patrick.net

Ironman says

Wait, weren't you whining and bitching about the tax credit Trump was giving to Carrier in Indy???

Try to keep up. This is the exact point I made way back in post 54.

YesYNot says

Why are you against a sweetheart deal here, but all for Trump's Carrier sweetheart deal where the company gets to avoid paying the standard tax?

I don't like the race to the bottom. It's happening, because localities are desperate for business, so they give away too much to get a few jobs. Carrier was just more of the same deal. I expect it won't last though, as it was a political stunt, and the threat of losing unrelated business with the US gov was a driver. Once the political spotlight is gone, they will move the plant. But that's another story.

YesYNot says

I don't like the race to the bottom. It's happening, because localities are desperate for business, so they give away too much to get a few jobs.

How do you know what is too much? Sounds like you are against anything Trump does, only for political reasons.
Put America First.

It's a classic prisoners dilemma. If all states refused to give such deals, they would be better off. Once they all start competing, they get less overall despite getting more on a particular deal.

Strategist says

How do you know what is too much?

When I did the math, it was something like $1500 or$2000 per job iirc. Sounds like a lot to me.

YesYNot says

Strategist says

How do you know what is too much?

When I did the math, it was something like $1500 or$2000 per job iirc. Sounds like a lot to me.

Show me the math.

Look, if i can buy some cheap china crap I don't even need for a couple sheckles less, all is well. Fuck those factory workers, they need to get their affairs in order, get a gig pushing paper and crunching numbers, pack up from Shitsville, FlyOver Country. Get with the program. "Free Trade" is great, so long as i can be programmed to think it benefits me, fuck all if it displaces any fellow countrymen

errc says

Bernie absolutely would have won the election, with even a half fair shake.

Just out of curiosity, how young are you ?

As I said, but I know you can't get this:

the right wing media doesn't even bother arguing against socialism anymore. In fact they like Bernie for his ability to split the democratic party. They knew all along that Hillary was who they were up against.

Socialism is so far from winning (and was this cycle) that it's not even on the right wing's list of top 3 things to worry about. To you that means it (socialism) and he (Bernie) could win. It will win eventually, and right before then you will find out what the plutocrats do when socialism is close to winning (unlike Bernie was).

Logan Mohtashami says

Older America leaving matters a lot if they don't have a work force consumption and working to take it's place

Hence why I am not worried about America demographics or robots taking all the jobs

Well, the question remains who of all those slow growth nations we trade with will buy our stuff.

i am an immigrant and i think the U.S is still a great place to live.

the complaining immigrants are the poor ones. sorry just speaking the truths no hate plz.

what recession. there are only 2 weeks left

dont quit your day job

Mark D says

what recession. there are only 2 weeks left

Time Stamp your 2016 Recession Call Now
By Logan Mohtashami Jan 18, 9:27am

Since the Dow is near 20,000 , this means Harry Dent is off on his Dow 6,000 call by 14,000...

Do you know how hard it is to be off 14,000 dow points on your call

Tim Aurora says

Putin’s Communist government (extreme left)

Why do you claim that Putin's government is Communist? Putin's party is the United Russia party, the ruling party in Russia which holds a majority of seats in the Duma.

"Although the United Russia Party's popularity has declined from its peak of 64.4% in the 2007 Duma elections to 49.32% in the 2011 elections, United Russia remains the most popular party in the country, ahead of the second-placed Communist Party at 19.19%."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Russia

Putin is an authoritarian and nationalist.

good news is price of gas is also rising as oil recovers.

Logan Mohtashami says

Wait I found a chart that is really ugly

LOL!!!

Just out of curiosity, how young are you ?

35

--------------

Socialism is so far from winning

What does that have to do with Bernie? He ran on a platform to replace the heinously inefficient Lemon Socialism that we suffer through currently, with Democratic Socialism.

Pretty much all his planks are wildly popular, just like he is. A Dem jew one man wrecking crew from deep red Vermont, with his 85% favorable rating while being a sitting Senator in a Senate with an 11% approval rating.

The enthusiasm for Bernie was off the charts, and with good reason. He would have molly wopped Trump

Blurtman says

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Russia

Wikipedia, the site that said Plato was a Hawaiian surfer taught by Barney the Dinosaur. Yep, quoting that makes you look smart.

Dan8267 says

Wikipedia, the site that said Plato was a Hawaiian surfer taught by Barney the Dinosaur. Yep, quoting that makes you look smart.

Being a lazy ass and not being able to refute Wiki certainly doesn't make one look smart.

"United Russia
The party of Vladimir Putin and Dmitry Medvedev. This conservative and nationalist party, founded in 2001, is the largest in Russia with more than 2 million members. It holds an overwhelming majority of seats in both the Duma and regional parliaments, as well as committee chairmanships and posts on the Duma's steering committee. It claims to hold the centrist mantle as its platform includes both free markets and redistribution of some wealth. The party of power is often seen as operating with a main goal of keeping its leaders in power.

http://worldnews.about.com/od/russia/tp/Political-Parties-In-Russia.htm

The party advocates political and socio-economic stability and the revival of Russia's status as a superpower. It describes itself as centrist and conservative, basing its ideology on traditional Russian values and the notion of Russia's unique identity.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-15939801

Tim Aurora,
Check this out.

Tenpoundbass says

I wipe my ass on your flag.

I shit on your SOCIALIST FLAG!
You want to enjoy all the benefits paid for by real men's taxes?
You are happy to enjoy the sweat of others? PATRIOT for SOCIALISM?
Did you build the highway system,electrical grid,water distribution systems,military,etc. by yourself
with the hundreds of trillions of dollars that you have made because you are a financial genius?
Did you answer "YES SIR" to bosses with your tail tucked between your legs when told what to do & waited to get a puny little check each pay period & "YES MAM" & " THANK YOU MAM" when handed your check and willingly accepted the confiscated dollars taken by your BELOVED SOCIALIST COUNTRY?
Dumbass Trump voters pay taxes. Trump & some of us don't pay taxes because we are "smart".
Real AMERICANS worked for themselves all their lives & NEVER answered to anyone because they are MEN & are FREE.
Are you paying cash for your healthcare regardless of cost or
"Oh! No! I can't! I want to socialize the cost to everyone else because I'm a FAILURE!"?
This country would be better off full of super radicalized Wahabi Muslims than one Rightwing/Rep/Con/Tea/Neo-Nazi/Socialist sucking on the govt. teat.
I'm going outside. I love the glow of your SOCIALIST FLAG burning at night.
Did your DNA test tell how much black slave blood you have? Damn! That's an insult to black slaves!
Were you molested at an early age? Did you sing "loud and proud" HARDER! DADDY! HARDER?
Just asking.

Tim Aurora,
This is an example of PLUPERFECT,EXPERT,AD HOMINEM patnet trolling.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ad+hominem
1. Attacking a person's character or motivations rather than a position or argument
2. Appealing to the emotions rather than to logic or reason.

I got the SOCIALIST part right.

Logan Mohtashami says

Since the Dow is near 20,000 , this means Harry Dent is off on his Dow 6,000 call by 14,000...

Do you know how hard it is to be off 14,000 dow points on your call

Even my dog can do better.

Time to cash out and hold before the apocalypse...

Strategist says

Another day another high.

Thank You Santa Trump.

"Where's the evidence?"

Is that a joke? I posted it on this very thread earlier. Here, I'll post it again for you though since you obviously didn't read it.

https://www.crowdstrike.com/blog/bears-midst-intrusion-democratic-national-committee/

Ranina ranina says

Time to cash out and hold before the apocalypse...

Strategist says

Another day another high.


Thank You Santa Trump.

Might see a temporary pull back, considering we are hitting 20,000 on the Dow.

Obligatory:

Tenpoundbass says

America love it or get the fuck out. That goes for loving Old White Crackers we come with the sandwich Assholes!

Bernie could not be controlled by the ivory tower elites, therefore he was rendered irrelevant...

errc says

Nothing naive about that. Bernie absolutely would have won the election, with even a half fair shake. He came close, and that was with both parties doing everything possible to deny him in the primary.

http://www.threatgeek.com/2016/06/dnc_update.html

"JoJo doesn't have any, he's been asked MULTIPLE times to produce facts... so far.... crickets....He's just another paid shill of the DNC."

I posed it on this very thread yesterday. Can you not read?

Good hint. So we know you're from the south...

Tim Aurora says

Good, I like that ad hominem.

"Ahhh...
So it's BETTER for a company to close down it's factory and move to another country, lay off all it's workers and they go on unemployment, all local business shut down because the employees aren't shopping local, no real estate taxes being paid by company, all the suppliers to the company have economic hardship, utility companies suffer, etc. etc. etc.
Sounds like utopia in your world."

Nope--it's better if Trump grew a pair and actually made a GOOD deal. Threaten the company with tariffs, loss of government contracts, etc. if they move jobs rather than giving away taxpayer dollars.

www.youtube.com/embed/Avi0H5T7rrE

Leftie tolerance and peace.
www.youtube.com/embed/BXpi3F0E5ro

Good post. There was a lot of effective propaganda this cycle. It was astounding to see what people would believe/think.

Ironman says

So it's BETTER for a company to close down it's factory and move to another country, lay off all it's workers and they go on unemployment, all local business shut down because the employees aren't shopping local, no real estate taxes being paid by company, all the suppliers to the company have economic hardship, utility companies suffer, etc. etc. et

You are confusing interstate competition with intercountry competition. While there are parallels, there is less basis for cooperation between countries. As far as the carrier deal in particular goes, it's more complicated than one company. If you have 40 customers, and one threatens to leave, would you give them a 50% discount to stay if it were still profitable to you? What if all of the other customers know about the discount? Does that change the analysis? Of course it does. Your overall profit might go down once the other customers are done negotiating with you.

Strategist says

Show me the math

They got a $7M tax break, I think. They saved 1100 or 800 jobs depending on who you ask. $7,000,000 / 800 jobs = $8750 per job. $7,000,000 / 1100 jobs = $6400 / job. That's a lot of money coming straight out of other peoples pockets to employ these people. As for the 'some tax money is better than none' argument, see my response to Ironman above.

YesYNot says

Strategist says

Show me the math

They got a $7M tax break, I think. They saved 1100 or 800 jobs depending on who you ask. $7,000,000 / 800 jobs = $8750 per job. $7,000,000 / 1100 jobs = $6400 / job. That's a lot of money coming straight out of other peoples pockets to employ these people. As for the 'some tax money is better than none' argument, see my response to Ironman above.

That's the cost over 10 years. It's also only part of the equation. What about the benefits over 1o years?

YesYNot says

They got a $7M tax break, I think. They saved 1100 or 800 jobs depending on who you ask. $7,000,000 / 800 jobs = $8750 per job. $7,000,000 / 1100 jobs = $6400 / job. That's a lot of money coming straight out of other peoples pockets to employ these people

Leftie logic. Tax break vs welfare. There was even one leftie loon congress critter saying we ought to drug test tax break corporations like welfare.

When you give a company a tax break-it basically means you are taxing them at a much lower effective rate.
When you are giving someone welfare-like illegals-you are taking money from my pocket and giving to them.

Lefties are so used to the welfare state that they feel entitled to other people's money.

YesYNot says

They got a $7M tax break, I think. They saved 1100 or 800 jobs depending on who you ask. $7,000,000 / 800 jobs = $8750 per job. $7,000,000 / 1100 jobs = $6400 / job.

Over a decade, not annually. So it's $700,000/year for 800 employees = $1,250/yr per employee.

The typical Carrier employee makes $23/hr. At 40 hours, 50 weeks a year that's about $45,000/yr.

Most of those employees will be paying more than $1250/year in federal income tax.
With Indiana's ~3% state income tax, they'll be paying about $1250k/year in state income tax.

Plus the state gets all the other taxes associated with Carrier, from property taxes to business taxes; the employees with decent jobs paying sales taxes on the shit they buy.

When you make $23/hr you can buy a lot more sales taxable items than when you make $9/hr at some Warehouse stocking imported Chinese Crap, which is the High Tech Job of the Future* the employees would likely get if Carrier left.

* 1993 Clinton State of the Union on signing NAFTA
http://www.infoplease.com/t/hist/state-of-the-union/206.html

Well all know short term things are over bought... but this is just icing on the cake and the Jan PMI bears of 2016 when stocks had their worst start ever in history, were so sure on the collapse of America

Discipline would have told you not to dance with the collapse devil in the pale moonlight

Logan Mohtashami says

Well all know short term things are over bought... but this is just icing on the cake and the Jan PMI bears of 2016 when stocks had their worst start ever in history, were so sure on the collapse of America

Discipline would have told you not to dance with the collapse devil in the pale moonlight

Bears are getting desperate. It's what happens when you've been wrong for 8 straight years.

Tim Aurora says

Got it . I agree that I was wrong in stating Putin as communist. He is a fascist.

And the banks run the USA.

Strategist says

That's the cost over 10 years. It's also only part of the equation. What about the benefits over 1o years?

That's probably why I remembered something on the order of $1000 or $2000. It's been a while. Anyway, IMO, it's too much when you consider that other companies will want the same. Plus, I doubt those Carrier employees will be getting $23 an hour. I read that they are taking a pay cut. In addition, as I wrote elsewhere, I think this deal had a bit of implied coercion due to the parent companies deals with the gov. In any case, it wasn't an arms length transaction. It will likely only be a two year deal. We'll see.

As far as the Indiana income tax goes, I doubt these guys will be paying $1250 after deductions. Plus, these guys would probably get paid more than $9 and hour if they had to get another job. Indiana would collect tax on that income, so you cannot just tally up that $1250 as new income.

Trump's success doesn't hinge on this deal. It hinges on whether or not he can increase wages for blue collar workers. That's ultimately the promise that got their vote. Carrier is symbolic.