patrick.net

Some things I picked up over 13 years of Catholic School:

The concept of resurrection was seized upon by the Hellenistic culture within the Roman Empire. IIRC, the Greeks associated the god Apollo with resurrection. When Paul set out to proselytize the Greeks, they found it easy to syncretize (look this word up) Jesus' death and resurrection with similar scripture concerning Apollo.

It is likely that had Paul not sought to convert Hellenistic citizens of the Empire to Christianity, the early religion might have died, for those of Greek culture were the most enthusiastic followers. Just look at all the Epistles that Paul wrote to Greek cities in Greece and Asia Minor.

unfortunately most forgot that the message is more important than the messenger. Jesus preached the golden rule - do unto others as you want done to you. Love others as yourself. Now most worship the messenger.
I did not know about the resurrection of Apollo - and you are probably right - and may be we should talk about Paulism instead of Christianity ! If it had not been for Paul, we might not even know about Jesus at all. What would the words of some Jewish fishermen have counted if not the Romanized Paul had put himself on the stage. I think there is a book from Nietzsche about this.

First, Jesus didn't save the entire world. His death and payment for sin is only efficacious to those that believe and follow him.
Patrick says

Did he need to get credit for it to work? Doesn't needing credit contradict the selflessness of being crucified? A truly selfless act would not need recognition at all.

The Scriptures declare that Jesus, as God, pre-existed his advent in which he lowered himself in order to take on human flesh, which he did. (By the way, Mary is not the "mother" of God, she is the Mother of Christ's humanity. Being that God never had a time when he didn't exist, he wasn't 'born' in the real sense of the word). Being that he is God, and has always been God, he is in need of nothing. He doesn't 'need' praise, glory, or recognition for anything that he has ever done in the past or will do in the future. As God, he existed throughout all of eternity. He never had a beginning and never will have an end and did perfectly fine without creating the universe or the earth, which in relationship to eternity, is a short little brief blip on the radar screen of eternity.

Also, as God, he is completely sovereign, and mankind is his creation. He does whatever he wants and when he wants. No one has any authority to tell him what to do.

Personally, there are mysteries that I do not know the answer to. But that doesn't prevent me from believing in 'the way, the truth and the life.'

I apologize for the rambling answer ... feel free to ask more.

RayAmerica says

His death and payment for sin is only efficacious to those that believe and follow him.

But this then leaves good people who happen never to have heard of Jesus in a difficult spot though no fault of their own.

Patrick says

But this then leaves good people who happen never to have heard of Jesus in a difficult spot though no fault of their own.

With knowledge comes responsibility. The Bible refers to God's creation that declares his glory, and existence, so that there are none without an excuse:
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" - Romans 1:20

As far as those that have never heard of Christ, they 'know him' through his creation. The Scriptures declare: "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
- Colossians 1:16,17

Having said that, each individual is going to give an account on judgment day. How exactly those individuals that have not specifically 'heard of Jesus' is going to be up to God to judge on an individual basis.

One thing to keep in mind; according to the Scriptures, mankind was judged in the Garden when the when Adam, who was created without sin, purposely broke his covenant with God and sinned. As a result, we all inherited Adam's sin nature, and were judged in him. The fact that God shows mercy on any of us is a sovereign act on his part because we are all born guilty. There are people who will no doubt argue that the account of Original Sin is fiction and that it never happened. Such people are faced with a dilemma. They must choose to believe their OWN account and by doing so, declare that God's account is a lie, or, they must acknowledge that God's account is true and by doing so, acknowledge their need for Christ as Savior.

RayAmerica says

With knowledge comes responsibility. The Bible refers to God's creation that declares his glory, and existence, so that there are none without an excuse:
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" - Romans 1:20

Here, make a little effort and imagine this is Scientology and not Christianity.

They want you to spread, their cult. You have these obscene megachurches, totally obscene, and the Vatican is the same way. It's just about controlling people and controlling wealth.

Wouldn't one have to adopt a particular view about who and what Jesus actually was as a historical figure? Teleology seems to trump identifiable facts and timelines.

A figure spun from the telepathic blended desires of a populace is probably beyond issues of taking credit. It's the populace that demands the acknowledgement.

Christ's true body of believers is a universal church (catholic with a small 'c') that is spiritual in nature. Understandably, people get what they view to be 'Christianity' with what you refer to as the "totally obscene," which are physical manifestations of the creation of a man, and, as a consequence, show the fruits that are produced by men that use 'religion' as means towards financial gain, praise and recognition, and power over the souls of their flock.

Ceffer says

Wouldn't one have to adopt a particular view about who and what Jesus actually was as a historical figure? Teleology seems to trump identifiable facts and timelines.

How's this for a novel idea? Why not just take the Scriptures view on who and what Jesus is?

Any time a Christian proselytizer is trying to rope me in, I just quote Matthew 18:19-20:

Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.

it was needed to prove that god conquers death. it is as ultimate sacrifice that showed that god loved us so much and that the only way to salvation is through christ alone, no amount of pegan sacrifices will do that jews had in old testament. book of corinthians is where church gets reprimanded for forgetting exactly that.

the sacrifice was selfless for it was for us, not for him.

Patrick says

RayAmerica says

His death and payment for sin is only efficacious to those that believe and follow him.

But this then leaves good people who happen never to have heard of Jesus in a difficult spot though no fault of their own.

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."

https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

But this then contradicts the idea that all salvation is through belief in Jesus.

richwicks says

They want you to spread, their cult. You have these obscene megachurches, totally obscene, and the Vatican is the same way. It's just about controlling people and controlling wealth.

There definitely are people who use religion as a way of controlling people and making money, but there are also a lot of people who sincerely believe, even within, say, the Catholic Church hierarchy.

Sensitive topic. I don't buy a damn thing besides they're trying to extort money from you and fuck your kids. Someone prove otherwise? Prove afterlife? Show me the bible isn't a fictional book? I'm an ass an will own that, but seriously SHOW me.

Patrick says

But this then contradicts the idea that all salvation is through belief in Jesus.

And don't you see that as self serving for the religion?

Jack Chick is famous for making a bunch of religious comic books. The lesson in each comic is that no matter what a piece of shit evil fuck a person is, if they believe in Jesus, they go to heaven, and no matter what a nice good moral person another is, if they don't believe in Jesus, they go to Hell.

It's an inversion of morality. If religion doesn't practice or promote morality, it's evil.

The demand is just belief, nothing else. If God is really like that, what an asshole. It would be my moral duty to be a satanist in that case, of course I'd oppose it, it's evil. And I'll go a little further, what evil things has Satan done in the Bible? Well, god arranged to have his son brutally murdered, he drowning the world - every man woman, child, puppy, kitten, you name it except 2 or 7 of each kind, it's done a lot of what I would consider evil. What did Satan do? Tempt Jesus Christ? Get man and woman to eat from the Tree of KNOWLEDGE?

To this day, I'm not certain Jack Chick wasn't a very cynical atheist pointing out the absurdity of the religion.

Patrick says

There definitely are people who use religion as a way of controlling people and making money, but there are also a lot of people who sincerely believe, even within, say, the Catholic Church hierarchy.

I know this. I oppose one and support the other. I used to oppose both.

WookieMan says

Prove afterlife?

Here's a question - do you want to exist for ETERNITY?

Final rest does have its appeal. I very much wouldn't want to be tortured with existence forever, that really would be hell. I have no fear of oblivion, but fear of permanent consciousness - I have that.

rickwicks

Christ said that "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." - Luke 13:3

Paul wrote: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such WERE some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." - I Corinthians 6: 9-11

A believer in Christ means that you will follow his commandments, out of faith. Proclaiming belief in him, while living in rebellion against the Scripture's teachings is a denial of Christ. How can one believe in him and yet deny what he and the Scriptures declare?

GreaterNYCDude says

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."

This is clearly not taught in the Scriptures. The only sure way that the Bible declares is through Jesus Christ. Having said that, God becomes the final judge as to the destiny of each individual that is outside of Christ.

John 14:5,6 "Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

RayAmerica says

Christ said that "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." - Luke 13:3

A man said that Christ said this, which a man said was the son of god.

I have trust issues with men, especially men of power, especially men of power in history.

You don't. I cannot jump that gulf. I just can't. Galileo was put under house arrest until his death because he "crazily" thought that world revolved around the sun. Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake because he thought that stars were suns like our own. He also thought worlds like ours revolved around it and were populated by people like us, I think he was wrong about the second part.

These assholes stand in the way of knowledge, and I guess, the serpent got Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge.

Here's my hypothesis - the people who created the Christian religion want to keep people obedient, fearful, and without knowledge, but they want to be free, fearless, and filled with knowledge.

I'm still at the center. Should I just be fearless and fuck you all, and treat you like things? I'm not evil, I'm not sadistic at all (thank god I'm not!), but if I can't pull you up, what can I do? If you can't see the evil in front of your face, I either stagnate, die, or ascend. I'd rather pull you up with me. We can make a better world, but not when you keep being a slave to a bunch of dead sociopaths (and current ones) and that's who created your religion.

Consider, they did the Children's Crusade. CHILDREN'S Crusade. How fucking messed up is that? They believe their own propaganda, OR, they just don't give a shit. It's a combination of both. I think there are leaders of the religion who are honestly religious, but I guarantee there are plenty in there that are nothing more than sociopaths.

I don't want to make you question your faith. Doing so doesn't help me, or this society, and it certainly doesn't help you. I thought it would help society at one point, but that was 20 years ago. Most people are aimless without their childhood programming. Better you believe in a false religion than to become an aimless sociopath since so many people believe religion == morality. It's not a perfect morality, but it's better than none. I really do envy you, I can't ever have faith again, at least not Christian faith. In Dharmic religions there's the concept of Kharma, and one of those concepts is we are all one, we all live every life of everything and collectively we are God. You'll be doomed to live my life, and me yours, and the steak you had, the grass you cut, and the bacteria you exterminated with that washing liquid - that we are an entire collective. In this concept the good way of looking at it is be kind, because you're just hurting yourself, the bad way of looking at it is if that woman raped and tortured and killed, well she deserved it - her perpetrator was herself in another form. That we all experience everything, every possible thing.

And that is why Nirvana is non existence, it's returning to god, not doomed to reincarnate again, and again, and again.

1) It was the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

2) The devil or Satan shows up plenty in the old testament in the form of people worshiping idols and false gods. Who do you think Molech, Ashtoreth, Baal, Bel, Dagon, etc....
were representing? Who inspired people to worship them? Many of these so called gods/religions required child sacrifices. By the way, this still happens today, we've just changed the names, Epstein island, abortion, etc.

3) A great definition of religion is: Mans attempt to please and appease god. Who that god is can vary greatly. The environment, (global warming), mankind, (humanism), every number of false gods, even the real God. Every religion has its instructions on how to do this. We are religious by nature.

4) Jesus Christ did not come to earth to start a new religion called Christianity. He came so that we could have a relationship with Him. This relationship is not based on being good enough to please him, we can't earn it. It is solely based on what He did for us.

5) The only things we can do are believe, John 3:16, 5:24; repent, Acts 2:38, Mark 1:15; and receive, Revelation 3:20. That is the bare bones of the gospel.

If you're real with God and ask Jesus to come into your life, He will. Your life will change, somethings quickly, some over time. It doesn't mean you're on easy street, cause now you have made yourself a bigger target for the devil's attacks. He wants you to fall away, or even become merely religious. The devil is the author of religion, not God. But, we have victory in Jesus who defeated the devil. That doesn't mean we always walk in that victory, but we can learn to more and more.

God offers a relationship with Himself through His Son, Jesus Christ. Rejecting that relationship is the only thing that will keep you from going to heaven.

6) Some might want to argue about the validity of the Bible and of Jesus. I ask you to read, "Evidence that Demands a Verdict", by Josh McDowell. And to read the Bible for yourself, asking God to give you understanding. The gospel of John is a great place to start.

Thank you and God bless you!

Ingrid says

unfortunately most forgot that the message is more important than the messenger. Jesus preached the golden rule - do unto others as you want done to you. Love others as yourself. Now most worship the messenger.

Disagree with the last point. Many want to be vaguely nice according to the nice standards of the nice time so everybody knows they're nice people that it would be nice to know and agree with.

Some are really just about advertising member's attempts at moral supremacy and virtue signalling. Others are simply ethnic tradition

Even Paul had to deal with a buncha stuff.

This goes for other religions as well. Some temples are obsessed with Tikkun Olam Socialism, others with whether using an elevator on the Sabbath is a violation (legalism).

All you need is faith as large as a mustard seed.

RayAmerica says

Christ's true body of believers is a universal church (catholic with a small 'c') that is spiritual in nature. Understandably, people get what they view to be 'Christianity' with what you refer to as the "totally obscene," which are physical manifestations of the creation of a man, and, as a consequence, show the fruits that are produced by men that use 'religion' as means towards financial gain, praise and recognition, and power over the souls of their flock.

Yep, even in the early days Paul had to rebuke and educate Churches and their members.

Patrick says

But this then contradicts the idea that all salvation is through belief in Jesus.

Not necessarily. God is infinite. Far be the it from me to presuppose how salvation is achieved.

Jesus said that "No one comes to the father but through me." (Jn 14:6).

So perhaps even if you don't hear of Jesus in life, you meet him in the here after. You sit and review your life (why not, you have all of eternity) the decisions you made and their impact, good bad or indifferent. Our charity extends far beyond what we realize in the moment. In hindsight you can see your legacy, the impact you made on those you interacted with.

Heck, you may even get to learn how your life could have turned out had you made different life decisions.

Then you are judged by your merits.

For me, salvation is assured through Jesus Paschal mystery, irrespective of my awareness or ignorance thereof.

Patrick says

What if no one past 100 AD had ever heard of Jesus? Would his dying on the cross still have saved the world?

Did he need to get credit for it to work? Doesn't needing credit contradict the selflessness of being crucified? A truly selfless act would not need recognition at all.

Serious question.

“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: ‘I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.’ Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength” (1 Corinthians 1:18–25).

If you approach the Gospel with preconceived notions, it will be a barrier to understanding.

Perhaps that is why Jesus said this: “ And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.”

The wise person asks God “why did you Create me?”

For it is foolish to ignore why God created you while simultaneously arguing that God is unjust. If you don’t know why He created you, it is impossible to comprehend true justice.

Another way to put it is this. Is it possible that the Creator has a plan and an understanding of justice that is higher than human reasoning? Humans in all their wisdom have proven ill equipped to understand even basic things, as evidenced by the many errors and bad decisions we make. But God never makes mistakes. If something seems unjust, and if it was God’s doing (many if not most seeming injustices are actually the result of humans making bad choices) then perhaps the viewer does not understand God’s perspective. From Gods perspective we all have earned punishment. For the wages of sin is death.

But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. Those in heaven who died before Jesus looked to the promise of His act of sacrifice on the cross. Those in heaven who died after the resurrection simply believe Jesus fulfilled the promises made by God in Genesis that He would redeem believers. Nothing changed regarding this promise from Adam through today.

Patrick says

What if no one past 100 AD had ever heard of Jesus? Would his dying on the cross still have saved the world?

For a theological question, it's firmly grounded in the physical world. Outside of the Jews and some Romans, most people had never heard of Jesus. He lived in a small town and traveled in a very, very small area. His ministry didn't start until the last two years of His life. The previous 30 are almost completely unrecorded. If not for the early church, Paul, and the original disciples, Jesus likely would have been forgotten by 100AD.

RayAmerica says

This is clearly not taught in the Scriptures

These aren't my words. They are direct from the Chatechsim of the Roman Catholic Church.

Catholics also believe in transubstantiation, that they are literally eating Christ's body and drinking his blood every week. They also want you to confess to a priest rather than God(making another human a barrier to your personal relationship with God). And in this case they very directly contradict themselves. Catholics are required, like Muslims, to perform a set of rituals to get into heaven. Either these sacraments(rituals) are required, or they aren't.

What you quoted is the equivalent of our government's current policy towards illegals in this country. In this analogy church attending Catholics are US citizens, non-church attending are illegals.

NuttBoxer,

Just a couple of comments regarding your above post.

According to Catholic teachings, in order to remain in a State of Grace (SoG), a Catholic is required to periodically make Auricular Confession to a Priest, whereby, the RCC claims that he has the 'authority' (because he is a 'little Christ') to forgive sin (Scriptures clearly teach that only God has that authority). Upon hearing confession, the Priest then prescribes various acts of Penance, such as saying 25 Hail Marys and 25 Our Fathers, etc. along with the instructions to attend Mass (Sacrifice of the Mass is the re-sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ for sin). All three of these are required in order to obtain a SoG. From there, they are required to attend WEEKLY Mass, while making periodical confession, whereby if they don't, they fall from the SoG, because missing Mass for frivolous reasons is a Grave or Mortal Sin. If such a Catholic should die in Mortal Sin, they will spend all of their eternity in Hell. Purgatory (which denies the all sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross) exists in order to torment the Catholic for an unspecified amount of time in order to pay for unconfessed Venial Sins, whereas Mortal Sins cannot be forgiven via the fires of Purgatory. Masses for the Dead are paid for and said by Priests as a means to lessen the time that their loved ones spend in Purgatory.

There is much, much more to this say about this 'religious' system, but I'll stop here.

Here's a theological question:

Was Peter actually 'Catholic?'

(Hint: the answer is found in the only writings of Peter, his two epistles 1 Peter & 2 Peter)