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Retirement - How much does one need - Truth and Lies


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2024 Jun 7, 1:35pm   4,095 views  99 comments

by gabbar   ➕follow (1)   💰tip   ignore  

If you want to retire in comfort, investment firms and news headlines tell us, you may need
$1 million in the bank.
Or maybe not. One prominent economist says you can retire for a lot less: $50,000 to
$100,000 in total savings. He points to the experiences of actual retirees as evidence.
“You Don’t Need to Be a Millionaire to Retire,” says the headline of a column penned by
Andrew Biggs, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute think tank, and published
in April in The Wall Street Journal.
Most Americans retire with nowhere near $1 million in savings. The notion that we need that
much money to fund a secure retirement arises from opinion polls, personal finance columns
and two or three rules of thumb that suffuse the financial planning business.
Financial advisers tell you to save 10 times your annual salary for retirement, enough cash
that you can live on 4% of the balance for a year. In one widely reported survey, Americans
said they would need $1.46 million in the bank to retire comfortably.
Biggs disagrees. To prove his point, the economist looked at responses to the federal Survey
of Household Economics and Decisionmaking between 2019 and 2022.
The survey asked retirement-age Americans, 65 to 74, how well they were managing
financially.
A majority, roughly 85%, said they were just fine: They were living comfortably, or at least
“doing OK.”
Only 15% said they were struggling.
The finding matters, Biggs says, because most retirees have much less than $1 million in the
bank. In the federal survey, the typical senior who reported a satisfactory retirement had
$50,000 to $100,000 in savings.
“It’s impossible to find any evidence that seniors need even a fraction of $1.46 million in
savings to be financially secure,” Biggs wrote.
2/4
By his argument, retirees don’t need nearly so much savings as financial planners say they
do.
The average couple that retired in 2022 reaped nearly $46,000 in annual Social Security
benefits, by Biggs’s calculations. While that sum is “hardly extravagant,” he wrote, “a typical
couple can expect an income more than twice the elderly poverty threshold before they touch
a penny of their own savings.”
Biggs says retirement planners overstate how much income retirees actually need, and how
much they will spend, essentially as a way to drum up business.
Reactions to Biggs’s column ranged from admiration to outrage. Some readers reposted the
piece on X with praise. One critic quipped, “You don’t need to be a millionaire to retire and do
NOTHING!!!”
Biggs is a noted conservative economist and something of a contrarian. Earlier this year, he
and a colleague sparked outrage with a paper that argued for eliminating the 401(k) plan.
His new assertion, that people don’t need a million dollars to retire in comfort, flies in the face
of common wisdom in the retirement planning industry.
“What about rising health care costs?” said Lili Vasileff, a certified financial planner in
Greenwich, Connecticut. “What about more older adult children living for free with older
parents? What about divorces in later life that halve all assets on the cusp of retirement?”
Perhaps the most provocative claim in Biggs’s analysis is that only a few retirees face
financial challenges.
Alicia Munnell, director of the Center for Retirement Research at Boston College (and a past
collaborator with Biggs), estimates that at least two-fifths of retirees are struggling financially.
In the 2022 edition of the federal Survey of Consumer Finances, when seniors were asked
how they would handle a financial emergency, only 58% said they could rely on savings. To
Munnell, that figure reflects the depth of financial insecurity among retirees.
Why, then, did only 15% of seniors in the other federal survey, cited by Biggs, say they were
struggling?
Munnell thinks many retirees are reluctant to discuss their financial problems in surveys.
“When people are asked about their well-being, I think there’s a certain pride,” she said. “You
don’t want to say, ‘I really screwed up.’”
Though Munnell disagrees with Biggs on the financial well-being of American retirees, she
applauds his stance that you don’t need a million dollars to retire.
3/4
“I don’t think it helps to hold out unrealistic savings goals and to exaggerate how much
money people need to fund a comfortable retirement,” she said.
The million-dollar retirement is a frustrating quest, Munnell said, because most of us do not
retire as millionaires.
The typical senior with a retirement account has about $200,000 saved, according to data for
households in the 65-74 age range from the 2022 Survey of Consumer Finances.
But only about half of those households report having retirement accounts at all.
On this point, Biggs and his colleagues disagree. He contends that many seniors have other
kinds of savings, not to mention pensions. Munnell believes that Biggs is overconfident in the
security of American retirees.
“I don’t know people, really, who have retirement savings who don’t have a retirement
account,” she said.
Retirement experts often say people will need about 80% of their preretirement income to
fund their retirement years.
Social Security covers only about half of that, according to the Social Security Administration.
And so, for a comfortable retirement, we are urged to save.
One rule dictates that we should try to save 10 times our annual salary to supplement our
Social Security income. For a typical American household, that comes to nearly $750,000, or
10 times the median household income of $74,580.
And then there is the 4% rule: Plan to withdraw 4% of your retirement savings to cover your
annual living expenses, adjusting the figure for inflation each year.
Some experts say 4% is too low; others contend it’s too high. Either way, the message is
clear: If you are going to live on a single-digit percentage of your retirement savings, you will
need a lot of it.
Biggs believes those rules exist largely so that investment houses can sell investment
products, and so personal-finance websites can attract pageviews.
He points to the 80% rule: Not many retirees, he reasons, will ever spend that much of their
working income in retirement.
“For a long time, 70% was the recommended mean for middle-income retirees,” he said in an
email to USA TODAY, “and it’s crept up without (to my mind) particularly strong evidence.”
4/4
The 4% rule is a little harder to critique, he said, “but one thing we now know is that retirees
reduce their spending pretty significantly as they age.” Older retirees travel less, eat less and
spend less on children, Biggs said. Medical costs rise, but insurance covers most of them.
Retirement experts say the guidelines are meant as aspirational goals for working people to
plan their retirement.
“Those rules of thumb are helpful for folks in their early career, their mid-career,” said
Douglas Ornstein, a director with TIAA Wealth Management, part of the financial services
nonprofit. “By the time you’re five years out from retirement, those rules are probably not so
helpful anymore.”
No two retirements are alike, financial advisers say. Some retirees are still making mortgage
payments or supporting grandchildren. Others have neither dependents nor debt.
“If you’re living in Manhattan, yeah, you probably need a million dollars, if not more,” said
Christopher Lyman, a certified financial planner in Newtown, Pennsylvania. “If you’re living
out near Lancaster, Pennsylvania, with the Amish, there’s not a lot going on down there. If
you’ve got $50,000, you’re probably OK.”

Source: https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/really-1m-retirement-savings-not-091427748.html

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39   clambo   2024 Jun 13, 6:40am  

I'm replying to things here and there above.
To clarify; if you retire before 65 (Medicare), you are retiring a bit early, but it's still a good thing to do if possible.
From age 60 to 65, you can expect to be buying Obamacare insurance, which is either cheap or expensive depending on your income.
Maybe you can refrain from spending retirement accounts to keep your income down a little.
If you are healthy, you can still expect to have some procedures, herewith some of them:
Colonoscopy, cataract surgery (LENSAR is state of the art), Mohs surgery for skin cancer, and later arthritis (50% probability).
You might dodge the bullet for arthritis.
My experience was after 65 most medical things out of pocket were inexpensive; by contrast I've spent more on dental work even with Delta Dental insurance.
An odd experience for me has been the doubling of my net worth since I started Medicare; now my only concern is my health.
40   B.A.C.A.H.   2024 Jun 13, 7:39am  

zzyzzx says

almost nobody here has a defined benefit pension plan

What is a "defined benefit plan"?
41   B.A.C.A.H.   2024 Jun 13, 7:56am  

EBGuy says

How much in BONDZ make for a modest retirement, BACAH?

I don't know. Long before I retired (just quit working after getting laid off) I had a cynical view of bonds because of the fed forcing the rates down by "buying" them.

After then-candidate Trump said in 2016 his remedy for the National Debt was haircuts, I didn't want to touch those. The cat is now out of the bag, a US President suggested default as a remedy. Before he did that, such a suggestion would have been like a character in Harry Potter saying "Voldemort".

You can shoot holes in my reasoning all you want, I don't care, - but I reckon we might have some headway of a couple of years to see a treasury default coming. Therefore bills and notes maturing in 24 months or less I think are OK for the time being. That's just for two years' living expense cash with no state income tax. Besides, a haircut on 24 months' of spending money is not a disaster.

Based on what happened in some countries following the 2008 financial crisis, I think small depositors will be made whole on insured bank deposits, even if there's a treasury "haircut": the treasury will borrow more, before-during-after a haircut (default) to cover the FDIC for small depositors. Because the powers that be will view the alternative (pitchforks) to be worse. It's a political calculation. Maybe you all think I dunno WTF about any of this. Whatever. Yes, yes, I know: hyperinflation etc., so "made whole" payments' purchase power will be reduced a lot.

So to answer your question: for non-equities bond allocation: zero. FDIC covered deposits, short term treasuries OK.

A bond is a "promise" to pay. I don't trust government nor corporations to keep their promises.
42   HeadSet   2024 Jun 13, 12:09pm  

B.A.C.A.H. says

What is a "defined benefit plan"?

This is where one gets a defined benefit at retirement, regardless of market or contributions.

For example:

A "defined contribution" plan is where one contributes a set amount, say 10% of pay, into a fund that one can withdraw from at retirement. When one exhausts the accumulated funds/stocks, the payments stop.

A "defined benefit" plan is where one gets a set amount of money every month indexed for inflation, typically after serving 20 years or so. Usually without vesting or contributions. Military retirement is one example, as are many California municipal pensions. Payments stop only upon death, although some can be inherited by a spouse or child.
43   stfu   2024 Jun 13, 2:48pm  

clambo says

cataract surgery (LENSAR is state of the art)


Ahh, you fell for the sales pitch. I can't argue that the tech works (as do the LenSX (Alcon) and the Optimedica (J&J) Femtosecond lasers) but I always questioned the ROI of electing to get the laser assisted capsulotomy. It definitely makes a bad surgeon appear competent, but it will actually slow down a good surgeon and unless your surgery is botched it won't make much difference in visual acuity when all is said and done. Last I knew medicare wouldn't cover it. Again, not saying it isn't worth it - the tech definitely works.

Now, if price wasn't an issue I would of course elect to use the laser assist but if cost were an issue I would spend my money on the IOL - which has a much greater impact on your outcome. Again, I don't believe the premium IOL's are covered by medicare. Last I knew it was like a $2,000 per eye upcharge for the premium multi-focal/ mixed astig IOL's.

I'm not just talking shit - I spent the last part of my career working on two of those platforms and on the predecessor that they all came from - the Intralase model 1, 2, and iFS. The intralase was just a flap cutter for lasik but it's the foundation of the cataract lasers. The Engineers at intralase went on to work on these other platforms after intralase was bought (I think by Advanced Medical Optics which then sold to Abbott which then sold to J&J). Hell, there was even a lawsuit against the LenSx because it's software was so close to the intralase. I worked on both and I can tell you it was 'more than close' - down to the same user password combos for devs and techs.

Sorry to derail the thread but there's so very little in this world that I know shit about so I had to chime in to thump my own chest.

To keep in the spirit of the topic, I'm a GenXr and I have two 'defined benefit' pensions. They are not COLA'd and they are tiny but I imagine they will still be enough to pay for my internet until the day I die. There are still companies that offer a pension in the private sector but they are exceedingly rare. Nearly all of my friends who are 10 or more years older than me have a pension with somebody. None of my friends under 50 in the private sector have one.
44   stereotomy   2024 Jun 13, 6:35pm  

clambo says


I've spent more on dental work even with Delta Dental insurance.

I've been using Livionex (now LivFresh) for about 10 years, ever since I heard about it from a founder of the company on iTulip. It's fantastic - my gums are all 1-2 pocket, no plaque. My kid has braces and uses it - it completely inhibits bacterial biofilms, so the teeth and gums are clean. I wish I had this when I had braces back in the day.

If you've got gum/gengivitis problems, I'd recommend this 100%.
45   FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden   2024 Jun 13, 7:21pm  

zzyzzx says

casandra says


Didn't anyone mention here having good traditional retirement plans or is that assumed in all the calculations being written here. And don't say they no longer exist. That may be true for the nowadays, but how many millennials and Gen x & z ers are on this board.


I would assume that almost nobody here has a defined benefit pension plan. Gen X here, no defined benefit pension.


i do, but it’s less than SS once it kicks in. i’m still working.
46   B.A.C.A.H.   2024 Jun 14, 9:50am  

HeadSet says

B.A.C.A.H. says

What is a "defined benefit plan"?

This is where one gets a defined benefit at retirement, regardless of market or contributions.

For example:


Thank you.

My question was meant to be sarcastic.
47   zzyzzx   2024 Jun 14, 10:29am  

stereotomy says

LivFresh


$70 toothpaste?
48   zzyzzx   2024 Jun 14, 10:30am  

stfu says

Last I knew medicare wouldn't cover it


Which is why everyplace that does cataract surgery only offers the laser version.
49   zzyzzx   2024 Jun 14, 10:34am  

stfu says


Now, if price wasn't an issue I would of course elect to use the laser assist but if cost were an issue I would spend my money on the IOL - which has a much greater impact on your outcome. Again, I don't believe the premium IOL's are covered by medicare. Last I knew it was like a $2,000 per eye upcharge for the premium multi-focal/ mixed astig IOL's.


It's my understanding that health insurance doesn't cover the upcharge for premium lenses, but they would still pay something.

Since you seem to know a lot about this can you elaborate more with respect to what you would pick if you needed cataract surgery. And no, I'm not asking for a friend.
50   ForcedTQ   2024 Jun 14, 10:39am  

Back to the original topic, if you can get to where 5% returns will generate 70% of your gross pre-retirement income you’ll probably be able to at least live the life you have been. Figure that your mortgage is paid off, no consumer debt, have a 6 month emergency fund, you won’t be paying payroll taxes and won’t be having 401k, IRA, or 403b contributions deducted. The biggee will be making sure to adjust your annual withdrawals to leave no less than what the accounts principal + devaluation of the dollar has been for that year. That way you can make sure to give yourself a COLA as the years go on. Not financial advise, just ideas to chew on.
51   zzyzzx   2024 Jun 14, 10:43am  

HeadSet says

B.A.C.A.H. says


What is a "defined benefit plan"?

This is where one gets a defined benefit at retirement, regardless of market or contributions.

For example:

A "defined contribution" plan is where one contributes a set amount, say 10% of pay, into a fund that one can withdraw from at retirement. When one exhausts the accumulated funds/stocks, the payments stop.

A "defined benefit" plan is where one gets a set amount of money every month indexed for inflation, typically after serving 20 years or so. Usually without vesting or contributions. Military retirement is one example, as are many California municipal pensions. Payments stop only upon death, although some can be inherited by a spouse or child.


Actually you can make your own defined benefit pension plan, it's called an annuity.
52   zzyzzx   2024 Jun 14, 10:44am  

Obligatory:

Although you actually need that several times over.
53   stereotomy   2024 Jun 14, 10:59am  

zzyzzx says

stereotomy says


LivFresh


$70 toothpaste?

It's worth every penny. I brush with it only five times a week and I have the gums of a 10 year-old. You don't need nearly as much as with regular paste, it's kind to sensitive teeth, and by brushing your tongue too you can say goodbye to halitosis.

I get it - PatNet is besieged with trolls, bots, and fluffers. And no, it's $30 for 1 tube. I'm grandfathered so I pay less. One tube is about a month for one person. Try it if you dare.

There are a few people on Patnet that relate true experiences and encourage others to try what they have done. @Rin is the outstanding example here. His recommendations brought my family through the fear of the scamdemic. I'm trying in my small way to pay back to the PatNet community.
54   Ceffer   2024 Jun 14, 11:15am  

I haven't used toothpaste of any kind forever. The bacteria are always in there, you just reduce their density and remove them from the surfaces and gum area so they don't become enlodged and erode enamel/dentin or build up tartar. Floss with unwaxed floss, or use a semi soft toothpick for in between the teeth.

There is a strong genetic component to tooth decay, so it can be the luck of the draw.

For halitosis, scrape and brush your tongue if you must with some kind of chemical.

Oddly, humans have a very toxic bite. A bitten adversary without antibiotics will likely fester badly.
55   WookieMan   2024 Jun 14, 12:48pm  

Ceffer says

There is a strong genetic component to tooth decay, so it can be the luck of the draw.

This. No pain, no cavities in 40 years. I'm sure there's problems, but if I don't have pain I ain't doing anything. I can eat what I want. Everyone I know that brushes 2-3 times a day has teeth issues. So could be genetics or I question if you overdo the cleaning that it makes the teeth more vulnerable.

With anything medical I question everything at this point. Maybe they tell you to brush more to expose your teeth more to the shit you eat so they stay in business. Or I have rocks for teeth? And yes I still brush daily at minimum. Everything is still a business. Technically if everyone brushed 3 times a day dentist would be out of business. They aren't. I notice this with my nurse friends. Hypochondriacs and their kids are always sick.
56   stereotomy   2024 Jun 14, 12:57pm  

It could very well come down to genetics - since I'm half-Irish, I inherited the rotten Irish teeth (which are even worse than english teeth).
57   clambo   2024 Jun 15, 4:18am  

There are three reasons to go to the dentist frequently.
1. Cavities are small if found quickly and are easy to fix. Today a CO2 laser is used instead of a drill, so no novacaine and the filling is done in 10 minutes.
2. Cleaning helps remove nasty bacteria which actually end up in your system, not just your mouth. No cleaning can result in gum disease and later loss of teeth.
3. Mouth cancer screening; this is pretty routine, and they use a special flashlight thing for a minute to see you are free of lesions.
58   Booger   2024 Jul 1, 5:33pm  

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/retiring-wealthy-now-means-more-3-million-many-us-states

Retiring Wealthy Now Means More Than $3 Million In Many U.S. States

The cost of living in American cities has skyrocketed so much that retirees now need more than $3 million to be considered "wealthy" in them, according to a new study from GoBankingRates.

In this study, a team of researchers first calculated the minimum savings needed to retire for 20, 25 and 30 years in America's 50 largest cities.

They analyzed each city's annual cost of living and subtracted the annual Social Security income (as sourced from the Social Security Administration's Monthly Statistical Snapshot as of May 2024).

Then, to find the savings needed to be "rich", the study took the minimum savings needed in each city and doubled those amounts. We ranked each city based on the smallest to largest amounts needed to be considered rich for 25 years of retirement.

The study found:

1. It takes more than $3,000,000 to be considered wealthy in 10 cities. The top three cities where you'll need the most savings to be rich are all in California: San Francisco (~$6,000,000), San Jose (~$5.5M) and Oakland (~$4.5M).
2. It takes significantly less savings to be wealthy in New York than it does in San Francisco. You'll need roughly $3.8M to retire rich in New York, which is substantially less than the $5.95M needed in San Francisco.
3. Austin is more expensive than many people realize. Austin was the 11th most expensive city on our list, ranking right next to Boston. In Austin, you'll need more than $2.5M to be considered rich for 25 years of retirement.

According to the data, the financial requirements for retirees looking to enjoy a rich lifestyle are particularly steep in cities such as San Francisco, San Jose, and New York City.

For instance, in San Francisco, the savings needed for a 20-year retirement amount to a staggering $4,757,745. Extending this to a 25-year retirement pushes the savings requirement to $5,947,182, and for a 30-year retirement, retirees would need an eye-watering $7,143,762. The annual cost of living after Social Security in San Francisco is $118,944, reflecting the high cost of living in this iconic city.

Similarly, San Jose demands equally substantial savings, with $4,422,401 needed for a 20-year retirement, rising to $6,640,241 for 30 years. The annual living cost post-Social Security here is $110,560, emphasizing the financial burden retirees face in the heart of Silicon Valley.

New York City, another major metropolitan area, requires retirees to save $3,069,460 for 20 years of retirement, increasing to $4,608,798 for 30 years. The annual cost of living after factoring in Social Security stands at $76,736, making it one of the most expensive cities to retire in. This trend is mirrored in other high-cost cities like Los Angeles and Oakland, where retirees need upwards of $2.8 million and $3.6 million respectively for a 20-year retirement, and the costs only escalate with longer retirement periods.
59   GNL   2024 Jul 1, 7:03pm  

stereotomy says

clambo says



I've spent more on dental work even with Delta Dental insurance.

I've been using Livionex (now LivFresh) for about 10 years, ever since I heard about it from a founder of the company on iTulip. It's fantastic - my gums are all 1-2 pocket, no plaque. My kid has braces and uses it - it completely inhibits bacterial biofilms, so the teeth and gums are clean. I wish I had this when I had braces back in the day.

If you've got gum/gengivitis problems, I'd recommend this 100%.

Ha, now find out the % of people who will ever achieve that or even half of that.
60   GNL   2024 Jul 1, 7:06pm  

It would take 120 years of saving $50,000 per year to reach $6,000,000 (of course that doesn't include investing profits but that total would be after tax however so...). Plus a paid off home and all of the expenses you had to pay over those 120 years. Yeah, almost no one is reaching that goal.
61   Blue   2024 Jul 1, 7:17pm  

Booger says


Similarly, San Jose demands equally substantial savings, with $4,422,401 needed for a 20-year retirement,


Few days ago, went to a store around after almost a year later, to buy Asian spices, and found that the packet sizes became half for about the same price! The nn% inflation is real more than wages growth! I did some basic math using the above mentioned amount and expenses. It could go for 16yr!

Assumption:
Principal in second column gains as much as inflation and keeps its value!
Principal in third column lose 10% overall every year, it should be the worst case!

principal:4400K, monthly_withdrawal:9K
yr, principal, principal_with_inflation(10%)
1, 4292K 3863K
2, 4184K 3379K
3, 4076K 2944K
4, 3968K 2553K
5, 3860K 2200K
6, 3752K 1883K
7, 3644K 1597K
8, 3536K 1340K
9, 3428K 1109K
10, 3320K 0901K
11, 3212K 0714K
12, 3104K 0545K
13, 2996K 0393K
14, 2888K 0257K
15, 2780K 0134K
16, 2672K 0023K
17, 2564K -076K

Lol! "Retirement" is a pipe dream for many around given the medial insurance, property, income, sales taxes, gas etc.
62   clambo   2024 Jul 1, 7:26pm  

I'm probably annoying you guys by repeating that medical insurance after 65 isn't too expensive; my total medicare premiums were $4300+ .
They deduct it from my social security payment.
Before 65 you might have expensive Obamacare if you have decent income.
We're all fucked because we think we're going to be healthy forever and that's not often true.
In retrospect, I should have spent more money earlier and traveled to exotic lands to enjoy the delights they have to offer.
Now I'm in a race against my inevitable decline, darnit.
63   AD   2024 Jul 2, 12:05am  

Blue says

Lol! "Retirement" is a pipe dream for many around given the medial insurance, property, income, sales taxes, gas etc.


it forces at least 80% of senior citizens to be thrifty and penny-pinch

for my family, they rent out a garage apartment attached to their home as an "accessory dwelling unit" (ADU)

housing is getting so expensive out west in the Rocky Mountain area that ADU's help senior citizens with property to get by with paying housing costs (property tax and insurance, property maintenance and repair, and utilities) and any left over rent goes to other expenses like food, car maintenance and gas, etc.

there are some legit work at home gigs like surveys, etc (check Rat Race Rebellion and Work at Home Job Queen) which can provide a few extra hundred dollars per month and are part of being the thrifty lifestyle

.
64   AD   2024 Jul 2, 12:18am  

.

The matter is that if you reached critical mass (as Bob Brinker would say), that you preserve your savings to sustain the desired life style.

I got a retired family member to realize this and at least put her money in a 60% bond/40% stock fund that earns about 6.5% a year (based on 2.5% annual inflation) in addition to renting out their garage apartment.

Got them to cut their telephone (land line) and cable, and they saved about $100 a month.

So they have a cell phone ($23 a month with Net10) and $50 a month broadband internet (to watch free streaming like Pluto TV and Tubi).

.
65   zzyzzx   2024 Jul 2, 5:08am  

clambo says
Today a CO2 laser is used instead of a drill


Is this newer technique covered by your dental insurance, or is this something that dentists are using to jack up prices and not have to deal with dental reimbursement rates?
66   zzyzzx   2024 Jul 2, 5:09am  

AD says

it forces at least 80% of senior citizens to be thrifty and penny-pinch


The thing is, I don't want to do that. What's the point in retiring unless you can do it in Caligulan Splendor?
67   zzyzzx   2024 Jul 2, 5:10am  

GNL says

It would take 120 years of saving $50,000 per year to reach $6,000,000 (of course that doesn't include investing profits but that total would be after tax however so...). Plus a paid off home and all of the expenses you had to pay over those 120 years. Yeah, almost no one is reaching that goal.


I have to figure everyone here has at least that much.
68   WookieMan   2024 Jul 2, 7:12am  

clambo says

In retrospect, I should have spent more money earlier and traveled to exotic lands to enjoy the delights they have to offer.

Ding ding for the win. I don't want to die, but I'm going to have fun in the process along the way to what is going to happen either way. I'm not afraid of death. It can happen at any time. That's why I push travel and fun here. Live a life with no regrets. For fucks sake look at Joe Biden. Regardless of the power and money, did that look like a fun life trip? Looks like hell to me.
69   clambo   2024 Jul 2, 7:58am  

The CO2 laser drill for dentistry has a few advantages; no needles in your gums, no waiting for the novacaine to take effect, no need to have a numb mouth afterwards.
The laser is also used for other things like gums.
The laser drill is not useful for replacing old silver amalgam fillings.
It's ok for quickly removing modern composit fillings.
I don't think the drill used makes a difference in the cost of a filling replacement, etc.
Pediatric dentists like the laser because kids hate needles 💉
70   gabbar   2024 Jul 2, 8:15am  

WookieMan says


That's why I push travel and fun here. Live a life with no regrets.

Heading to Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Park soon. But Glacier National Park made it to my bucket list for 2025
71   socal2   2024 Jul 2, 8:43am  

WookieMan says

Ding ding for the win. I don't want to die, but I'm going to have fun in the process along the way to what is going to happen either way. I'm not afraid of death. It can happen at any time. That's why I push travel and fun here.


Sounds like you have financial means and appreciate living the good life, but you are sticking it out in crap-ass Illinois? Need to stay near extended family?

California has lots of fucked up parts and is uber expensive (similar to Illinois), but California is still one the most beautiful places in North America will loads of fun stuff to do everyday and we don't lose 4-5 months with crappy winter. I look back at the last 30+ years living here with great access to surf, skiing, hiking and near perfect weather all year round - and wouldn't give it up for all the money in the world!
72   WookieMan   2024 Jul 2, 9:46am  

gabbar says

WookieMan says



That's why I push travel and fun here. Live a life with no regrets.

Heading to Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Park soon. But Glacier National Park made it to my bucket list for 2025

If you haven't been and aren't phone app apprehensive, get the GyPSy app for each park or a bundle. I guess they got bought out and it's Ridealong.com now.

I've been to Yellowstone 3-4 times. Tetons though it was my first time. Very helpful. Haven't been to Glacier, but they have it for that. Kind of pricey, but worth it in my opinion if you haven't been. They bundle parks. Not sure how long it takes until you have to pay for an upgrade, but the parks don't change, so not sure if it will get bricked or not in the future. I don't pump anything here generally, but it's well worth it.

socal2 says

Sounds like you have financial means and appreciate living the good life, but you are sticking it out in crap-ass Illinois? Need to stay near extended family?

Gonna be harsh, I give no fucks about family. We just make a lot of money here. Can't make as much in CA. 4.95% on $400-500k versus coming close to hitting that 13% income tax out in CA. Count me out. I can fly there for free. Golfed Torrey Pines less than a year ago and hit up San Diego. So I'm guessing near you.

Do I love IL, no. I can still have fun around here though and easily travel because my cost of living is so cheap. Just went to a Cubs/Brewers game in Wisconsin and tailgated. Fish local state parks. I love mountains and scenery but it's overrated to live around it. I don't care about weather either. Better beaches everywhere. I'd have to move closer to the equator to be happy with weather temp wise. Not the US basically. I just go to the fun in the free time.

I get why you guys like it out there, so not knocking it. The costs don't justify living there as I prefer to own and I'd be dropping $2-3M easy on a house out there. Hard no with the income tax and resetting the property tax for even more $$$. Done the math. Not worth it to move to Cali unless you're a renter and high income. IL is better on paper unless you can't deal with cold weather.
73   socal2   2024 Jul 2, 9:55am  

Yeah - but still sounds like you could live pretty comfortably in California. I could cash out and live like a king back east in a much larger house and probably retire 5 years early, but what's the point?

Like you, I want to enjoy life and life is short.

Imagine being able to golf Torrey Pines every week or month and no brutal winters?

Summers are great (and cheap) here too. We just drop the kids off at the local beach all day and pick them up in the afternoon.

That said, I am looking forward to visiting relatives and old friends in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana later this month when I bring my family home for a visit.
74   brazil66   2024 Jul 2, 9:57am  

I don't think I'll leave SoCal until I age out of surfing.

Quick anecdote for the surfers at PatNet:

I know a full-time county lifeguard who is near the end of his career. He's doing this wild schedule where he works a few days straight, then flies out to San Sebastian, Spain where his wife and son are living. They wanted to live in Europe for a year or so, and his schedule makes it doable (more or less). I saw some footage of the left at Mundaka going off a few months ago, so I texted him and asked if he surfed it that day. He said it was just OGs out there that day. He then told me that Europe is filled with fit, competitive surfers who have LOTS of time off for surfing. I said, "Damn, you're making HB Cliffs sound good."

I guess the grass is always greener on the other side of the planet. I think a lot of the surfing experience is what's going on between your ears.
75   Ceffer   2024 Jul 2, 10:03am  

The perspective is true. My wife's relatives in Louisiana live in large, well built and well appointed homes that wouldn't get you a fleabag trailer in Santa Cruz. They have income to travel as they please and spend time all over the country and abroad in the best accommodations, great resorts, and top flight hotels. They spend a bit of time in California at Tahoe. The key word is 'disposable income' that doesn't interfere with savings or home lifestyle.

I personally don't like travel that much. Spending time in airports, waiting on planes, getting the next destination hookup on time and place, delays, departure drama seems to hold charm for some. It's like breaking and setting up camp over and over. Aside from the occasional spectacle, it's kind of redundant and pointless activity. I like guided tours and learning packages when I do it.

The lady that does my hair goes on cruises and vacations about six or seven times a year. She and her husband are kind of compulsive about it and it does resemble compulsive traveling behavior. She has also described that every fifth or sixth trip or so is kind of a dud and a prolonged unpleasant experience. I heard that from compulsively traveling clients, too, when I had my business.
76   socal2   2024 Jul 2, 10:51am  

brazil66 says

I don't think I'll leave SoCal until I age out of surfing.


Amen!

There are a couple guys at my break who are definitely in their 70's and still killing it.

There is no sport, activity or enjoyment in this world (other than family) that holds a candle to good waves IMHO.
77   WookieMan   2024 Jul 2, 11:03am  

socal2 says

Yeah - but still sounds like you could live pretty comfortably in California. I could cash out and live like a king back east in a much larger house and probably retire 5 years early, but what's the point?

It's income. We don't have plug and replace jobs. I do I guess. Wife's is very specific and the money isn't any better in CA. Frankly the cold weather helps us in her industry. Freeze/thaw cycle every year. So she can make more here with the cold weather.

Plus creating a whole new network is a 2-5 year process. We'd probably drop to $150-200k income out there for a bit not including at least $20-50k moving costs. That doesn't work out there from the research I've done on cost of living.

Again, not bashing. My situation wouldn't work though. I have no issue with humidity right now or the cold months. Perfect? No. But it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Try Duluth, MN. 2 months of summer and then hell. I've been in Ely, MN and the high was 48ºF in July. There are worse places to live and my cost of living allows me to fly to other places. As an insomniac I'm usually only awake at night, so it's not like I could enjoy it out there either. Work or kids activities otherwise.
78   Ceffer   2024 Jul 2, 11:39am  

As usual, California snobs rely on 'Da wedder' pretense and seldom describe social circumstances. I have two friends who were born and raised in California and their Cali Chauvinism is like an old moth eaten coat full of holes. I am fine with them and we enjoy each other, but they literally get up in the morning dreaming of who they are going to fuck over and attack, or how to defend themselves against somebody going after them. My homeowner's in Santa Cruz may as well stock restraining order forms at the office. You can be poor and stoned and get by on welfare and mooches in various ways, but I'm not sure that such minimal lifestyles are rewarding, and in times like now when massive inflation taxation is rampant, those can be pushed out on the ice floes. Even where we bought our place in Santa Cruz, our humble hood has become increasingly gentrified with higher asset/income people.

People continually wonder how they can come to Coastal Cali to battle for their square inches in daily competition assault with money draining out of their pockets, and wind up after fifteen or twenty years with no close friends. We have known people who moved to Nashville or Houston and are incredibly shocked that they have genuine, nice friends, good value systems, and warm welcomes in a matter of months.

The Cali dream lifestyle that used to be accessible to ordinary 'middle class' and even lower middle class has moved increasingly into very high income categories who can also wall themselves off from the razor chatter. There are also increasing numbers of entitled groups of inheritors who can bypass some of the money draining stuff. Also, the rich are astronomically rich in Cali in the coastal areas, and competing with them can be a null proposition if you could be enjoying your life elsewhere.

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