patrick.net

George,

Thank you for shedding some light on a complex topic. You continue to bring up tangents I hadn't considered. I can't speak for PS but rejection is part of life so that doesn't really confront me if the rewards are there. I suspect that over the next several months a glut of "investor" properties will come on the market (yes, no matter where you live) as we are seeing this already in heavily speculated markets. It's just interesting enough that like PS I'll continue to track this possibility as it develops. This much I do know; we've all had friends or associates that have leased a building and the "owner" turned out to be a real flake. No question there. When the "owner" proves to be unreliable the lender quickly becomes more interested in the tenant that has remained current, done improvements and proven themselves reliable. The current occupant naturally becomes the primary focus b/c they have shown that they can make the property viable. Just b/c you are paying YOUR rent on time doesn't mean that your landlord is honoring his debt obligations. Sometimes all you have to do is ask around a little.

Athena wrote:

> FAB… I dont’ know that I would agree with the
> statement that women work as little as possible…

That sounded a little harsh, but after years of hearing that "men and women are the same" from the PC crowd I've noticed that if you have 100 men and 100 women with $50 million dollars that could do anything they wanted most (but not all) the men would work full time and most (but not all) the women would stay home with their kids. Over the years I have I have met very very few women who work more than they need to while I know hundreds of men who don't "need" to work and work because they want to...

Athena
I SOOO agree with you in most respects. I find most of the women I can't even pretend to tolerate are the unemployed"kept" women. Their lives seem to get real small and their values real petty. I have always been proud of the fact that I have earned my own money, I am very capable without a man, and can generally figure things out for myself...though I have been married for a long time(17yrs).
You are the woman I'd seek out and talk to at a party.Strength of character,opinionated, smart...gotta love those qualities! :)

FormerAptBroker,

Smart women tend to meet smart guys and if the guys do well the women don’t work at all (or very little).

I'm not sure if I qualify as smart or as a reasonable "catch" for my "smart and wanted to have it all wife", but I ensure you she works every bit as hard as I. Although your generalizations about women may hold true much of the time (something I'm unconvinced of), what makes life worth living happens in the margins, where generalizations and stereotypes don't apply.

Please just remember that making broad generalizations -- even about what you anecdotally consider to be "most but not all" -- has an amplified effect on the "not all" portion you refer to. Being that my wife is a specific counter example of your position, and that I have been there to support her as she has fought many professional and personal battles because of the type of loose thinking you are demonstrating, I am a bit sensitive to the subject.

Your arguments also imply that I must somehow be an inadequate spouse for my wife, for if I were successful enough, then she wouldn't even want to work. Or, perhaps the problem is I prefer a woman my own age?

To make this working vs. stay-at-home mom discussion relevant to the BA, did any of you remember this article from the Aug '05 issue of SF Mag???

**********
The Woodside Four
Got baby? With the Peninsula's smart set, four's the magic number.
By Leslie Gordon

They spend their time packing junk food-free lunch boxes instead of Vuitton briefcases. They've traded courtroom skirmishes for PTA dustups. And only once in a while do they think about whether their Ivy League degrees prepared them for their current job as minivan chauffeur.

Welcome to the lush, lavish suburbs of the Peninsula, where a baby boom among well-to-do women is giving rise to the moniker Woodside Four—named after women who love motherhood so much they have not two, not three, but four kids. Having escaped cramped, child-unfriendly San Francisco, where schools are shuttering and backyards are as teeny as a $500,000 condo, these women traded up with bigger homes, husbands with bigger paychecks, and, of course, bigger families. And before you hurl a barrage of Stepford comments their way, consider this: while many wealthy city women prefer to indulge in the three Cs—clothing, careers, and cosmetic surgery—Woodside, Los Altos, and Atherton moms are only OD'ing on children.

"My standing joke is that if it was the 1950s, I'd have eight kids," says Woodside PTA president Liz Dressel, a mother of four girls ages three to ten. A former real estate attorney, Dressel has long focused her energies on playing Blue's Clues, making trips to Roberts  Market to load up on Pirate's Booty, and washing out ziplock bags (she's an environmentalist). She says she prefers the commotion of kids to the law, and her three best friends in Woodside, all former professionals as well, are also moms of four. And we're not talking about fertility "accidents" here. Throughout the upscale suburbs of the Peninsula, families of five and six are as common as ear infections.

What gives? In the Third World, international aid workers educate women in order to lower the birthrate. But many Woodside Four moms claim they're just influenced by having grown up in large families. Only thing is, their moms came of age in the fifties and sixties, before women entered the workforce in droves. Today, having a family of four, even with a platoon of nannies and housekeepers in tow, essentially ensures that any careers these women might have had once upon a time are deader than Sesame Street's beloved Mr. Hooper.

Others attribute the preference for four as inflation creeping into mothering—for well-off women, at least. "Three is the new two," says Eileen Aicardi, a San Francisco pediatrician whose practice is filled with upper-income patients. "So when mothers who can afford it feel like they've been there and done that, they go for four or more kids."

Eliza Foxcreek, a mother of three in San Francisco, has several friends who are Woodside Four moms and believes that a culture of hyperachievement is a factor. "When former career women become parents, there's this ‘How do I superachieve, how do I get my ya-yas in another realm?'" says Foxcreek, a Stanford MBA. "They put it all into having kids." And with seemingly everyone around you popping out one baby after another, having four children seems perfectly normal, if not a subtle marker of status. As Foxcreek explains, "There's something impressive about being fecund, about starting a clan."

*********

Besides being a major fluff piece, it is interesting in light of this discussion re: the line, "Having escaped cramped, child-unfriendly San Francisco, where schools are shuttering and backyards are as teeny as a $500,000 condo, these women traded up with bigger homes, husbands with bigger paychecks, and, of course, bigger families." A little harsh, but is there truth to the sentiment??

astrid Says:

> I don’t mind professional women taking a couple
> years off for child rearing and take up volunteer
> work. But if that’s their plan all along, why don’t
> they just get their MRS in college/HS and start baby
> making immediately? A lot of people would love to
> take their spots in grad school and continue working.

I saw a study a while back that looked at the percentage of male and female Harvard Law School and Harvard Business School grads that were still working full time in their 40's. It was almost all the men and about half the women. A friend of mine (that is a Harvard Law school grad) commented that the main reason the number of men still working was not closer to 100% was due to guys dying young. This same friend made a comment when Sandra Day O'Conner retired that every guy he knows would have to be carried out of the Supreme Court on their backs...

SQT,

I stayed home for the first couple of years when our child was born. If that means I gave up my "man card", then I was happy to do it. I have a relationship with my son now because of that time caring for him that many men would do well to experience. Even though we both now work, I am still the "flex parent", who is available on-demand for child-related things. It is a utilitarian decision for us. My wife is a Controller, so she has little flexibility. I'm a ... hmmm, what am I? Anyway, I am mega-flexible, so I should be the one to take the point with our son.

Then again, I find stigmas generally annoying. If anyone insists there is a "normal way" of things I'll be sure to go out of my way to do something else altogether.

SQT,

If by rarity you mean oddity, sure I admit it!

BA,

Thanks for keying us in! Just another trick up the sleeve to give the appearance of normality. It wasn't long ago that those bothersome details would have been covered during the ensuing "bidding war" so now (and I believe you are right on this one) recent buyers probably SHOULD be challenging their tax bills.

We're in the mom work vs. no work situation as well, directly impacted by BA real estate prices. By normal US standards, we make a good combined salary (2+HaHa's between the two of us). However, in the BA, with a baby, the wife will be going back to work at the end of the summer in large part b/c otherwise we won't be able to afford more than some stucco box in the Peninsula when we eventually buy (at the nadir of the market!!) It turns out, she has a lot more earning potential (attorney) than I do (MD), so if anything, I should quit and stay at home...

skibum,

It turns out, she has a lot more earning potential (attorney) than I do (MD), so if anything, I should quit and stay at home…

I'm biased, but if you do decide to stay home, at least a while, you won't ever regret it. Myself, I found no real resistance blending in with other neighborhood at home moms. We all took the kids to the park together, and they actually seemed to appreciate having a guy around in the group.

PS,

Understood! Just for the record though most guys don't take rejection all that well. I got to the same point you did, someone would actually say YES and I would just keep selling until I realized I'd better shut up and take their business. Funny world, ain't it? I have to agree, the very thing that attracted me to the lease option arena was the fact that most of the faint of heart would simply say it's not worth the trouble. "I'll just go ahead and buy the damn thing!" Perhaps that is what should have been said, this is not for the faint of heart.