patrick.net
An Antidote to Corporate Media
1,234,139 comments by 14,750 users - Al_Sharpton_for_President, RWSGFY online now
True cost of charging an EV is equivalent to paying $17.33 a gallon.
invite response
2023 Dec 15, 6:13am 7,462 views 131 comments
by GNL ➕follow (0) 💰tip ignore
« First « Previous Comments 29 - 68 of 131 Next » Last » Search these comments
29
socal2
2023 Dec 15, 4:37pm
WookieMan says
Who are you arguing with? I agree that they will increase registration and other fees on EV's as more and more cars go electric. I think it is fair.
My point is that the Tesla Model 3 is ALREADY cheaper than most ICE cars in the same class even before incentives. And the prices for Tesla will continue to drop as they increase scale.
What they have done at Tesla is truly an engineering marvel in terms of manufacturing.
Roads pave themselves? Jesus I thought I've heard it all. 50% of people pay no federal or state income taxes. Our infrastructure is financed by a large margin by MFT's. If 10% of cars aren't paying that tax, they will. It's coming. Like I've said, enjoy it for now.
Who are you arguing with? I agree that they will increase registration and other fees on EV's as more and more cars go electric. I think it is fair.
My point is that the Tesla Model 3 is ALREADY cheaper than most ICE cars in the same class even before incentives. And the prices for Tesla will continue to drop as they increase scale.
What they have done at Tesla is truly an engineering marvel in terms of manufacturing.
30
WookieMan
2023 Dec 15, 4:49pm
WookieMan
2023 Dec 15, 4:49pm
socal2 says
100% not true. Also most Americans don't want that class of car. Maybe city dwellers driving 10 miles a day. People that don't want to live in the ghetto want a functional car with utility. Tesla doesn't offer that. I'm not talking a F-350 or something either, but a car that can carry people and tow a trailer.
I don't know if it was in this thread or another. Tesla is 1,000% a golf cart dude, on an ICE designed frame and chassis. There are no engineering marvels. My friend and neighbor is a top Toyota Exec. Tesla made a fancy golf cart that is fun to drive. Great torque and acceleration. Crappy range. 90% the same parts as an ICE vehicle that need replacement and maintenance. I don't get where you're going. Enjoy it. It is more expensive and "fuel" for certain will be more expensive in the near future.
My point is that the Tesla Model 3 is ALREADY cheaper than most ICE cars in the same class even before incentives. And the prices for Tesla will continue to drop as they increase scale.
100% not true. Also most Americans don't want that class of car. Maybe city dwellers driving 10 miles a day. People that don't want to live in the ghetto want a functional car with utility. Tesla doesn't offer that. I'm not talking a F-350 or something either, but a car that can carry people and tow a trailer.
I don't know if it was in this thread or another. Tesla is 1,000% a golf cart dude, on an ICE designed frame and chassis. There are no engineering marvels. My friend and neighbor is a top Toyota Exec. Tesla made a fancy golf cart that is fun to drive. Great torque and acceleration. Crappy range. 90% the same parts as an ICE vehicle that need replacement and maintenance. I don't get where you're going. Enjoy it. It is more expensive and "fuel" for certain will be more expensive in the near future.
31
DeficitHawk
2023 Dec 15, 5:14pm
WookieMan says
Thats true for sure. EV's are avoiding gas tax, so that has to be made up somewhere, or the roads wont get maintained. Some states are adding this as fees to the registration for EVs. Maybe other states will find other ways to assess this tax, or maybe some will just hike the liquid fuels tax and stick it to the people still running ICE cars.
But gas tax is less than a dollar per gallon most places. Nowhere near enough to explain the OP's $17.33 per gallon number.
Its fine to say you dont agree with this or that subsidy. Its fine if you dont want an EV. Its fine to say you want EV drivers to pay their fair share of road maintenance like the gas buyers do. Doesn't make the OP's claim true.
If 10% of cars aren't paying that tax, they will. It's coming.
Thats true for sure. EV's are avoiding gas tax, so that has to be made up somewhere, or the roads wont get maintained. Some states are adding this as fees to the registration for EVs. Maybe other states will find other ways to assess this tax, or maybe some will just hike the liquid fuels tax and stick it to the people still running ICE cars.
But gas tax is less than a dollar per gallon most places. Nowhere near enough to explain the OP's $17.33 per gallon number.
Its fine to say you dont agree with this or that subsidy. Its fine if you dont want an EV. Its fine to say you want EV drivers to pay their fair share of road maintenance like the gas buyers do. Doesn't make the OP's claim true.
32
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2023 Dec 15, 6:00pm
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2023 Dec 15, 6:00pm
socal2 says
What incentives?
My point is that the Tesla Model 3 is ALREADY cheaper than most ICE cars in the same class even before incentives
What incentives?
33
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2023 Dec 15, 6:02pm
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2023 Dec 15, 6:02pm
socal2 says
And the electric grid infrastructure? That is paid by RATEPAYERS, not taxpayers or just EV owners (where it should).
Who are you arguing with? I agree that they will increase registration and other fees on EV's as more and more cars go electric. I think it is fair.
And the electric grid infrastructure? That is paid by RATEPAYERS, not taxpayers or just EV owners (where it should).
34
RWSGFY
2023 Dec 15, 8:28pm
RWSGFY
2023 Dec 15, 8:28pm
PumpingRedheads says
$7500 Fed and up to $4000 CA.
socal2 says
My point is that the Tesla Model 3 is ALREADY cheaper than most ICE cars in the same class even before incentives
What incentives?
$7500 Fed and up to $4000 CA.
35
Eman
2023 Dec 15, 10:05pm
Eman
2023 Dec 15, 10:05pm
I suggest we do what we can control. Tesla offers me, an early adopter, to buy, or trade in my car, for a new car, and continue to get free supercharging for life, and also get $1k off in addition to $7.5k tax credit, and whatever rebates CA has to offer.
I installed a solar system in mid July that generates 500 kWh in excess per month on average so I can run the A/C in the summer and can also accommodate another EV when we add the 3rd one to the household.
Of course, PG&E charges about 37 cents/day to use their grid, which is fair.
I installed a solar system in mid July that generates 500 kWh in excess per month on average so I can run the A/C in the summer and can also accommodate another EV when we add the 3rd one to the household.
Of course, PG&E charges about 37 cents/day to use their grid, which is fair.
36
Eman
2023 Dec 15, 10:13pm
Eman
2023 Dec 15, 10:13pm
We use the supercharger network when we travel. Otherwise, plug the car in when get home, and it’s full the next morning.
37
Eman
2023 Dec 15, 10:17pm
Eman
2023 Dec 15, 10:17pm
A brand new Model Y long range costs $49k before $7.5k tax credit plus state and local rebates. Battery and power train are guaranteed for 8 years by Tesla. Cost of electricity is known and varies by location. Not sure how the author came up with $17.33/gallon equivalent.
If the author is going to compare the EV to others, compare it to something that is equivalent to and its performance and class.
If the author is going to compare the EV to others, compare it to something that is equivalent to and its performance and class.
38
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2023 Dec 15, 10:52pm
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2023 Dec 15, 10:52pm
RWSGFY says
But socal2 said he didn't get any subsidies for his Tesla, remember?
Was he lying?
PumpingRedheads says
$7500 Fed and up to $4000 CA
But socal2 said he didn't get any subsidies for his Tesla, remember?
Was he lying?
PumpingRedheads says
socal2 says
I didn't get any subsidies for my Tesla
Uhhhhhhj....right
39
Eman
2023 Dec 16, 12:03am
Eman
2023 Dec 16, 12:03am
PumpingRedheads says
There was no subsidies for Tesla in 2021 and 2022 if I recalled correctly. $7.5k tax credit is available in 2023 and beyond due to the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA). The same with state and local rebates, etc….
RWSGFY says
$7500 Fed and up to $4000 CA
But socal2 said he didn't get any subsidies for his Tesla, remember?
Was he lying?
PumpingRedheads says
socal2 says
I didn't get any subsidies for my Tesla
Uhhhhhhj....right
There was no subsidies for Tesla in 2021 and 2022 if I recalled correctly. $7.5k tax credit is available in 2023 and beyond due to the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA). The same with state and local rebates, etc….
40
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 16, 5:48am
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 16, 5:48am
Here is the original article Olivia wrote:
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2023/10/true_costs_of_evs_revealed_by_bombshell_report_out_of_a_texas_think_tank.html
The argument that the “bombshell report” seems to be making is that when the subsidies that EV car manufacturers and EV car owners are getting are all added up over a 10 year period (this includes the money spent on charging stations and building out the infrastructure of the power grid to make those chargers possible, it includes calculations to measure the burden/unseen subsidy that everyone else pays due to EV owners using the roads and other public services such as highway patrol but accounts for the fact that EV owners are NOT paying the gas taxes that support roads and services).... the EV will actually represent a true cost of operation all other things being equal like miles driven over that 10 years, of $50,000 more than a similar ICE vehicle.
My understanding is that one way to arrive at their 17.33 per gallon figure is some simple math. To estimate the true cost of electric vehicles, which includes the cost of building them, the cost of charging them, repairing them, building infrastructure to charge and repair them, and the costs associated with wear and tear and patrolling the roads that EV use: they could just take that $50,000 and divide it by the number of miles driven by the average ICE car over the same 10 year period. From there you can extrapolate that excess cost of EV’s to the economy/infrastructure in terms of how much that excess cost breaks down per mile driven over those 10 years. From there that figure can be expressed as a cost per gallon of gas to allow us to understand how much more expensive the EV actually is to operate on a daily basis (which is hard for the EV owner to grasp because they are so heavily subsidized). The point that the article is making is not that owning an EV is more expensive for the consumer in 2023 necessarily. The point is that EV are so heavily subsidized by government and everyone else that EV owners don’t realize driving their “green” vehicle is costing them plus society the equivalent of $17.33 per gallon for them to drive. It is not sustainable.
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2023/10/true_costs_of_evs_revealed_by_bombshell_report_out_of_a_texas_think_tank.html
The argument that the “bombshell report” seems to be making is that when the subsidies that EV car manufacturers and EV car owners are getting are all added up over a 10 year period (this includes the money spent on charging stations and building out the infrastructure of the power grid to make those chargers possible, it includes calculations to measure the burden/unseen subsidy that everyone else pays due to EV owners using the roads and other public services such as highway patrol but accounts for the fact that EV owners are NOT paying the gas taxes that support roads and services).... the EV will actually represent a true cost of operation all other things being equal like miles driven over that 10 years, of $50,000 more than a similar ICE vehicle.
My understanding is that one way to arrive at their 17.33 per gallon figure is some simple math. To estimate the true cost of electric vehicles, which includes the cost of building them, the cost of charging them, repairing them, building infrastructure to charge and repair them, and the costs associated with wear and tear and patrolling the roads that EV use: they could just take that $50,000 and divide it by the number of miles driven by the average ICE car over the same 10 year period. From there you can extrapolate that excess cost of EV’s to the economy/infrastructure in terms of how much that excess cost breaks down per mile driven over those 10 years. From there that figure can be expressed as a cost per gallon of gas to allow us to understand how much more expensive the EV actually is to operate on a daily basis (which is hard for the EV owner to grasp because they are so heavily subsidized). The point that the article is making is not that owning an EV is more expensive for the consumer in 2023 necessarily. The point is that EV are so heavily subsidized by government and everyone else that EV owners don’t realize driving their “green” vehicle is costing them plus society the equivalent of $17.33 per gallon for them to drive. It is not sustainable.
41
GNL
2023 Dec 16, 6:39am
GNL
2023 Dec 16, 6:39am
As society solves more and more problems, gets more and more efficient and bringing costs down via automation etc., money "needs" a new vehicle of growth. I think this whole Green push is simply about change. Change can create a new vehicle to wealth. Imagine if you have the power to impose regulations/laws. Now imagine that you could frontrun these new regulations and laws. How much wealth do you think you could generate? It's exaclty like insider information where you can pay $10 for a stock and in short order sell that stock for $100 or $1,000. Change all by itself can generate vast sums of money creation/movement. Even just the movement of money can generate a ton of wealth. Wall Street can make money no matter which way the market moves. It is only important the the market moves.
42
WookieMan
2023 Dec 16, 7:19am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 16, 7:19am
It's not feasible guys. I think you know that. That's the point. The day of reckoning will come. You can show bills and say it costs you x, y and z. It does. Not for long.
My wife works in this industry, I know half the people she knows. Your cheap EV days are 100% coming to an end. I'm predicting by 2025. Either through utilities or an MFT registration tax. This is 100% being talked about. It's highly likely they will be MORE expensive to operate than ICE vehicles. We have the oil infrastructure and refineries for 100 years now Our electric grid 100% cannot handle a doubling of EV's hitting the road and needing a charge. This isn't even debatable.
Again, enjoy it now. You already bought an overpriced car and now the daily cost of running it will go through the roof. Call me out in the future. I know I won't be wrong.
My wife works in this industry, I know half the people she knows. Your cheap EV days are 100% coming to an end. I'm predicting by 2025. Either through utilities or an MFT registration tax. This is 100% being talked about. It's highly likely they will be MORE expensive to operate than ICE vehicles. We have the oil infrastructure and refineries for 100 years now Our electric grid 100% cannot handle a doubling of EV's hitting the road and needing a charge. This isn't even debatable.
Again, enjoy it now. You already bought an overpriced car and now the daily cost of running it will go through the roof. Call me out in the future. I know I won't be wrong.
43
Eman
2023 Dec 16, 7:31am
Eman
2023 Dec 16, 7:31am
WookieMan says
Based on what I know today, you will be wrong. Looking forward to 2025.
I’ve owned my EV for more than 6 years. Have been enjoying it, not just now. My wife also went EV 1.5 years ago. Also been enjoying it. We’re not going back to ICE cars, and we’re not greenies.
It's not feasible guys. I think you know that. That's the point. The day of reckoning will come. You can show bills and say it costs you x, y and z. It does. Not for long.
My wife works in this industry, I know half the people she knows. Your cheap EV days are 100% coming to an end. I'm predicting by 2025. Either through utilities or an MFT registration tax. This is 100% being talked about. It's highly likely they will be MORE expensive to operate than ICE vehicles. We have the oil infrastructure and refineries for 100 years now Our electric grid 100% cannot handle a doubling of EV's hitting the road and needing a charge. This isn't even debatable.
Again, enjoy it now. You already bought an overpriced car and now the daily cost of running it will go through the roof. Call me out in the future. I know I won't be wrong.
Based on what I know today, you will be wrong. Looking forward to 2025.
I’ve owned my EV for more than 6 years. Have been enjoying it, not just now. My wife also went EV 1.5 years ago. Also been enjoying it. We’re not going back to ICE cars, and we’re not greenies.
44
socal2
2023 Dec 16, 9:11am
PumpingRedheads says
I got my car in 2020 when there weren't any subsidies for the Model Y.
That's why.
I paid full freight.
But socal2 said he didn't get any subsidies for his Tesla, remember?
Was he lying?
I got my car in 2020 when there weren't any subsidies for the Model Y.
That's why.
I paid full freight.
45
HeadSet
2023 Dec 16, 9:18am
HeadSet
2023 Dec 16, 9:18am
WookieMan says
Are mandates for electric cars being removed? The only reason for mandates is because the ICE cars will not die off on their own. True, the grid cannot handle the nation transitioning to all EV, but that is solved by making EVs more expensive though taxes and electricity costs. The goal of the WEF types is to stop the public from driving, period. If mandating EVs does not put personal transportation costs too high for mass use, then "self driving" mandates are next. When cars cost over $150k, only the rich and politically connected will drive, sorta like how private jets are now. The general public will ride the bus or use an irregular route shared ride Uber like service. Everyone seems to be missing the point that mandating EVs and outlawing ICE is not about carbon, it is about getting the public off the roads.
It's highly likely they will be MORE expensive to operate than ICE vehicles. We have the oil infrastructure and refineries for 100 years now Our electric grid 100% cannot handle a doubling of EV's hitting the road and needing a charge. This isn't even debatable.
Are mandates for electric cars being removed? The only reason for mandates is because the ICE cars will not die off on their own. True, the grid cannot handle the nation transitioning to all EV, but that is solved by making EVs more expensive though taxes and electricity costs. The goal of the WEF types is to stop the public from driving, period. If mandating EVs does not put personal transportation costs too high for mass use, then "self driving" mandates are next. When cars cost over $150k, only the rich and politically connected will drive, sorta like how private jets are now. The general public will ride the bus or use an irregular route shared ride Uber like service. Everyone seems to be missing the point that mandating EVs and outlawing ICE is not about carbon, it is about getting the public off the roads.
46
socal2
2023 Dec 16, 9:24am
WookieMan says
A Toyota Exec bad mouthing Tesla? Wonders never cease! : )
Seriously man, I know I come off as a total Tesla douche fanboy here. But I am telling you, Tesla technology (specifically their manufacturing) is next fucking level and is industry changing. No one can catch them.
Tesla already has record profits on every car they produce (even without subsidies) and they have 2 shiny brand new mega-factories in Texas and Germany that are just beginning to ramp up to scale with more factories in the works in Mexico and elsewhere.
Still not too late to invest in this solid American company!
esla is 1,000% a golf cart dude, on an ICE designed frame and chassis. There are no engineering marvels. My friend and neighbor is a top Toyota Exec. Tesla made a fancy golf cart that is fun to drive.
A Toyota Exec bad mouthing Tesla? Wonders never cease! : )
Seriously man, I know I come off as a total Tesla douche fanboy here. But I am telling you, Tesla technology (specifically their manufacturing) is next fucking level and is industry changing. No one can catch them.
Tesla already has record profits on every car they produce (even without subsidies) and they have 2 shiny brand new mega-factories in Texas and Germany that are just beginning to ramp up to scale with more factories in the works in Mexico and elsewhere.
Still not too late to invest in this solid American company!
47
socal2
2023 Dec 16, 9:30am
HeadSet says
That is not going to happen. Tesla's whole mission is to build affordable EV's at scale.
Tesla will be producing a $25K version in the next few years.
Tesla's most expensive cars (before Cybertruck) the Model X and S have dropped to $79K and are faster than $250K super cars.
When cars cost over $150k, only the rich and politically connected will drive, sorta like how private jets are now.
That is not going to happen. Tesla's whole mission is to build affordable EV's at scale.
Tesla will be producing a $25K version in the next few years.
Tesla's most expensive cars (before Cybertruck) the Model X and S have dropped to $79K and are faster than $250K super cars.
48
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 16, 9:35am
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 16, 9:35am
HeadSet says
Translation: The globalists want everyone (besides the uber wealthy Soros and Gates types) to live “15 minute cities” where people are essentially prisoners who are given privileges in exchange for giving up all freedom and autonomy. People will own nothing and pretend to be happy or they won’t eat at all.
I’m actually in favor of using electric vehicles where they make sense. But for most drivers they don’t make sense. Most drivers are dollars and hours ahead per year by driving a used efficient ICE car. This is especially true the older the EV is, the colder the weather is and for trips greater than 300 miles or the more towing you need to do with your vehicle.
Everyone seems to be missing the point that mandating EVs and outlawing ICE is not about carbon, it is about getting the public off the roads.
Translation: The globalists want everyone (besides the uber wealthy Soros and Gates types) to live “15 minute cities” where people are essentially prisoners who are given privileges in exchange for giving up all freedom and autonomy. People will own nothing and pretend to be happy or they won’t eat at all.
I’m actually in favor of using electric vehicles where they make sense. But for most drivers they don’t make sense. Most drivers are dollars and hours ahead per year by driving a used efficient ICE car. This is especially true the older the EV is, the colder the weather is and for trips greater than 300 miles or the more towing you need to do with your vehicle.
49
WookieMan
2023 Dec 16, 9:38am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 16, 9:38am
Eman says
I'm not saying any individual on this site is a greenie. By default you've attached yourself to that group however you want to look at it. Even if you were I wouldn't care. I'm talking numbers.
I'll stand by my statement/prediction. Call me out and mark it on your calendar. It won't be a nationwide thing out the gate. But 2025 mark this comment and understand that states and utilities we'll start taxing EV's out the ass. It's a when, not if. 100%.
I know the $$$ amounts municipalities, cities and state generate on MFT's. A 1% gain in EV's is not a 1% loss in MFT. It's closer to 5-10%. And the same amount of cars are wearing down the roads. If we go from 3% to 6% EV's in that time we're talking close to a 20% loss in MFT. Now factor in the grid. Now factor in profits. We pay X amount for ICE vehicles for gas. If we pay that corporations and government WILL get their money from EV's. You're fooling yourself if you don't see it coming.
Again, enjoy it now. I don't blame you or have issue with it. I'm just giving y'all a warning that the glory days are coming to an end.
Based on what I know today, you will be wrong. Looking forward to 2025.
I’ve owned my EV for more than 6 years. Have been enjoying it, not just now. My wife also went EV 1.5 years ago. Also been enjoying it. We’re not going back to ICE cars, and we’re not greenies.
I'm not saying any individual on this site is a greenie. By default you've attached yourself to that group however you want to look at it. Even if you were I wouldn't care. I'm talking numbers.
I'll stand by my statement/prediction. Call me out and mark it on your calendar. It won't be a nationwide thing out the gate. But 2025 mark this comment and understand that states and utilities we'll start taxing EV's out the ass. It's a when, not if. 100%.
I know the $$$ amounts municipalities, cities and state generate on MFT's. A 1% gain in EV's is not a 1% loss in MFT. It's closer to 5-10%. And the same amount of cars are wearing down the roads. If we go from 3% to 6% EV's in that time we're talking close to a 20% loss in MFT. Now factor in the grid. Now factor in profits. We pay X amount for ICE vehicles for gas. If we pay that corporations and government WILL get their money from EV's. You're fooling yourself if you don't see it coming.
Again, enjoy it now. I don't blame you or have issue with it. I'm just giving y'all a warning that the glory days are coming to an end.
50
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 16, 9:44am
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 16, 9:44am
socal2 says
We’ve been hearing about the low cost commuter for years and it always ends up taking longer and costing more than promised. Remember Elio motors?
Now they are claiming they have redesigned their prototype into an EV too.
https://www.eliomotors.com/
No doubt more and more people and companies will be driving EV as years go by. But it is doubtful that the average consumer will find it cheaper to go from a to b when all is said and done. ICE, EV, and hybrids are all going to cost more to drive, exactly as the globalists have planned.
Tesla will be producing a $25K version in the next few years.
We’ve been hearing about the low cost commuter for years and it always ends up taking longer and costing more than promised. Remember Elio motors?
Now they are claiming they have redesigned their prototype into an EV too.
https://www.eliomotors.com/
No doubt more and more people and companies will be driving EV as years go by. But it is doubtful that the average consumer will find it cheaper to go from a to b when all is said and done. ICE, EV, and hybrids are all going to cost more to drive, exactly as the globalists have planned.
51
RWSGFY
2023 Dec 16, 9:53am
RWSGFY
2023 Dec 16, 9:53am
PumpingRedheads says
He could also be too rich to qualify. Don't remember the cut-off for singles, but MFJ get bupkes once over $300K AGI.
UPD. He explained it.
RWSGFY says
$7500 Fed and up to $4000 CA
But socal2 said he didn't get any subsidies for his Tesla, remember?
Was he lying?
PumpingRedheads says
socal2 says
I didn't get any subsidies for my Tesla
Uhhhhhhj....right
He could also be too rich to qualify. Don't remember the cut-off for singles, but MFJ get bupkes once over $300K AGI.
UPD. He explained it.
52
Eman
2023 Dec 16, 9:59am
Eman
2023 Dec 16, 9:59am
My point is the government will do what they’ll do. The author is using funny and one way math to come up with her result. People compare a performance car to a turtle car and say why it’s not wise to by an EV. Just like telling someone who drives a Bugatti Chiron or a Rolls Royce they’re stupid for spending $3.5M to get from point A to point B when a Prius will do. This is why the average is average for a reason. They cannot get out of their own way.
My point is we do what we can control. If there are tax credits and incentives to be had and we can obtain them legally, why not? If PG&E keeps raising their electricity rates, figure out a way to go off-grid.
One of the perks of being a real estate investor is that you work on your own schedule. You get to write off literally everything while you hardly pay any taxes due to phantom losses while the tenants are paying off your assets. One doesn’t have to be a rocket science to figure this out.
My point is we do what we can control. If there are tax credits and incentives to be had and we can obtain them legally, why not? If PG&E keeps raising their electricity rates, figure out a way to go off-grid.
One of the perks of being a real estate investor is that you work on your own schedule. You get to write off literally everything while you hardly pay any taxes due to phantom losses while the tenants are paying off your assets. One doesn’t have to be a rocket science to figure this out.
53
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 16, 11:08am
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 16, 11:08am
Eman says
So when government is stupid and wasting money on counterproductive “green technology” your point is that savvy people will take advantage of it. That’s pretty much a given.
But it doesn’t change the math. Batteries simply are not the best store of energy for transportation needs. Gasoline and diesel are still far superior stores of energy for many if not most peoples purposes.
Eman says
Once again your point is that savvy people know how to make the most of a corrupt/stacked deck. It doesn’t mean the system isn’t broken, it just means the people who know how to take advantage of the rigged game can almost always come out ahead.
My point is the government will do what they’ll do.
So when government is stupid and wasting money on counterproductive “green technology” your point is that savvy people will take advantage of it. That’s pretty much a given.
But it doesn’t change the math. Batteries simply are not the best store of energy for transportation needs. Gasoline and diesel are still far superior stores of energy for many if not most peoples purposes.
Eman says
One of the perks of being a real estate investor is that you work on your own schedule. You get to write off literally everything while you hardly pay any taxes due to phantom losses while the tenants are paying off your assets. One doesn’t have to be a rocket science to figure this out.
Once again your point is that savvy people know how to make the most of a corrupt/stacked deck. It doesn’t mean the system isn’t broken, it just means the people who know how to take advantage of the rigged game can almost always come out ahead.
54
HeadSet
2023 Dec 16, 12:53pm
HeadSet
2023 Dec 16, 12:53pm
socal2 says
Yes, Tesla will work to produce a low sticker price car. I am saying mandates like requiring full self drive will drive the price to $150k. Now add any use fees and mileage taxes. The goal of the WEF types is to price people of the road. Why else are there EV mandates? If EVs are getting cheaper and better, people would buy them anyway. The goal is to mandate universal EV adoption which is grid unsupportable unless we have much fewer drivers while removing the cheap and sustainable ICE cars that have everyone on the road.
HeadSet says
When cars cost over $150k, only the rich and politically connected will drive, sorta like how private jets are now.
That is not going to happen. Tesla's whole mission is to build affordable EV's at scale.
Tesla will be producing a $25K version in the next few years.
Tesla's most expensive cars (before Cybertruck) the Model X and S have dropped to $79K and are faster than $250K super cars.
Yes, Tesla will work to produce a low sticker price car. I am saying mandates like requiring full self drive will drive the price to $150k. Now add any use fees and mileage taxes. The goal of the WEF types is to price people of the road. Why else are there EV mandates? If EVs are getting cheaper and better, people would buy them anyway. The goal is to mandate universal EV adoption which is grid unsupportable unless we have much fewer drivers while removing the cheap and sustainable ICE cars that have everyone on the road.
55
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 16, 3:46pm
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 16, 3:46pm
socal2 says
Fixed it for you.
By the way the rapid acceleration while I’m sure is fun to experience is probably not safe for most drivers nor is it practical in traffic. Plus rapid acceleration is wearing out tires and increasing cost of ownership for EV drivers.
https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/electric-vehicles/ev-tires-wear-down-fast-and-thats-a-pollution-problem
https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/electric-vehicle-tires-wear-out/
Tesla's most expensive cars (before Cybertruck) the Model X and S have dropped to $79K and allegedly accelerate faster than $250K super cars.
Fixed it for you.
By the way the rapid acceleration while I’m sure is fun to experience is probably not safe for most drivers nor is it practical in traffic. Plus rapid acceleration is wearing out tires and increasing cost of ownership for EV drivers.
https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/electric-vehicles/ev-tires-wear-down-fast-and-thats-a-pollution-problem
https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/electric-vehicle-tires-wear-out/
57
Eman
2023 Dec 17, 12:02pm
Eman
2023 Dec 17, 12:02pm
@PeopleUnited,
It has nothing to do with smart or savvy, but rather the willingness to play the game based on the established rules.
Here’s a HS dropout who used to make $8.25/hour and now make $4M/year. Is he smart or savvy? 🤷♂️
https://youtube.com/shorts/ctoLJvY4vfA?si=Y2wPTXgpDQfkRAj3
This is Sean, who is a EE graduate from UCLA, and also decided he wanted more out of life than settling for a W2. He also made it in real estate and social media and got out of the W2 world. Is Sean smart or savvy? 🤷♂️
https://youtube.com/shorts/BESvxL8LTlc?si=EHFs9ftwovY7JBQE
I know both of them personally and have watched them grow over the years. Two different personalities. Both are great kids.
It has nothing to do with smart or savvy, but rather the willingness to play the game based on the established rules.
Here’s a HS dropout who used to make $8.25/hour and now make $4M/year. Is he smart or savvy? 🤷♂️
https://youtube.com/shorts/ctoLJvY4vfA?si=Y2wPTXgpDQfkRAj3
This is Sean, who is a EE graduate from UCLA, and also decided he wanted more out of life than settling for a W2. He also made it in real estate and social media and got out of the W2 world. Is Sean smart or savvy? 🤷♂️
https://youtube.com/shorts/BESvxL8LTlc?si=EHFs9ftwovY7JBQE
I know both of them personally and have watched them grow over the years. Two different personalities. Both are great kids.
58
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 17, 5:50pm
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 17, 5:50pm
Playing the game with success is both smart and savvy.
I’m sure you all earned your wealth and privilege. America is the land of opportunity. There’s room at the top they’re telling us still...
Really there is no reason we shouldn’t be driving Tesla’s and living off our investment property. When you play the game everyone wins right?
I’m sure you all earned your wealth and privilege. America is the land of opportunity. There’s room at the top they’re telling us still...
Really there is no reason we shouldn’t be driving Tesla’s and living off our investment property. When you play the game everyone wins right?
59
Eman
2023 Dec 17, 6:04pm
Eman
2023 Dec 17, 6:04pm
If you don’t like the game, can you change it? If you can’t change it, bitching doesn’t do anything and may affect your health.
America is not perfect, but she has proven herself to be the land of opportunity for millions of people. The majority people in the world want a chance to live in this prosperous country.
Driving a Tesla, a Ferrari, or a Prius is irrelevant. People drive whatever they like, or can afford, or fit their needs. Investment is just a vehicle to help us reach our goals. Having investments that allows us to the freedom to do whatever we want with our time is one of the ultimate goal for most people.
Who the hell wants to slave away 8-10 hours a day on a job they don’t care for so they can have 2 weeks vacation a year? Do that for 45 years and retire with not enough money to do what they want to do in old age?
America is not perfect, but she has proven herself to be the land of opportunity for millions of people. The majority people in the world want a chance to live in this prosperous country.
Driving a Tesla, a Ferrari, or a Prius is irrelevant. People drive whatever they like, or can afford, or fit their needs. Investment is just a vehicle to help us reach our goals. Having investments that allows us to the freedom to do whatever we want with our time is one of the ultimate goal for most people.
Who the hell wants to slave away 8-10 hours a day on a job they don’t care for so they can have 2 weeks vacation a year? Do that for 45 years and retire with not enough money to do what they want to do in old age?
60
Eman
2023 Dec 17, 6:08pm
Eman
2023 Dec 17, 6:08pm
Embrace what we have. Go after what we want/desire. None of us gets out of this place alive so what do we have to lose? If we’re lucky, we make it and get to enjoy what life has to offer while we still have youth in us.
If our kids and grandkids are lucky, we’ve built enough wealth to pass down to their generations where they can enjoy life while doing what they love instead of exchanging time for money in a job they don’t care for.
If our kids and grandkids are lucky, we’ve built enough wealth to pass down to their generations where they can enjoy life while doing what they love instead of exchanging time for money in a job they don’t care for.
61
Eman
2023 Dec 17, 6:12pm
Eman
2023 Dec 17, 6:12pm
In 2012, Clem Stein, a successful Bay Area real estate investor, told me it’s ok to tell your kids they’re stupid. If they’re smart, they will spend their lives proving you wrong and becoming wildly successful. If they’re truly stupid, you have nothing to lose.
Although I didn’t agree with what he said, I thought it was thought provoking. I shared what he said with the siblings. Everyone disagreed with his approach. 😂
RIP Clem! Your shared wisdoms live on through me and many others.
Although I didn’t agree with what he said, I thought it was thought provoking. I shared what he said with the siblings. Everyone disagreed with his approach. 😂
RIP Clem! Your shared wisdoms live on through me and many others.
62
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 17, 7:38pm
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 17, 7:38pm
I respect people who make wise investments. However this conversation got way off track because the reality is that EV (batteries) are much more costly to drive when the true costs (the many ways taxpayers and non EV owners subsidize EV through taxes, increased electric fees, etc...) are factored in. And now for some reason the conversation turned to savvy investors and their superiority.
So I respect people who make wise investments. That includes investing in eternity. Life is not a game and that is why it bothers me when people don’t tell the truth. Gasoline, and diesel are much better stores of energy for transportation than batteries. And money in the bank/real estate won’t mean a thing in eternity. Be honest, and be wealthy toward God, for what else in this life truly matters?
So I respect people who make wise investments. That includes investing in eternity. Life is not a game and that is why it bothers me when people don’t tell the truth. Gasoline, and diesel are much better stores of energy for transportation than batteries. And money in the bank/real estate won’t mean a thing in eternity. Be honest, and be wealthy toward God, for what else in this life truly matters?
63
Eman
2023 Dec 17, 9:31pm
Eman
2023 Dec 17, 9:31pm
Life is not a game. Is investment a game? Are government incentives a game? Is life a rat race? Given a choice, would everyone want to work 8-10 hours each day, or would they prefer be financially independent and spend their time however they like?
EV is a niche product. It makes sense for some and not others. Why do politicians force EV down our throat? Can we do something about it? If not, what should we do?
As I mentioned above, when comparing EV to ICE, please compare apples to apples. I’ve owned my Tesla for over 6 years. I don’t see $17.33/gallon anywhere as the author claimed. Please provide the data to back up the author’s thesis. I’d love to learn.
EV is a niche product. It makes sense for some and not others. Why do politicians force EV down our throat? Can we do something about it? If not, what should we do?
As I mentioned above, when comparing EV to ICE, please compare apples to apples. I’ve owned my Tesla for over 6 years. I don’t see $17.33/gallon anywhere as the author claimed. Please provide the data to back up the author’s thesis. I’d love to learn.
64
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2023 Dec 17, 10:22pm
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2023 Dec 17, 10:22pm
Eman says
TRUE cost. That is not the cost you pay.
As I mentioned above, when comparing EV to ICE, please compare apples to apples. I’ve owned my Tesla for over 6 years. I don’t see $17.33/gallon anywhere as the author claimed. Please provide the data to back up the author’s thesis. I’d love to learn.
TRUE cost. That is not the cost you pay.
65
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 4:16am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 4:16am
Eman says
I don't think anyone is stating EV's are a problem if you drive one. Senseless cars have been around since they were invented. Our system is what it is and I'm no socialist, but the Ferrari driver paid more in sales tax (if your state has it) and pays for premium gas that has MFT attached to it. Call the Ferrari frivolous, they at least contribute to the system in place.
Tesla owners don't. Literally not a dime. They make electric rates higher for others. When there are subsidies they're actually a drain on our current system big time. The times are changing is all I'll say. It's just my state and Wisconsin, but I know the people in charge of this. Your EV ownership cost is going to go up in a big way. As I've said enjoy it while you can. Install solar to charge it, it won't matter in the long run. Also between the car and panels you've got yourself 6 figures deep to maybe save $100/mo? Eh, not a great return on investment when I can get a slightly used car with low miles, same size as the tiny Teslas and pay maybe $150/mo in gas for $15k.
Again, they're fun to drive. You can like them. A Ferrari is fun to drive too. They're not cheaper is all some of us are saying. They're not green/clean. All the marketing you've been fed is a lie to sell them. I think some have said Tesla doesn't advertise. Bull shit. Musk is just smart about it. Goes on the largest podcaster on the planet and doesn't pay a dime for it. Musk advertises more than the big auto makers by a long shot by doing things like podcasts. He's smart, but Tesla is advertised massively because it has to be. So that's flat out wrong.
Driving a Tesla, a Ferrari, or a Prius is irrelevant. People drive whatever they like, or can afford, or fit their needs. Investment is just a vehicle to help us reach our goals. Having investments that allows us to the freedom to do whatever we want with our time is one of the ultimate goal for most people.
I don't think anyone is stating EV's are a problem if you drive one. Senseless cars have been around since they were invented. Our system is what it is and I'm no socialist, but the Ferrari driver paid more in sales tax (if your state has it) and pays for premium gas that has MFT attached to it. Call the Ferrari frivolous, they at least contribute to the system in place.
Tesla owners don't. Literally not a dime. They make electric rates higher for others. When there are subsidies they're actually a drain on our current system big time. The times are changing is all I'll say. It's just my state and Wisconsin, but I know the people in charge of this. Your EV ownership cost is going to go up in a big way. As I've said enjoy it while you can. Install solar to charge it, it won't matter in the long run. Also between the car and panels you've got yourself 6 figures deep to maybe save $100/mo? Eh, not a great return on investment when I can get a slightly used car with low miles, same size as the tiny Teslas and pay maybe $150/mo in gas for $15k.
Again, they're fun to drive. You can like them. A Ferrari is fun to drive too. They're not cheaper is all some of us are saying. They're not green/clean. All the marketing you've been fed is a lie to sell them. I think some have said Tesla doesn't advertise. Bull shit. Musk is just smart about it. Goes on the largest podcaster on the planet and doesn't pay a dime for it. Musk advertises more than the big auto makers by a long shot by doing things like podcasts. He's smart, but Tesla is advertised massively because it has to be. So that's flat out wrong.
66
Eman
2023 Dec 18, 5:41am
Eman
2023 Dec 18, 5:41am
PumpingRedheads says
What’s the true cost of supporting the Ukraine war? What’s the true cost of not building the southern border? What’s the true cost of the stolen election? What’s the true cost of inflation, or national debt for that matter? We have no control over any of that stuff? Why worry about the stuff we have no control over?
Our government will spend money however they want. We have no say in any of it. The true cost to us is what we pay.
Eman says
As I mentioned above, when comparing EV to ICE, please compare apples to apples. I’ve owned my Tesla for over 6 years. I don’t see $17.33/gallon anywhere as the author claimed. Please provide the data to back up the author’s thesis. I’d love to learn.
TRUE cost. That is not the cost you pay.
What’s the true cost of supporting the Ukraine war? What’s the true cost of not building the southern border? What’s the true cost of the stolen election? What’s the true cost of inflation, or national debt for that matter? We have no control over any of that stuff? Why worry about the stuff we have no control over?
Our government will spend money however they want. We have no say in any of it. The true cost to us is what we pay.
67
Eman
2023 Dec 18, 5:50am
Eman
2023 Dec 18, 5:50am
Wookie,
Solar is financed 100%. It will pay for itself while I don’t get raped by the annual electricity increase.
I shared on here before. My off-peak electricity rate has gone up about 120% since I bought my Tesla in 2017. I’m not going to stand around and watch for another 120% increase b/c I could do something about it. Just like real estate. It’s about control the asset and leverage with the bank’s financing.
The car is a business deduction. The car depreciates just like the MBZ E500 I used to drive, but I enjoy driving this car a lot more. I used to buy slightly used 3 year old cars too, but I’m past that stage. I don’t see myself buying a used car ever again.
Looking forward to 2025 and your prediction. PG&E sent out a newsletters stating 32% increase in electricity between now and 2026 to be expected. At least that’s one less thing I have to worry about.
Solar is financed 100%. It will pay for itself while I don’t get raped by the annual electricity increase.
I shared on here before. My off-peak electricity rate has gone up about 120% since I bought my Tesla in 2017. I’m not going to stand around and watch for another 120% increase b/c I could do something about it. Just like real estate. It’s about control the asset and leverage with the bank’s financing.
The car is a business deduction. The car depreciates just like the MBZ E500 I used to drive, but I enjoy driving this car a lot more. I used to buy slightly used 3 year old cars too, but I’m past that stage. I don’t see myself buying a used car ever again.
Looking forward to 2025 and your prediction. PG&E sent out a newsletters stating 32% increase in electricity between now and 2026 to be expected. At least that’s one less thing I have to worry about.
68
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 6:56am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 6:56am
Eman says
For now is all I'll say. We don't have to agree. Your RE advice is sound so I don't think you're a bull shitter. I just think you're wrong on EV's long term. We have more oil long term for centuries. We haven't yet full explored the minerals needed for EV's. I don't think there's enough. The only thing going is demographics and population decline at the moment to make it work... for now.
EV's simply are not the future without grid expansion. That involves nukes. That takes a decade plus. We don't have the electric capacity for much more EV's. Roads are already shit and we lose MTF money if you're not paying for gas. It's the system we have. Love or hate it. EV's are in a bad spot in my opinion and a lot of it legal and legislative. Your Tesla in the near future will cost more than gas when you factor everything in. You still pay for the solar panels regardless if they're financed. You paid for the car itself. And you still pay for electric as solar homes still mostly rely on the grid. Especially this time of year even in the sunniest of regions.
Again... 6 figures to save maybe, a big maybe $100/mo? You can toss $100k into a CD right now and make more than the gas savings. My take is I'm not throwing it on a roof or into a small car with little to no utility. Just me.
Solar is financed 100%. It will pay for itself while I don’t get raped by the annual electricity increase.
For now is all I'll say. We don't have to agree. Your RE advice is sound so I don't think you're a bull shitter. I just think you're wrong on EV's long term. We have more oil long term for centuries. We haven't yet full explored the minerals needed for EV's. I don't think there's enough. The only thing going is demographics and population decline at the moment to make it work... for now.
EV's simply are not the future without grid expansion. That involves nukes. That takes a decade plus. We don't have the electric capacity for much more EV's. Roads are already shit and we lose MTF money if you're not paying for gas. It's the system we have. Love or hate it. EV's are in a bad spot in my opinion and a lot of it legal and legislative. Your Tesla in the near future will cost more than gas when you factor everything in. You still pay for the solar panels regardless if they're financed. You paid for the car itself. And you still pay for electric as solar homes still mostly rely on the grid. Especially this time of year even in the sunniest of regions.
Again... 6 figures to save maybe, a big maybe $100/mo? You can toss $100k into a CD right now and make more than the gas savings. My take is I'm not throwing it on a roof or into a small car with little to no utility. Just me.
« First « Previous Comments 29 - 68 of 131 Next » Last » Search these comments
By Olivia Murray
In October, I wrote an essay on a “bombshell report” from a Texas think tank “which revealed that the actual cost of rechargeable cars and the E.V. industry is, in reality, much higher than they’re leading us to believe.”
The report is around 20-pages long, so I was only able to cover one of the explosive revelations—the average battery-powered car (E.V.) would cost “approximately $48,698 more to own over a 10-year period” were it not for the “staggering” handouts from the taxpayer via an extortionary and feckless government—but there were more.
Now, not only were the energy experts able to quantify the additional cost over time, but they were also able to put a dollar amount on the real cost of charging the vehicle, translated into price per gallon of gasoline. As you might guess, the price is astronomical, but that’s not the the end of it.
While EV advocates claim charging costs are equivalent to $1.21-per-gallon gasoline, the real amount is an order of magnitude more.
Including the charging equipment, subsidies from governments and utilities and other frequently excluded expenses, the true cost of charging an EV is equivalent to $17.33-per-gallon gasoline — but the EV owner pays less than 7% of that.
So if the E.V. owner pays less than 7% of that massively inflated cost to “fuel” a car, that means more than 93% of the financial burden falls on the taxpayer—as the NY Post authors also write:
This is socialism for the rich: a transfer of costs from higher net-worth individuals to middle- and lower-income taxpayers.
It’s the equivalent of levying taxes and fees on public-transportation users and those who walk or bicycle to work and using the money to reduce the price of gasoline.
At this stage, E.V.s, if forced to stand on their own, are an utter failure, and as I noted in my previous blog, bad ideas and inferior products only find security in a “free” market… rigorously controlled by big government fascists. If our market were truly free, an extremely expensive car that can spontaneously combust, only works in a limited temperature range, occasionally malfunctions and locks occupants inside before rolling backwards into bodies of water, and costs $17.33 per “gallon” to “fuel” up, would be dead on arrival—as it should be.