patrick.net

It’s obvious that the principle purpose of some people is to whine and bitch about the fact that western criminal globalists perpetrated a coup in Ukraine which resulted in offending the Effective former government of Ukraine to the point of starting a war. And now rather than accept a negotiated settlement, these people want to whine and bitch some more.

It's all very interesting but it looks like you didn't read it.

Anybody else?

Jesus H Christ, not a sigle soul here read it?

I haven't either but looks like it's time.

I haven't read it either, but what I observe from the team of supposedly great negotiations looks like Al Bundy's bargaining for a new car and no one would brand that as anything resembling an art of dealmaking. Considering that they publicly opened with the following:

= No NATO for Ukraine, ever;
= No return of territories seized by Moscow regime since 2014, and probably not 2022;
= No real security guarantees for Ukraine;
= Willingness to withdraw troops from Europe;
= Ending of Pukin's paria status;
= Return of KGB spies disguised as "diplomats" to the DC;
= Joining them in demanding elections despite explicit constitutional prohibition of holding these during a hot war.

Which is basically matching the other side's ask upfornt. And they didn't get anything in return, not even a ceasefire which was indicated as being very desirable. Moreover, the opponent was made aware that our side is time-constrained, which is another great negotiation move. On par with Joe Biden's genius move of declaring a hard dedline for exiting Afgh by Sep 11, 2021.

It's like walking into a car dealership, informing them that you have no car at the moment, only want the make they're selling and nothing else, have not secured outside financing, need to start commuting to a new job 50 miles away tomorrow rain or shine or you'll lose your job, drop your pants, grab your ankles, lube up .... no, scratch lube, no time for lube ... 🤡

But maybe this is exactly how it is recommended in the book. Let us know.

Let us know how slow walking into WW3 and lobbing missiles into Russia’s interior was a better strategy. Ukraine fluffers have no grounds to criticize.

Trump wants the deal done. His “art of the deal” (which I have) is to offer many of the opposing side’s wishes up front to establish trust. Then seek concessions. Details are easier to hammer out when you’re not at odds. A particularly important approach when we’re at the brink of broader war.

This approach serves the dual purpose of insulting the neocons who wrecked Ukraine by stymying peace deals. Zelensky of course was elected to bring detente with Russia, not to declare himself martial law dictator, empty the country, sell off land to BlackRock, and promise to refill with third worlders.

Nail Fegusson is asking the same questions wrt negotiation tactics:

https://x.com/nfergus/status/1892589236957622709

goofus says

His “art of the deal” (which I have) is to offer many of the opposing side’s wishes up front to establish trust. Then seek concessions.

Did you read the book? Is this how "the art" is described there? Will using this tecnique give me better deal at a car dealership? Buying a house? Negotiating for a raise at work?

Let's imagine it for a moment:

"(goofus) Hello, Mr. Dealer, I'm willing to pay MSRP+ADR and I'm also willing to pay for paint protection, extended warranty and lifetime blinker fluid refill. And I need the car NOW. Now, let's hear how much you're going to give back, because I'm being this nice and friendly to you".

Clown world.

RWSGFY says

goofus says

His “art of the deal” (which I have) is to offer many of the opposing side’s wishes up front to establish trust. Then seek concessions.

Did you read the book? Is this how "the art" is described there? Will using this tecnique give me better deal at a car dealership? Buying a house? Negotiating for a raise at work?

Let's imagine it for a moment:

"(goofus) Hello, Mr. Dealer, I'm willing to pay MSRP+ADR and I'm also willing to pay for paint protection, extended warranty and lifetime blinker fluid refill. And I need the car NOW. Now, let's hear how much you're going to give back, because I'm being this nice and friendly to you".

Clown world.

I don't see anything wrong with that - the salesperson gets to check the boxes that he sold X,Y, Z and the buyer gets a discount equal to the total of the add-ons. What's not to like?

I would go into department stores in the 90's/naughties and routinely ask for discounts. Almost every time, the salespeople gave me 30 - 50 percent off.

I encourage everybody to haggle when it comes to non-essential (i.e., this won't work for food, fuel) stuff. I think you would be shocked at how accommodating salespeople can be.

The following interview is more instructive on Trump’s current thinking than a 35 year old book. Though AOTD also shows the thinking: negotiate a win-win for both parties. Establish good relationships with people and they’ll be glad to work with you later, too.

What rws etc may be missing: Trump’s big ask isn’t on Ukraine land boundaries, it’s on nuclear disarmament and trilateral drawdowns in defense spending (he hopes 50% from US, Russia, and China).

REPORTER: Would you want to have a conversation about defense spending, with you China, and Rusisa?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I'd like to have that as soon as things settle down. I'm gonna have that conference, primarily with China and Russia because those are the two that that really are out there, and we're gonna have them spend a lot less money and we're gonna spend a lot less money -- and I know they're gonna do it. They agreed to it, we were talking about de-nuking, de-nuclearizing, de-nuking, and President Putin and I agreed that we were gonna do it, in a very big way.

There's no reason for us to be building brand new nuclear weapons. We already have so many you could destroy the world 50 times over, 100 times over. And here we are building new nuclear weapons, and they're building nuclear weapons, and China's building new nuclear weapons, and China's trying to catch up because, you know, they're very substantially behind, but within 5 or 6 years they'll be even.

We're all spending a lot of money that we could be spending on other things that are actually, hopefully, much more productive. Hopefully, there'll never be a time when we need those weapons.

If there's ever a time when we need nuclear weapons, like the kind of weapons that we're building, and that Russia has and that China has, to a lesser extent, but will have, that's gonna be a very sad day. That's gonna be probably oblivion.

REPORTER: Do you want separate conversations or do you see one giant summit with you, Xi Jinping, and Vladimir Putin?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Yeah, I could see that. Just let things calm down a little bit, you know, when I left we had no Middle East problem, we had no Russia going into Ukraine. They never would have done it. Putin never would have done it.

And I came back and we got like the whole world is blowing up so when we straighten it all out, then I wanna have -- one of the first meetings I want to have is with President Xi of China and President Putin of Russia, and I wanna say: "Let's cut our military budget in half."

And we can do that, and I think we'll be able to do it.

REPORTER: If Elon Musk identifies wasteful spending in the Defense Department, defense contractors, and the like, are you willing to go after that spending as well?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: We have to do waste, fraud and abuse, yeah, and we're doing that.

REPORTER: I'm just wondering about your conversations on defense spending. Would you want to do that as a trilateral or would you use the existing body that also already includes China and Russia, the G20?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: No, it's the people. It's President Putin, President Xi. I don't need bodies, I don't need anything. It's people. It's all about people. It's about relationships and people and you know I've had a good relationship with President Putin, I've had a good relationship with President Xi.

It's about people and I think when things straighten out, which I hope will be in the not-too-distant future, the meeting I want to have first is a meeting with China and a meeting with Russia on slowing down, stopping, and reducing nuclear weapons, in particular, and also on not having to spend the kind of money we're all spending on weapons, military weapons generally.

REPORTER: I think my question is, would you have those meetings separately with each of those leaders, or would you try to bring them all together?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Both. You start off separately. Yeah, that's what was happening.

I was dealing with President Putin. We had really an understanding where we were gonna denuclearize -- what a beautiful term that is, right?

Denuclearize.

What a great thing, if we could do that. And we were gonna, he really liked the idea, and so did I and we had then called China, and China was very open to it, and then COVID hit and then we had a rigged election.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2025/02/13/trump_suggests_us_stop_building_nuclear_weapons_cut_pentagon_budget_in_half.html

PeopleUnited says

It’s obvious that the principle purpose of some people is to whine and bitch about the fact that western criminal globalists perpetrated a coup in Ukraine which resulted in offending the Effective former government of Ukraine to the point of starting a war. And now rather than accept a negotiated settlement, these people want to whine and bitch some more.

I remember some of what went down. There was the Winter Olympics in Sochi around February 2014 and a few months later there was a revolution in Ukraine, followed by Russia taking back Crimea and invading Donbas.

I recall the President of Ukraine wanted stronger economic relations with Russia, but those who overthrew him wanted Ukraine to join the European Union.

I suspect now even more Ukrainians do not want stronger relations with Russia, even the ones in eastern Ukraine that live outside of Donbas.
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AD says

I recall the President of Ukraine wanted stronger economic relations with Russia, but those who overthrew him wanted Ukraine to join the European Union.

I suspect now even more Ukrainians do not want stronger relations with Russia, even the ones in eastern Ukraine that live outside of Donbas

It sounds like you're implying that we must choose between Eastern and Western corruption. Is there no other way? Obviously Barry/Hillary/Nuland/deepstate thought it was a binary choice and implemented our form of corruption there.

Here we are 11 years after the coup . . .

stereotomy says

It sounds like you're implying that we must choose between Eastern and Western corruption.

No, I am not sure why you state this. I was just explaining how we got here. I did state there was a revolution in 2014 that overthrew the Ukraine President.

I realize the Obama administration had a primary role in it.

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I'm half way trough the book (chapter 7 of 14). So far no mention of "cuck out of the gate" negotiation technique.

It’s also available as pdf here: https://ia801405.us.archive.org/19/items/TrumpTheArtOfTheDeal/Trump%20The%20Art%20of%20the%20Deal.pdf

” The worst thing you can possibly do in a deal is seem desperate to make it. That makes the other guy smell blood, and then you’re dead. The best thing you can do is deal from strength, and leverage is the biggest strength you can have. Leverage is having something the other guy wants. Or better yet, needs. Or best of all, simply can’t do without.”

“ Much as it pays to emphasize the positive, there are times when the only choice is confrontation. In most cases I’m very easy to get along with. I’m very good to people who are good to me. But when people treat me badly or unfairly or try to take advantage of me, my general attitude, all my life, has been to fight back very hard. The risk is that you’ll make a bad situation worse, and I certainly don’t recommend this approach to everyone. But my experience is that if you’re fighting for something you believe in—even if it means alienating some people along the way—things usually work out for the best in the end.”

“ You can’t con people, at least not for long. You can create excitement, you can do wonderful promotion and get all kinds of press, and you can throw in a little hyperbole. But if you don’t deliver the goods, people will eventually catch on.”

1. Trump sees that Putin is willing to consign some mineral rights in eastern Ukraine, and Zelensky is not. Ukraine losing that land is now in the US’ interest. (Z is not a smart man.)

2. He’s already telegraphed (via press interview) that his highest goal is nuclear disarmament and defense spending reductions for Russia, China, and the U.S.

3. His leverage over Russia is that they want an end to this war — they’ve tried no fewer than five times to forge a peace agreement with Ukraine. China offered to broker the peace deal in 2023, and Saudi Arabia offered as well. NO ONE wants this war apart from “our” neocons and the politicians they’ve bought (including EU bureaucrats and Zelensky).

He needs to overcome Russia’s distrust of the west. In recognizing Putin’s position on NATO expansion, he creates breathing room. In treating eastern Ukraine as a fait accomplait, he indicates the real negotiation is over global security and disarmament.

If you’ve seen Putin interviews this week, he seems genuinely relieved. No one wants nuclear brinkmanship apart from nuts and oligarchs with Southern Hemisphere bunkers.

goofus says

3. His leverage over Russia is that they want an end to this war — they’ve tried no fewer than five times to forge a peace agreement with Ukraine. China offered to broker the peace deal in 2023, and Saudi Arabia offered as well. NO ONE wants this war apart from “our” neocons and the politicians they’ve bought (including EU bureaucrats and Zelensky).

They had Russian - Ukrainian negotiations in mid-2022, but it seemed like when Boris Johnson showed up those negotiations ended.

So all that did was allow western European governments to prolong the war and get Birdbrain Biden to spend at least $50 billion per year for Ukraine assistance.

But Germany paid the price when Anthony Blinken smirked on camera that Germany can buy a lot more American LNG since the pipeline from Russia was destroyed.

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AD says

They had Russian - Ukrainian negotiations in mid-2022, but it seemed like when Boris Johnson showed up those negotiations ended.

So all that did was allow western European governments to prolong the war and get Birdbrain Biden to spend at least $50 billion per year for Ukraine assistance.

But Germany paid the price when Anthony Blinken smirked on camera that Germany can buy a lot more American LNG since the pipeline from Russia was destroyed.

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Right, Johnson seems to have single-handedly prolonged the war by two years. He’s now responsible for what, 500k additional Ukrainian deaths?

Allies like Taiwan and Japan must look at this treatment of European allies, and Ukraine itself, as an abject warning. Do not trust the US, lesson learned. Hopefully Trump will undo some damage, but that and the unnecessary immigration crisis will be the Biden’s legacy.

goofus says

Hopefully Trump will undo some damage, but that and the unnecessary immigration crisis will be the Biden’s legacy.

And Birdbrain Biden's deficit spending well after the COVID crisis was under control like $375 billion in Green New Deal under the Inflation Reduction Act, $47 billion per year for student loan forgiveness and $50 billion per year to Ukraine (which how much of that never directly went to assist Ukraine?)

Trump at least proposed a $500 billion deal with Ukraine on mineral rights, but I suspect Trump would take a $200 billion deal to recover at least most of the Ukraine aid costs. At least its the total opposite of Birdbrain Biden's wacky dealings.

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I've finished the book.

It does not contain a single example or even mention of the negotiation tactic of giving up majority of the ask before the start of negotiations.

BTW, Lavrov has just rejected the idea of a ceasefire. So basically the reciprocation to all the concessions was exactly zero so far.

What happened tho the second meeting in SA between Rubio and Lavrov promised for Feb 25?

It didn't happen.

And now this:

Russia refuses to cease hostilities on the current front line, said Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, citing the Russian constitution.

THEIR CONSTITUTION PROHIBITS CEASEFIRE. CONSTITUTION, KARL!

But we were so nice to them and gave them so much and even pushed a completely cucked-out resolution through UN just yesterday...

I guess Donnie is to learn another negotiation technique - the Soviet one: no give - all take.

Soo, it's been what, one whole month of buddy-buddy with Vlady-Vlady (or 3 months if rumors of negotiations starting immediately after Nov 05th are true), lots of carrots (practically all of them) given right out of the door and even more promised and ... nothing in return. Absolutely nothing. Not even tentative agreement in principle to cease fire on the current LOC, as per alleged Trumpf peace plan (cease fire -> elections -> peace agreement). The Moscow regime maintains their maximalist demands. What now?

PS. How's that reading going on? Anybody else finished?

Trump has thrown ideas out there such as European troops as peacekeepers in Ukraine.

What he has shown is that he is willing to openly negotiate and propose concessions by trying to gauge interest from both Ukraine and the Kremlin.

So what has he lost ? He has not stopped funding for Ukraine.

Putin needs the deal more than Trump and Ukraine.

Putin is running out of cannon fodder; he's afraid to conscript more sacrificial guys because that will be very unpopular.

His land gain in Ukraine has cost 800,000+ casualties, of those about 220,000 are dead. This is accelerating.

Trump shot his mouth off and said "I'll end this war in a day." He should not write checks with his mouth that he can't back up.

Whether we like it or not, a safe Ukraine is in Europe's security interest, and a secure Europe is in American interests.

Trump should let Putin twist in the breeze for a while; it may be impossible for a reasonable solution with a maniac dictator.

LOL! There must be a lot of 'Putin and Russia failing miserably' porn around for the Putin Derangement Syndrome subscribers.

Are there comic books or something? Wars of attrition have costs on all sides.

I added Art of the Deal to my reading list.

AD says

Trump has thrown ideas out there such as European troops as peacekeepers in Ukraine.

Pukin pocketed the generous concessions and rejected all the "ideas": peacekeeping troops, ceasefire on the LOC, etc.

So Trump is now compelled to offer more concessions, which he promptly did, starting to talk about lifting sanctions. The book talks about using leverage, but this looks like erasing leverage with every step.

Ceffer says

LOL! There must be a lot of 'Putin and Russia failing miserably' porn around for the Putin Derangement Syndrome subscribers.

Are there comic books or something? Wars of attrition have costs on all sides.

Did you read the book? Have anything to say on the subject? A meme, maybe?

RWSGFY says

So Trump is now compelled to offer more concessions, which he promptly did, starting to talk about lifting sanctions. The book talks about using leverage, but this looks like erasing leverage with every step.

He has not met for negotiations with Putin. Putin said Ukraine can't be part of NATO and Trump says he agrees.

There needs to be at least 3rd party peace keepers, and Putin may compromise on that.

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With the two most recent decisions wrt stopping of cyber ops and military aid the whole negotiation strategy looks more and more like rolling over and showing belly.

That was most def not in the book.

RWSGFY says

With the two most recent decisions wrt stopping of cyber ops and military aid the whole negotiation strategy looks more and more like rolling over and showing belly.

That was most def not in the book.

Perhaps Trump has realized the enemy is not Putin, but the globalists who run Zelensky, Starmer, and Macron. Stopping funding (with the pretext of Z’s tantrum last Fri) is in our interest. Allowing globalists to ensnare us via NATO’s article 5, not so much.

So, two days ago the last carrot - suspension of intelligence sharing with Ukraine - has been handed out like candy to Pukin.

Today we have little Marco saying this:

Can we try to sit with them and figure out whether there's anything -- what are the Russians' demands? Under what conditions would the Russians be willing to stop this war?

Which means they got absolutely nothing in return for all the concessions, didn't even have a proper sit-down (the meetings in Ryiad and Istanbul in Feb were apparently some technical bs about embassies and nothing else) and just standing there with dicks in hand inviting the Soviets to make bigger demands, because their previous ones have already been fulfilled.

This looks super weak. Which chapter of the great book describes this strategy again? I can't find it.

Aaaand another card given away for absolutely nothing:

Soo, after all the sound and the fury, demands from Zel to agree to a full and immediate ceasefire for 30 days and finally getting it, our Donnie goes on a phone call with Vlady-buddy to "get the peace and divide some assets" and gets .... a vague promise to maybe not strike energy infrastructure, i.e. the same stuff Zel offered earlier (and let to a tantrum, stoppage of military aid and intelligence sharing because it was "not good enough" and "it's easier to deal with Pukin than with Zel). Suddenly Donnie is OK and even happy with it? It's "easier to deal with Pukin than with Zel" but he's not getting what he wants from him. And that hockey shit? WTF was that? He can't order NHL to play with the orcs, especially taking into account that 1/3 of the teams are Canucks.

Honestly, this whole thing looks like a little Chihuahua bitch running after some guy and trying to hump his leg and being kicked away (and Donnie is not the one whose leg is being humped, to be clear). It's weak and cringe AF. And definitely not something seen in the book.

Zelinski is like the midget who's goaded to fight the jock, with the promise that a bruiser will step in if things get too hairy.

The bruiser has walked away, now it's just the midget against 6'5" and 230 lbs. of jock. Maybe a few other midgets might pile on (Canada, UK, France) but the outcome at this point is certain.

I did back in the 80s

Another concession to the Soviets has been given: the so-called ceasefire on the Black Sea. This favors only one side, since Ukraine has been in control of the Black Sea for more than a year now, Ukrainian exports are flowing freely and the remnants of the Red fleet is corked up in Novorossiysk (refer to the "Black Sea Fleet neutered" thread for details).

Meanwhile, Donnie's idea of 30-day total ceasfire is still being rejected by Pukin (while being fully endorsed by Zel).

And Ham-ass ceasfire achieved by leaning on Israel has effectively collapsed too.

The bizzare negotiation stragegy of pressing and shitting on allies and cucking out to adversaries continues to bear zero fruit. And yet, it continues.

Definitely not something described in the book.

https://yuribezmenov.substack.com/p/trump-apprentice-tips-for-success

Comrades: Donald Trump Tweeted before Twitter existed.

In every episode of The Apprentice, he gave one tip for success that was ~30 seconds long. They were simple, punchy, Tweet-sized nuggets of common sense business wisdom. In many cases, they foreshadowed his reasoning for firing a contestant at the end of an episode.

I have transcribed all 63 of these tips below. You will be hard pressed to find anything controversial, wrong, or dumb. They also shed insight on how he operates.

RWSGFY says

With the two most recent decisions wrt stopping of cyber ops and military aid the whole negotiation strategy looks more and more like rolling over and showing belly.

That was most def not in the book.

yes its like playing poker and being coy

but don't be too adversarial or hyper competitive to the point that the other side does not want to play cards (or meet at the negotiation table to ultimately handshake a deal)

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So, even the supposed limited ceasefire is not happening IRL. What's Donnie gonna concede next in order to "be coy" and "play pocker"?