial line cook and chef, will switch to propane before using an range electric oven.... and as you pointed out, which I do often (do it all year in our mild climate) outdoor barbecuing. Jeez, they're worried about carbon emission so they create another reason for us to BBQ more often? Silly stupid government.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Jeez, they're worried about carbon emission so they create another reason for us to BBQ more often? Silly stupid government.

I don't think they are worried about carbon emissions. You still create carbon emissions in order to create electricity, and converting gas to electricity is at best 40% efficient.

It's said never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity, but I think there's an exception to the rule when government is involved. I simply don't believe they are this incompetent. I think their underlyings are incompetent, they are oblivious, but the people doing this are not. You don't have to be smart to realize that an power plant is only around 40% efficient in generating electricity, and that there's transmission losses and then there's the efficiency loss in converting the electricity into useful work. Any junior engineer, even a high school graduate should be able to realize this.

richwicks says

I don't think they are worried about carbon emissions. You still create carbon emissions in order to create electricity, and converting gas to electricity is at best 40% efficient.

It's said never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity, but I think there's an exception to the rule when government is involved. I simply don't believe they are this incompetent. I think their underlyings are incompetent, they are oblivious, but the people doing this are not. You don't have to be smart to realize that an power plant is only around 40% efficient in generating electricity, and that there's transmission losses and then there's the efficiency loss in converting the electricity into useful work. Any junior engineer, even a high school graduate should be able to realize this.

China burns a whole lot of coal to manufacture solar panels so that Californians can smugly proclaim their electrons are all carbon free!

SunnyvaleCA says

China burns a whole lot of coal to manufacture solar panels so that Californians can smugly proclaim their electrons are all carbon free!

I know.

I think solar panels might possibly produce more energy over their lifetime than they take to manufacture. I don't believe this is true for wind turbines.

I'm all for renewable energy, if it can be made workable, and I'm not convinced it is yet. We may be (probably are) using more fossil fuels at a greater rate just to get the semblance that we are moving toward renewables. It's very frustrating, because if I talk to another engineer about this, they just say something "well, in the FUTURE is will be more efficient to manufacture..." - yeah, MAYBE it will be.

It's like using fusion power, were more energy is spent to make the fusion reaction than you can recover from the fusion reaction. That's "green energy".

WookieMan says

Not trying to incite violence, but anyone wanting to ban natural gas would have some consequences coming is all I'll say.

California is already doing it:

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-09-23/california-moves-to-ban-natural-gas-furnaces-and-heaters-by-2030

SunnyvaleCA says

I think that most people are fine with electric ovens. The big pushback is from those who like gas cooktops.

Around here, the upscale homes have a gas cooktop on the counter or island and a wall mounted electric double oven. I have never used a gas oven, but the electric oven handles tasks like a Thanksgiving turkey, pies and cakes, and even broiling teriyaki or other meats just fine. Homemade rolls also bake up great.

richwicks says

I think solar panels might possibly produce more energy over their lifetime than they take to manufacture.

I agree. I have seen several houses where solar panels cover part of a roof yet generate enough juice the net-zero the house. Life expectancy of 20 years.

Patrick says

California is already doing it:

They could do this the right way. Instead of a ban on gas water heaters, why not encourage new construction to use flash heaters at the use location? That is, only cold water is piped through the house and every sink or shower has a small electric flash heater for hot water. This would save from wasting water waiting for the hot water to come from the tank and would never run out. This concept has long been used in England in what they call "power showers."

Actually, the efficient way to do DHW is to pre-heat with waste heat, solar heat, and attic heat and store it in a substantially insulated tank. Did you know you can grab heat from the refrigerant in your AC before it hits the condenser coil via a gas to liquid heat exchanger.

Grab the heat out of your attic and ambient outside air with a heat pump when the temperature will help the temperature disposition of the house or is above the calculation to make it cheaper to run than the fuel source heat.

Then this is plumbed to through a condensing NG or LP tankless water heater that has return paths from each branch hotline. The return lines setup on a valve manifold to a return pump that activates when a user presses a button in the kitchen/bathroom or on their phone. This way there is hot water at the tap when you need it and it’s as efficient as possible. Insulate the piping as well.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Those of us who like to cook (bake) with gas, which besides cooking aficiondos would include just about every commercial line cook and chef, will switch to propane before using an range electric oven.... and as you pointed out, which I do often (do it all year in our mild climate) outdoor barbecuing. Jeez, they're worried about carbon emission so they create another reason for us to BBQ more often? Silly stupid government.

We have a double electric wall oven. I'm okay with that, but generally am not baking or heating things in the oven. Stovetop (with gas) or grill besides winter. Wife cooks in the oven as I'm actually doing it now so I'm lying to an extent. It's rare.

I'm not concerned about cooking though. Natural gas is one of the cleanest sources of fuel. Electric stovetops should have never been invented. Large propane tanks exist that last all year practically for household heating and cooking. Power goes out it can back up a generator and you can still cook food. Never be reliant 100% on an electric power grid.

Also have multiple grills. Stock up on charcoal generally Memorial Day and Labor Day weekends. I usually try to keep 6-10 bags of charcoal on hand. Still have a propane grill. Usually have 2-3 cans topped off an any time. I can use it to heat the house, yes it's an indoor safe propane heater, if the electric goes. I'd run immediately from any place that tries to stop natural gas usage. They can't stop propane, otherwise it will create a massive black market for it. Also at least a cord of firewood. You can cook, heat or do a lot a shit with wood. Never buy/rent a house without a wood burning fireplace if it gets 0ºF for a couple of days.

WookieMan says

Electric stovetops should have never been invented.

Ironic coming from rural person. The electric stovetops were part of the "all electric kitchen" that allowed rural homes to operate when the only utility available in the boonies was electricity. Those oil tanks work great for heat, but not for stoves.

HeadSet says

WookieMan says

Electric stovetops should have never been invented.

Ironic coming from rural person. The electric stovetops were part of the "all electric kitchen" that allowed rural homes to operate when the only utility available in the boonies was electricity. Those oil tanks work great for heat, but not for stoves.

I'm used to cooking on electric coils. I actually prefer it over induction heating but not over gas stovetops. Gas is the best, you can quickly cool and heat and you have pretty precise control of the heat with gas. Induction depends on what pan you are using, gas doesn't so much, other than the thickness of the pan. Electric coils have a ton of hysteresis of heat so it heats up slowly and and cools down slowly. With gas, turn the gas down, and it reduces the heat, with induction heating it's either all on or all off, with electric coils it's a middle between both, but not a good one, it's closer to induction heating.

When you remove a pan or a pot from an induction heater, you've basically turned the heat ENTIRELY off. You can't raise a pan or a pot and slightly heat it, you can with gas. I understand why chefs prefer it. You can control the heat pretty damned well. I'm not expert at it, but it's easier on gas than anything else. I hate induction stovetops.

HeadSet says

Patrick says

California is already doing it:

They could do this the right way. Instead of a ban on gas water heaters, why not encourage new construction to use flash heaters at the use location? That is, only cold water is piped through the house and every sink or shower has a small electric flash heater for hot water. This would save from wasting water waiting for the hot water to come from the tank and would never run out. This concept has long been used in England in what they call "power showers."

Germany was like that back in 1981, the first time I was there. It was quite a surprise to me that that worked just fine and you don't need a hot water tank at all.

HeadSet says

WookieMan says

Electric stovetops should have never been invented.

Ironic coming from rural person. The electric stovetops were part of the "all electric kitchen" that allowed rural homes to operate when the only utility available in the boonies was electricity. Those oil tanks work great for heat, but not for stoves.

I'm in a town of 2,000 in the middle of cornfields. Our area is a major center for natural gas pipelines given lake Michigan and having to get around it. My childhood home had a 36" pipeline 40' from my back door underground. We couldn't do an in ground pool even with proper permits. There was another one put in by my high school when I was going there. These are within 15 miles of each other. Major gas pipelines.

They have stations where they pipe it off locally. Remember gas in those lines are super pressurized. So they can get it to a town for a generally low up front cost in a 1" pipe. Once it hits the meter regulator going into your house the pressure is normalized. Otherwise you're turning your stove stop on and there's be a 3' flame.

I've done way too much research into gas... lol. Pool heaters will teach you a lot. 400k BTU. I'm a DYI guy. Pool heaters that size are $3k, then you generally are going to bury a 1" line depending on distance, maybe 1-1/2" with the regulated pressure. I had to contact the gas company to even start any of this. It's would have likely taken $10k for someone else to do it. Then you still pay for the gas and in IL that going to be $200-400/mo to heat a 26k gallon pool. So I stopped.

richwicks says

I'm used to cooking on electric coils. I actually prefer it over induction heating but not over gas stovetops. Gas is the best, you can quickly cool and heat and you have pretty precise control of the heat with gas. Induction depends on what pan you are using, gas doesn't so much, other than the thickness of the pan. Electric coils have a ton of hysteresis of heat so it heats up slowly and and cools down slowly. With gas, turn the gas down, and it reduces the heat, with induction heating it's either all on or all off, with electric coils it's a middle between both, but not a good one, it's closer to induction heating.

Agree with all this. They're older now, but my beef with the electric coils or the flat surfaces beyond cooking was a 3 or 4 year old kid putting their hand up there. I've seen it happen. They stay hot forever and unless you train them as early as possible you can walk away and 5 minutes later a kids or hell even an adult has 3rd degree burns on their hand. People use them as counter space. With gas you got the grates and those cool relatively quickly and you can't put a thing of smoked paprika on it, you have to use the counter.

We have a ton of nukes here in IL. But we also have a lot of gas power plants. I believe that's most of how CA gets their power if I recall correctly. I honestly wonder if that's the real reason for not allowing gas appliances? So PG&E or whatever your power company is gets all the gas to keep the lights on. Most people in the country know about your occasional electric issues out there. So if they siphon off the residential use they can keep the grid more stable? Just a thought. But being left coast they turn it into safety and health or some shit.

Either way propane is still good and cheap, at least here. We never had electric in any of my houses growing up or me as an adult, but stayed at places with. People would just get the propane tanks and refill them maybe twice a year. Also with winters here it's just more efficient to heat with gas. You guys generally don't deal with actual cold weather, so bumping the temp up a touch during a cold stretch with electric heaters isn't a big deal. Burning gas adds a touch of humidity to the air which make 10ºF dry days bearable.

WookieMan says

Agree with all this. They're older now, but my beef with the electric coils or the flat surfaces beyond cooking was a 3 or 4 year old kid putting their hand up there. I've seen it happen. They stay hot forever and unless you train them as early as possible you can walk away and 5 minutes later a kids or hell even an adult has 3rd degree burns on their hand.

I grew up in an all electric kitchen. I'm CERTAIN I burned myself on those coils once, but you only do that once.

WookieMan says

We have a ton of nukes here in IL. But we also have a lot of gas power plants. I believe that's most of how CA gets their power if I recall correctly. I honestly wonder if that's the real reason for not allowing gas appliances?

I think the real reason is to increase dependence. It's not about reducing energy usage, it's doing the opposite. It's probably being pushed by the natural gas industry. Electricity is the WORST way to heat your home. MAYBE with a heat pump it's about equal to natural gas.

I don't think the push to make EVERYTHING electric is being done to make the world a better place, and it doesn't have anything to do with reducing CO2 emissions. It's doing the opposite.

Indoor air quality is, ostensibly, one of the big reasons for the push against gas stoves.
Are Gas Stoves Really Causing Asthma?
A dive into the paper behind the panicked headlines.
The concern is that gas stoves emit high levels of nitrogen oxides, and those pollutants could lead to respiratory issues in children... In their case, they estimate 12.7 percent of asthma cases are caused by gas stoves.

EBGuy says

Indoor air quality is, ostensibly, one of the big reasons for the push against gas stoves.
Are Gas Stoves Really Causing Asthma?
A dive into the paper behind the panicked headlines.
The concern is that gas stoves emit high levels of nitrogen oxides, and those pollutants could lead to respiratory issues in children... In their case, they estimate 12.7 percent of asthma cases are caused by gas stoves.

Bull. Shit.

They don't care about people. If they did, they wouldn't be pushing experimental vaccines that are causing kids to have strokes and heart attacks. We all know this. They always lie about their motivations.

The vaccines aren't just about money either. If they were, they'd just use some injection that has a bunch of bullshit in it, that is completely safe.

WookieMan says

Why would you guys live in CA and even think about this? I'm cooking with gas.

I'm cooking with gas too. This is non-issue now and there is no guarantee it will be an issue later. (Especially taking into account the recent court decision overturning Berkeleys' attempted ban on gas lines for new buildings). The OP just likes to spread FUD and preach doom&gloom in the US (while prising shitholes like CCCP or Quaddafi's Lybia).

Eric Holder says

WookieMan says

Why would you guys live in CA and even think about this? I'm cooking with gas.

I'm cooking with gas too. This is non-issue now and there is no guarantee it will be an issue later. (Especially taking into account the recent court decision overturning Berkeleys' attempted ban on gas lines for new buildings). The OP just likes to spread FUD and preach doom&gloom in the US (while prising shitholes like CCCP or Quaddafi's Lybia).

I'm just pointing out there's a solution if this artificial problem happens, and it has happened. Denial of this is just, wrong.

Producing hydrogen is easy, but you'd ONLY do this for chefs, and it's EXTREMELY inefficient to do it this way, but it's not like the cost of food is very much effected by the cost of heating. A quick estimate is about 30% efficient, which is terrible, but easy to do.

WookieMan says

Why would you guys live in CA and even think about this?

Cal Gov is asshoe.

Surprised the solar oven (or solar cooker) has not caught on. It is a large reflective cone with the bottom half cut off, so that it is a ring that reflects sunlight onto a concentrated area. Totally free on a sunny day. There are other configurations, but all basically reflect sunlight into a small area. Walmart and Target sell them.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/FETCOI-Portable-Solar-Cooker-150cm-Diameter-Camping-Outdoor-Parabolic-Sun-Oven-Heat-NEW/1415477824?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=101082135&adid=22222222222000000000&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=e&wl1=o&wl2=c&wl3=10352200394&wl4=pla-1103028060075%3Aaud-807615483&wl5=&wl6=&wl7=&wl10=Walmart&wl11=Online&wl12=1415477824_10001101506&wl14=solar+oven&veh=sem&gclid=ee279d7be41b17546046f91e9b5ba190&gclsrc=3p.ds&msclkid=ee279d7be41b17546046f91e9b5ba190

EBGuy says

Indoor air quality is, ostensibly, one of the big reasons for the push against gas stoves.
Are Gas Stoves Really Causing Asthma?
A dive into the paper behind the panicked headlines.
The concern is that gas stoves emit high levels of nitrogen oxides, and those pollutants could lead to respiratory issues in children... In their case, they estimate 12.7 percent of asthma cases are caused by gas stoves.

But it's OK for parents to smoke cigarettes inside their homes.

EBGuy says

Indoor air quality is, ostensibly, one of the big reasons for the push against gas stoves.
Are Gas Stoves Really Causing Asthma?
A dive into the paper behind the panicked headlines.
The concern is that gas stoves emit high levels of nitrogen oxides, and those pollutants could lead to respiratory issues in children... In their case, they estimate 12.7 percent of asthma cases are caused by gas stoves.

Because their operators are too stupid to turn on the stove hood and exhaust the emissions. Operator error.

B.A.C.A.H. says

But it's OK for parents to smoke cigarettes inside their homes.

Valid point. Former smoker as I've mentioned. I've never smoked in an enclosed area with my kids. Not a joke, but the people we have over that still smoke outside, there is a designated spot for it. I put ash trays out and certain people still just throw them on the ground. I'm not judging them, but at least don't litter my damn yard. It took 2 years to full get over cravings, year 7 now. I don't miss that habit at all or have any cravings after those first 2. Number 1 dumbest decision of my life. Took 4 times.

Gas stoves have nothing to do with asthma from your quoted comment. Not directed at you BACAH. But outside of extremely rare cases asthma is generally a made up illness in my mind. My nephew that lives with us "supposedly" has it. My SIL was doing doctors visits and then I started doing them. Doc said he was fine.

It's a women illness for their kids because they're scared every time they cough or seem to have labored breathing. Sexist as hell, but it's fact. Munchausen syndrome by the mother on their child. Before taking him in I camped with him and my boys. My SIL mentioned nothing about meds. So he didn't take them for a week. Emergency inhaler and all this other shit. He didn't need it. He has pollen allergies..... our car was covered in pollen. Car wash level pollen. Coughed a bit, but no issues.

Another reason I don't trust the medical field and wouldn't trust any study on natural gas "causing" asthma. We'd all need inhalers if that were true. It's not. Until we all realize that everything and I mean everything is set up to extract money from you, you aren't going to live a happy life. Doctors don't care. I've yet to meet an honest one. Or find a study that's not massively biased and flawed like natural gas causing asthma.

Asbestos, lead paint, etc. was killing everyone while our life expectancy has slowed but it was steadily increasing during those times. So blame natural gas..... or covid. https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/life-expectancy

WookieMan says

Gas stoves have nothing to do with asthma from your quoted comment. Not directed at you BACAH. But outside of extremely rare cases asthma is generally a made up illness in my mind. My nephew that lives with us "supposedly" has it. My SIL was doing doctors visits and then I started doing them. Doc said he was fine.

As a kid, I frequently got bronchitis, that's totally real. My throat would swell up, and I would wake up in the middle of the night having difficulty breathing. By the time I was 4, I knew to go to a sink, run hot water, and inhale the steam, and that would alleviate it. I remember the panic it caused me because it felt like I was suffocating.

I don't know why inhaling water vapor alleviated it, but it does. I've not experienced it since I was a teenager. Wouldn't be surprised to go through it again as an old man though.

WookieMan says

Doctors don't care. I've yet to meet an honest one.

There are honest vets. My vet was a good doctor.