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True cost of charging an EV is equivalent to paying $17.33 a gallon.
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2023 Dec 15, 6:13am 7,645 views 131 comments
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113
Eman
2024 Jan 11, 4:00pm
Eman
2024 Jan 11, 4:00pm
Saw this post on X and thought of this thread. I’m not smart enough to understand the true cost of operating an EV or an ICE vehicle, and which is more subsidized, or more expensive.
https://x.com/nicklasnilsso14/status/1744615674423484786?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
https://x.com/nicklasnilsso14/status/1744615674423484786?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
114
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 11, 5:05pm
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 11, 5:05pm
WookieMan says
Exactly. Or more likely: they are going to TRY to foist that onto non-EV owning ratepayers. And in a lot of cases they are going to succeed. But there will be a limit at which point ratepayers will revolt.
We are already hitting that point with renewables.
This is what I don't think the EV people understand. I'm not paying for the grid update. I literally won't. Who are they gonna charge to update or add capacity? Not me. EV drivers.
Exactly. Or more likely: they are going to TRY to foist that onto non-EV owning ratepayers. And in a lot of cases they are going to succeed. But there will be a limit at which point ratepayers will revolt.
We are already hitting that point with renewables.
115
Eman
2024 Jan 11, 5:22pm
Eman
2024 Jan 11, 5:22pm
I don’t like to rely on others for anything so I installed solar. I designed the system with degradation and future (3rd EV usage) buffer. My solar produces more electricity than I consume. In fact, I’ll be getting a credit from PG&E. Good luck with folks who rely on PG&E for their electricity. I don’t like to screw others, but also don’t like to get screwed.
116
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 11, 5:54pm
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 11, 5:54pm
Eman says
Lot of that is bullshit. Truth is EVs are are way more energy intensive to make. That energy is fossil fuel extensive. (Same applies to polysilicon). And require more minerals than an ICE. Some quite exotic.
Worldwide nickle production alone will have to increase 20x. Copper 4x.
Not gonna happen.
The scaling up of EVs to be a significant portion of the motor vehicle fleet will be impossible to do. You can't just whip up new mines. Nor the processing capacity to do it. It is mostly done in China because they don't have any environmental enforcement and have no qualms about building new coal plants for the power.
Recycling claims are also bullshit just as they are for wind turbines and solar panels UNLESS they are manufactured differently (as in ways that increase costs 4 -6 fold). They can probably get to the lithium in the battery cells, tho.
BUT you need to mine the shit to begin with before it can be recycled. See above.
AND THAT doesn't even take into consideration what's needed to power the damn things...AT SCALE. This is what Wookie is getting into.
New battery tech that uses less/different materials? Like Sodium Ion Batts?
A strawman barfed up by people who can't argue against this. Even the Sodium Ion batteries still need those other minerals.
Graphene buckypaper supercapaciters would be a real game changer that would make a difference, sure. But that is science fiction until you see it mass manufactured. Room temp superconductors even more so.
Saw this post on X and thought of this thread. I’m not smart enough to understand the true cost of operating an EV or an ICE vehicle, and which is more subsidized, or more expensive.
https://x.com/nicklasnilsso14/status/1744615674423484786?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
Lot of that is bullshit. Truth is EVs are are way more energy intensive to make. That energy is fossil fuel extensive. (Same applies to polysilicon). And require more minerals than an ICE. Some quite exotic.
Worldwide nickle production alone will have to increase 20x. Copper 4x.
Not gonna happen.
The scaling up of EVs to be a significant portion of the motor vehicle fleet will be impossible to do. You can't just whip up new mines. Nor the processing capacity to do it. It is mostly done in China because they don't have any environmental enforcement and have no qualms about building new coal plants for the power.
Recycling claims are also bullshit just as they are for wind turbines and solar panels UNLESS they are manufactured differently (as in ways that increase costs 4 -6 fold). They can probably get to the lithium in the battery cells, tho.
BUT you need to mine the shit to begin with before it can be recycled. See above.
AND THAT doesn't even take into consideration what's needed to power the damn things...AT SCALE. This is what Wookie is getting into.
New battery tech that uses less/different materials? Like Sodium Ion Batts?
A strawman barfed up by people who can't argue against this. Even the Sodium Ion batteries still need those other minerals.
Graphene buckypaper supercapaciters would be a real game changer that would make a difference, sure. But that is science fiction until you see it mass manufactured. Room temp superconductors even more so.
117
WookieMan
2024 Jan 12, 12:08am
WookieMan
2024 Jan 12, 12:08am
UkraineIsFucked says
I generally don't get into the battery itself. It's hard to break through a cult through that avenue. If we double EV's to 6-10% of the overall market, where in the flying fuck is the electric coming from? I'm glad Eman can charge for $0 dollars. That's less than 1% of EV drivers. Where is the money coming from for solar? Where is the money coming from for power? ME. Coal.
It's literally the least efficient, most polluting means of travel. More expensive out the gate when you can save $10-30k with a hybrid, pay gas AND still come out way ahead. This is math. As I'll continue to say, enjoy Tesla, I've had fun driving them. It's not cheaper and it's not green at all.
AND THAT doesn't even take into consideration what's needed to power the damn things...AT SCALE. This is what Wookie is getting into
I generally don't get into the battery itself. It's hard to break through a cult through that avenue. If we double EV's to 6-10% of the overall market, where in the flying fuck is the electric coming from? I'm glad Eman can charge for $0 dollars. That's less than 1% of EV drivers. Where is the money coming from for solar? Where is the money coming from for power? ME. Coal.
It's literally the least efficient, most polluting means of travel. More expensive out the gate when you can save $10-30k with a hybrid, pay gas AND still come out way ahead. This is math. As I'll continue to say, enjoy Tesla, I've had fun driving them. It's not cheaper and it's not green at all.
118
SunnyvaleCA
2024 Jan 12, 1:28am
WookieMan says
Around here we have that beaten easily... hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles!
Hydrogen is stripped from natural gas (releasing loads of CO2) then compressed and cooled (takes loads of mechanical energy, so maybe 30% loss of energy). While waiting to be put into a car (the Toyota Murai, to be specific), it is constantly evaporating to keep the pressure from exploding the holding tank (maybe 5% loss per day). Once in the Murai it continues to evaporate, but is eventually run through a fuel cell to generate electricity (10% loss in that chemical -> electrical conversion) but doesn't just drive an electric motor! No! The fuel cell isn't powerful enough to run an electric motor when the vehicle is accelerating, so the fuel cell charges a LiON battery (5% loss) and then the LiON battery runs the electric motor (5% loss). The other benefit of the LiON battery is that the fuel cell process isn't reversible, so the LiON handles the regenerative braking.
If we had infinite fusion power we could use hydrogen as energy storage because we could create it from electrolysis of water. Although electrolysis is an even less efficient starting point, if you you have unlimited fusion energy, go for it! But even then, the system would be much more expensive than just synthesizing methane and re-introducing the Honda Civic GX — a viable ICE car that you filled up at home from natural gas.
[EVs are] literally the least efficient, most polluting means of travel.
Around here we have that beaten easily... hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles!
Hydrogen is stripped from natural gas (releasing loads of CO2) then compressed and cooled (takes loads of mechanical energy, so maybe 30% loss of energy). While waiting to be put into a car (the Toyota Murai, to be specific), it is constantly evaporating to keep the pressure from exploding the holding tank (maybe 5% loss per day). Once in the Murai it continues to evaporate, but is eventually run through a fuel cell to generate electricity (10% loss in that chemical -> electrical conversion) but doesn't just drive an electric motor! No! The fuel cell isn't powerful enough to run an electric motor when the vehicle is accelerating, so the fuel cell charges a LiON battery (5% loss) and then the LiON battery runs the electric motor (5% loss). The other benefit of the LiON battery is that the fuel cell process isn't reversible, so the LiON handles the regenerative braking.
If we had infinite fusion power we could use hydrogen as energy storage because we could create it from electrolysis of water. Although electrolysis is an even less efficient starting point, if you you have unlimited fusion energy, go for it! But even then, the system would be much more expensive than just synthesizing methane and re-introducing the Honda Civic GX — a viable ICE car that you filled up at home from natural gas.
119
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 12, 7:08am
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 12, 7:08am
SunnyvaleCA says
They have developed fuel cells that can strip the hydrogen from a hydrocarbon like methane. Don't think it is commercializable tho.
If we had infinite fusion power we could use hydrogen as energy storage because we could create it from electrolysis of water. Although electrolysis is an even less efficient starting point, if you you have unlimited fusion energy, go for it! But even then, the system would be much more expensive than just synthesizing methane and re-introducing the Honda Civic GX — a viable ICE car that you filled up at home from natural gas.
They have developed fuel cells that can strip the hydrogen from a hydrocarbon like methane. Don't think it is commercializable tho.
120
RWSGFY
2024 Jan 12, 8:10am
RWSGFY
2024 Jan 12, 8:10am
Jump on Google maps, search for Hydrogen fuel stations and marvel at horror stories in the reviews section.
121
SoTex
2024 Jan 12, 8:17am
SoTex
2024 Jan 12, 8:17am
SunnyvaleCA says
I've been stuck behind those (or maybe the same guy) in stop and go traffic on my daily commute in SD. It shoots what looks like a urine stream out the back of the car and when we got lucky enough to reach maybe 40mph it would bounce off of the pavement and hit my windshield. I hate getting behind those things.
Toyota Murai
I've been stuck behind those (or maybe the same guy) in stop and go traffic on my daily commute in SD. It shoots what looks like a urine stream out the back of the car and when we got lucky enough to reach maybe 40mph it would bounce off of the pavement and hit my windshield. I hate getting behind those things.
122
RWSGFY
2024 Jan 12, 8:21am
RWSGFY
2024 Jan 12, 8:21am
just_passing_through says
It's water, but it is annoying AF.
PS. They are practically giving them away now: you can buy a 2yo off-lease Mirai for $18-19K and it comes with a $15K "gas card".
SunnyvaleCA says
Toyota Murai
I've been stuck behind those (or maybe the same guy) in stop and go traffic on my daily commute in SD. It shoots what looks like a urine stream out the back of the car and when we got lucky enough to reach maybe 40mph it would bounce off of the pavement and hit my windshield. I hate getting behind those things.
It's water, but it is annoying AF.
PS. They are practically giving them away now: you can buy a 2yo off-lease Mirai for $18-19K and it comes with a $15K "gas card".
123
SunnyvaleCA
2024 Jan 12, 1:20pm
just_passing_through says
That's annoying. I've only seen steam coming out of them, but maybe I was lucky enough to have one clogging the road in front of me on a warm day.
SunnyvaleCA says
Toyota Murai
I've been stuck behind those (or maybe the same guy) in stop and go traffic on my daily commute in SD. It shoots what looks like a urine stream out the back of the car and when we got lucky enough to reach maybe 40mph it would bounce off of the pavement and hit my windshield. I hate getting behind those things.
That's annoying. I've only seen steam coming out of them, but maybe I was lucky enough to have one clogging the road in front of me on a warm day.
124
GNL
2024 Jan 12, 4:13pm
GNL
2024 Jan 12, 4:13pm
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/hertz-sell-20-000-evs-143449475.html
(Bloomberg) -- Hertz Global Holdings Inc. plans to sell a third of its US electric vehicle fleet and reinvest in gas-powered cars due to weak demand and high repair costs for its battery-powered options.
(Bloomberg) -- Hertz Global Holdings Inc. plans to sell a third of its US electric vehicle fleet and reinvest in gas-powered cars due to weak demand and high repair costs for its battery-powered options.
125
socal2
2024 Jan 12, 4:37pm
EV sales reached a record 18% of total Global Vehicle Sales in 2023. The Tesla Model Y is the best selling car IN THE ENTIRE WORLD in 2023.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/electric-vehicle-sales-by-model-2023/#:~:text=Electric%20vehicle%20(EV)%20sales%20are,increasingly%20look%20to%20electric%20options
You guys act like there is no demand for good EV's like Tesla. Most of this growth kicked in before the big government incentives took place. Face it, if you don't have to constantly tow heavy loads or drive cross country, Tesla's are superior vehicles for the majority of the population that can charge their cars at home at night.
Tesla is scaling and revolutionizing battery and manufacturing production like no other breaking all automotive records in terms of margins and production efficiency.
It will take 25 years to beef up our energy grid, power plants (hopefully new nuke plants) and additional mining/processing to meet total demand. But if we can build the Empire State Building in under 2 years 100 years ago, I am confident we can still build great things in this country if we aren't retarded.
Within 50 years we will have nearly a closed loop system where we will have enough batteries to recycle avoiding the need for new mining. It is already much easier/cheaper to process some rare earth metals out of existing batteries than mining/processing new.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/electric-vehicle-sales-by-model-2023/#:~:text=Electric%20vehicle%20(EV)%20sales%20are,increasingly%20look%20to%20electric%20options
You guys act like there is no demand for good EV's like Tesla. Most of this growth kicked in before the big government incentives took place. Face it, if you don't have to constantly tow heavy loads or drive cross country, Tesla's are superior vehicles for the majority of the population that can charge their cars at home at night.
Tesla is scaling and revolutionizing battery and manufacturing production like no other breaking all automotive records in terms of margins and production efficiency.
It will take 25 years to beef up our energy grid, power plants (hopefully new nuke plants) and additional mining/processing to meet total demand. But if we can build the Empire State Building in under 2 years 100 years ago, I am confident we can still build great things in this country if we aren't retarded.
Within 50 years we will have nearly a closed loop system where we will have enough batteries to recycle avoiding the need for new mining. It is already much easier/cheaper to process some rare earth metals out of existing batteries than mining/processing new.
126
WookieMan
2024 Jan 12, 5:26pm
WookieMan
2024 Jan 12, 5:26pm
socal2 says
We can't and won't. That has been my point. I never even mentioned sales and don't care. EV owners are going to pay for that build out and probably be dead before it becomes realistic. In the meantime you WILL be taxed extra via vehicle registration for MFT AND electric rates to build the new power plants. It's not an if conversation. It's when and I think it will be 2025.
I understand the tech. I have an electric golf cart to tool around town. I installed everything myself. I know how long it takes to charge. I have a miniature version of a Tesla. I've driven a Tesla multiple times. We're talking about costs here. They're going up. Or you can drop another $30k on a solar setup like Eman did. A Tesla is a $100k waste if you want it zero energy. That money could have been put into more productive investments that would easily cover a $10k/yr gas bill (high).
Trust me, your EV registration is probably going to go up by a factor of 5 and maybe more annually. Depending on state. My wife is a prominent national figure in road building industry. MFT is the majority of taxes used for roads and EV's aren't paying a dime. That time is coming to an end whether you like it or not. If people pay X% for MFT with gas, they're going to get it from EV drivers as well. You can't just use infrastructure for free.
The mining is wasteful for sure. We have an entire system in place for ICE vehicles. The future is hybrid. If we just double EV charging our grid is fucked. So everyone is fucked because you want an electric car?? You've gotta a pay for it and you guys will. Trust me. The day of reckoning is coming.
It will take 25 years to beef up our energy grid, power plants (hopefully new nuke plants) and additional mining/processing to meet total demand. But if we can build the Empire State Building in under 2 years 100 years ago, I am confident we can still build great things in this country if we aren't retarded.
We can't and won't. That has been my point. I never even mentioned sales and don't care. EV owners are going to pay for that build out and probably be dead before it becomes realistic. In the meantime you WILL be taxed extra via vehicle registration for MFT AND electric rates to build the new power plants. It's not an if conversation. It's when and I think it will be 2025.
I understand the tech. I have an electric golf cart to tool around town. I installed everything myself. I know how long it takes to charge. I have a miniature version of a Tesla. I've driven a Tesla multiple times. We're talking about costs here. They're going up. Or you can drop another $30k on a solar setup like Eman did. A Tesla is a $100k waste if you want it zero energy. That money could have been put into more productive investments that would easily cover a $10k/yr gas bill (high).
Trust me, your EV registration is probably going to go up by a factor of 5 and maybe more annually. Depending on state. My wife is a prominent national figure in road building industry. MFT is the majority of taxes used for roads and EV's aren't paying a dime. That time is coming to an end whether you like it or not. If people pay X% for MFT with gas, they're going to get it from EV drivers as well. You can't just use infrastructure for free.
The mining is wasteful for sure. We have an entire system in place for ICE vehicles. The future is hybrid. If we just double EV charging our grid is fucked. So everyone is fucked because you want an electric car?? You've gotta a pay for it and you guys will. Trust me. The day of reckoning is coming.
127
socal2
2024 Jan 12, 6:35pm
WookieMan says
We can reuse what we mine over and over again, as opposed to burning oil once.
We have an entire electric grid already in place for EV's. Same shit we have been using over 100 years. Just plug it in at your home like you do your phone. Tesla is already beefing up electric grids all over the world deploying their major Mega storage battery packs. More work to be done for sure as more EV's come on line.
Hybrids have tremendous complexity, costs and more to go wrong having ICE engines, electric motors, batteries and transmissions just to get an extra 50-100 miles of range. Hybrids are tremendously lame.
WookieMan says
I can afford a luxury sedan. It is not really a cost issue for me, even though I have been making out like a bandit economically for the last half decade driving my Bolt and Model Y.
So even if it costs more (it doesn't right now) I would be willing to pay the premium to enjoy superior driving experience, fun and practicality of a Tesla over anything else.
Seriously, if someone offered me a Plaid Model X or S or Cybertruck over a Bugatti or Lamborghini - I am taking the Tesla every time.
The mining is wasteful for sure. We have an entire system in place for ICE vehicles. The future is hybrid.
We can reuse what we mine over and over again, as opposed to burning oil once.
We have an entire electric grid already in place for EV's. Same shit we have been using over 100 years. Just plug it in at your home like you do your phone. Tesla is already beefing up electric grids all over the world deploying their major Mega storage battery packs. More work to be done for sure as more EV's come on line.
Hybrids have tremendous complexity, costs and more to go wrong having ICE engines, electric motors, batteries and transmissions just to get an extra 50-100 miles of range. Hybrids are tremendously lame.
WookieMan says
We're talking about costs here. They're going up.
I can afford a luxury sedan. It is not really a cost issue for me, even though I have been making out like a bandit economically for the last half decade driving my Bolt and Model Y.
So even if it costs more (it doesn't right now) I would be willing to pay the premium to enjoy superior driving experience, fun and practicality of a Tesla over anything else.
Seriously, if someone offered me a Plaid Model X or S or Cybertruck over a Bugatti or Lamborghini - I am taking the Tesla every time.
128
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 14, 8:08am
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 14, 8:08am
socal2 says
Not going to happen.
.socal2 says
Didn't require new mines, rare earths nor a rebuilt grid.
How do you function in life?
It will take 25 years to beef up our energy grid, power plants (hopefully new nuke plants) and additional mining/processing to meet total demand
Not going to happen.
.socal2 says
But if we can build the Empire State Building in under 2 years 100 years ago
Didn't require new mines, rare earths nor a rebuilt grid.
How do you function in life?
129
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 14, 8:10am
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 14, 8:10am
socal2 says
Jesus Christ! You have to mine first virgin materials before you recycle. And the recycling claim is bullshit anyway because of the way they construct EVs.
We can reuse what we mine over and over again, as opposed to burning oil once.
Jesus Christ! You have to mine first virgin materials before you recycle. And the recycling claim is bullshit anyway because of the way they construct EVs.
130
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 14, 8:11am
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 14, 8:11am
socal2 says
Again, what bullshit world do you live in?
We have an entire electric grid in place for powering everything else BUT EVs.
We have an entire electric grid already in place for EV's.
Again, what bullshit world do you live in?
We have an entire electric grid in place for powering everything else BUT EVs.
131
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 14, 8:12am
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 14, 8:12am
socal2 says
EV battery stacks have over 2000 components in them.
Hybrids have tremendous complexity, costs and more to go wrong having ICE engines, electric motors, batteries and transmissions just to get an extra 50-100 miles of range. Hybrids are tremendously lame.
EV battery stacks have over 2000 components in them.
« First « Previous Comments 113 - 131 of 131 Search these comments
By Olivia Murray
In October, I wrote an essay on a “bombshell report” from a Texas think tank “which revealed that the actual cost of rechargeable cars and the E.V. industry is, in reality, much higher than they’re leading us to believe.”
The report is around 20-pages long, so I was only able to cover one of the explosive revelations—the average battery-powered car (E.V.) would cost “approximately $48,698 more to own over a 10-year period” were it not for the “staggering” handouts from the taxpayer via an extortionary and feckless government—but there were more.
Now, not only were the energy experts able to quantify the additional cost over time, but they were also able to put a dollar amount on the real cost of charging the vehicle, translated into price per gallon of gasoline. As you might guess, the price is astronomical, but that’s not the the end of it.
While EV advocates claim charging costs are equivalent to $1.21-per-gallon gasoline, the real amount is an order of magnitude more.
Including the charging equipment, subsidies from governments and utilities and other frequently excluded expenses, the true cost of charging an EV is equivalent to $17.33-per-gallon gasoline — but the EV owner pays less than 7% of that.
So if the E.V. owner pays less than 7% of that massively inflated cost to “fuel” a car, that means more than 93% of the financial burden falls on the taxpayer—as the NY Post authors also write:
This is socialism for the rich: a transfer of costs from higher net-worth individuals to middle- and lower-income taxpayers.
It’s the equivalent of levying taxes and fees on public-transportation users and those who walk or bicycle to work and using the money to reduce the price of gasoline.
At this stage, E.V.s, if forced to stand on their own, are an utter failure, and as I noted in my previous blog, bad ideas and inferior products only find security in a “free” market… rigorously controlled by big government fascists. If our market were truly free, an extremely expensive car that can spontaneously combust, only works in a limited temperature range, occasionally malfunctions and locks occupants inside before rolling backwards into bodies of water, and costs $17.33 per “gallon” to “fuel” up, would be dead on arrival—as it should be.