patrick.net

YesYNot says

The alternative solution, which is just to ignore the problem due to lack of familiarity or certainty with the model doesn't seem good to me.

Would you stop a CAT 5 hurricane if there is a chance it might run into something else?

With multiple actors in this world, big policy moves can have very undesirable side effects.

In finance, some models are good enough even if they are wrong 60% (!) of the time because they still produce profits in the long run. It is very hard to make decisions using models when you cannot shrug it off and try another day.

Hater says

How much co2 is not enough?

Look, I know that more CO2 helps plants grow. It's especially good for tomatoes. I have seen plans to pump CO2 into greenhouses for growing tomatoes. But I think that the benefit of this will be tiny relative to the costs. Excess heat is bad for plants, so plants will have to be engineered and moved or replaced with other plants. Much more importantly, the effects of a global increase in temperature of 2-4 oC are greatly underappreciated.

YesYNot says

This is always a danger. For example, if we develop electric cars, but fail to develop clean electricity and then develop self driving cars, we might create the ultimate climate destroyer. Electricity can be cheap, so who wouldn't want a van that they could turn into a sleeper car and wake up Saturday morning 8 hrs away from home? It would be much cheaper and easier than flying up and down the coast.

Car-as-a-service (using self-driving cars) will be much better. Also, VR/AR technology can eliminate the need for many types of travel.

YesYNot says

Environmental scientists and economists are aware of these issues, though. Politicians have the tools if they have the willingness to use them.

They are, within their domain. But experts are known to be domain dependent. Worse yet, politicians will game the system and the experts might play along.

Peter P says

In finance, some models are good enough even if they are wrong 60% (!) of the time because they still produce profits in the long run.

I would say that the same is true for climate change. They don't have to tell you what is happening year to year. They just have to predict what is happening over 25 years to be useful for decision making. They don't have go get everything just right to be useful either.

There are lots of financial models are useless for year to year predictions, but are useful for planning over longer periods.

YesYNot says

I would say that the same is true for climate change. They don't have to tell you what is happening year to year. They just have to predict what is happening over 25 years to be useful for decision making. They don't have go get everything just right to be useful either.

True. And the models will be less problematic if they are used mostly by cities for better preparedness.

If the models are used to make big policy changes, it will be Battle Royale. Will large interest groups agree to proposals based on a minor statistical probability?

Scientists have made questionable suggestions before, like eugenics. Science might be objective, but the human layer on top is not.

YesYNot says

This is always a danger. For example, if we develop electric cars, but fail to develop clean electricity and then develop self driving cars, we might create the ultimate climate destroyer. Electricity can be cheap, so who wouldn't want a van that they could turn into a sleeper car and wake up Saturday morning 8 hrs away from home? It would be much cheaper and easier than flying up and down the coast.

What are the chances of success and probability of catastrophe if you try to do several things at once?

Nuclear Power first, then electric cars. And it has to be nukes, nothing else scales right now. Future Technology that seems feasible today may run into major implementation problems tomorrow, or be discovered to be less efficient, more costly, or simply not possible.

And in actuality, the real solution to an input problem is finding a way to do without the input (ie get rid of cars, entirely). Since huge human cities with skyscrapers and electric were around before car ownership was widespread and common, this is something we already know how to do.

I'd sell suburbs short over the next 50 years if I could.

Ironman says

Is water higher in one end of a swimming pool then the other?

If the pool is big enough, you bet.

It appears you need to learn about general lunar tide science, ocean currents, and heat of expansion as well. (Hint: gravitational influence, how water flows over topography, and uneven heating of the ocean surface can pool water in localized areas.)

You are too far below a typical science education to have any worthwhile discussion here.

Just read up past Ironman distraction. That was some good discussion gents. Cheers.

LOL ... you cannot reframe your pool comment. You think a pool is a good representation of an ocean. You also think CO2ppm level on the order of those that would cause respiratory issues are levels that matter for climate change. Further, you think the vast geological timescale of the Earth's atmosphere is highly relevant and predictive of Earth climate now.

You need to "read up" in a basic high school science text. It appears to be willful ignorance with you.

jazz music says

Dickless apologists are lining up right now to claim that Trump is the greatest accordion player ever.

An accordion SUCKS air.
Trumpsters SUCK liquid.

jazz music says

Tthis is the largest redistribution in American history from the poor and middle-class of America to the rich.

We will all be Kansas,a budget disaster.
Silver Spoon Trump voters will hurt just like all Americans in this Republican FUBAR.

jazz music says

Tthis is the largest redistribution in American history from the poor and middle-class of America to the rich.

This is class warfare with a vengeance.

Everyone will benefit from those tax cuts. The poor don't pay taxes, but their benefits are not being cut.

Still way better than Hillary.

rando says

Still way better than Hillary.

How is nothing but incompetence better than Hillary?

BayArea says

how should one dress to minimize risk of injury but still be there?

She cancelled the visit eh?

Rew says

That was some good discussion gents.

Yeah. That was better.

Ironman, if you care, the polar ice sheets are huge. Like all mass, they exert a gravitational pull on other mass. The ice above the water is pulling the water towards it. After it all melts, the water level might actually decrease at the poles, and it will rise more near the equator. This is explained here: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/melting-polar-ice-will-spike-sea-levels-at-the-equator-24739579/

A lot of times, when you think through a problem and do the math, you find a result that is counter-intuitive. This is common in science, because your intuition is formed by things falling in a very narrow range of the available parameter space.

Rew says

How is nothing but incompetence better than Hillary?

You said it perfectly.

Lashkar_i_Trumpi says

Nuclear Power first, then electric cars

I believe that Nuclear would have some of the same storage issues as solar/wind. It's even less capable of shutdown/startup operations than coal. I agree, though, from a global warming perspective, it's very good.

Peter P says

it will be Battle Royale. Will large interest groups agree to proposals

I agree that various groups will have tremendous interest in being favored. We've seen the politicians pervert the scientific information already with corn ethanol. Of course this applies to other issues beyond the environment. I hope that some solutions are found despite the inefficiencies in applying scientific knowledge politically. First, we have to get people to agree on the nature of the problem. Otherwise, there is no hope of a solution.

www.youtube.com/embed/OgIMJcBpqKI

jazz music says

You all have got to start seeing patterns here with the realities peeking out from behind the curtains.

The sonofabitches even want to argue about global warming again and DEREGULATE EVERY FUCKING DESTRUCTIVE INDUSTRY there is: Wall Street too! Sure the numbers will look great just like a jet plane goes real fast while it's in a nose-dive.

What will it take for people to stand up?????

You were up in arms even when Obama was President. People don't believe the crap you spew.
You just want to turn the US into a Venezuela, because you can't differentiate the difference between good and bad.

Wanna go? I'll get us Make America Great swag, YouTube income will be colossal , provided we survive

There is a reality to why Patrick Henry said "give me liberty or give me death". Because when you give up liberty, freedom of speech, rule of law, fraternity, you get an increase in Pcomm.

Frankly, those assholes in Venezuela have it coming to them. You ever hear them talk about ordinary Venezuelans? It's like Spaniards talking about their Black and Indian Slaves, in fact, it IS the Spaniards talking about Black and Indian Slaves.

They packed their Oil Monopoly with generations of nepotists, doing nothing, not showing up to work, making 1st world salaries for a low level job.

I don't agree with Maduro, I don't agree with Marxism, but damn those fucks need a solid beating to rid them of their unearned pride. They act like they're Einstein, O'Higgins, and Pope Jan Pavel 2 all in one, when they would be helpless in rage tears if Negrita called in sick and couldn't make them their sandwich with the eeeewwwwy crust cut off. And clueless as hell, a few years ago the opposition ran a guy who campaigned as a "Friend of Negrita" and talked about his domestic servants. Kinda had the opposite effect.

And those dumb enough to follow Maduro if he's not bluffing and really goes down this rathole, fuck them too.

But I'll tell you what, we should let them murder each other until they're exhausted and ready to talk. We need to stay the hell out.

jazz music says

START OBSESSING ABOUT SOMEBODY ELSE

Why? Nobody else does. How many of those people in the riots are thinking of anyone but themselves? How many people in an Occupy Wall Street camp has anyone other than themselves in mind? Do you really believe people in the utopias of the Netherlands care about anyone but themselves? They like free stuff. It reminds me of my mother's friend Helen Bachman who used to say "hell, no one's ever bought me any ice cream and I'll be darned if I'm going to".

jazz music says

You should be ashamed.

I'm not.

jazz music says

You should be ashamed.

I'm ashamed of ungrateful people like you who cannot see what this great country, the world's greatest country, has done for Americans and the rest of mankind.

Woohoo, the Patrick.net Meetup group got a second member!

Hater says

Does anyone know what the ideal temp and co2 percentage is for human life.

Dan got so triggered by this question that he put me on ignore.

Science is not settled by consensus. It is settled by debate, experiment, and facts.

Hi! Well, talking about the ideal level of CO2 for humans, it's 350ppm. If CO2 level reaches 450ppm, then that's a serious problem.

Damn, it took 287 posts to get a straight answer to a simple question...

Hater says

WobblyMolly says

If CO2 level reaches 450ppm, then that's a serious problem.

What happens?

Peter P says

Car-as-a-service (using self-driving cars) will be much better.

As long as our usage patterns don't increase dramatically due to the lower economic and time costs. Peter P says

VR/AR technology can eliminate the need for many types of travel.

Tons of potential here. But, we really don't know how much this will be accepted as an alternative to travel. At least if we can agree on what the societal costs of global warming are, then the we can either put an economic cost on causing more of it or place a social value on preventing it.

jazz music says

Strategist says

I'm ashamed of ungrateful people like you who cannot see what this great country, the world's greatest country, has done for Americans and the rest of mankind.

Lies lies lies. Why do you think anyone would believe this?

Because they are facts.

BlueSardine says

Damn, it took 287 posts to get a straight answer to a simple question

Unfortunately, it's not a straight answer regardless of how much people crave simplicity. Here's a more detailed but still greatly simplified discussion of where the 450ppm came from: http://sustainabilityadvantage.com/2014/01/07/co2-why-450-ppm-is-dangerous-and-350-ppm-is-safe/

Some people estimated: scientists’ models: we have a 50% chance of stabilizing the average global temperature at a 2°C increase over the pre-industrial period if we keep concentrations of CO2 under 450 ppm.

Do the skeptic / deniers think that Temperature is a function of CO2 concentration?

CO2 traps heat, so the warming (heat per unit time) is a function of CO2 concentration. The equation that described how heat flow relates to temperature is this:
----------------------
Heat / unit time = mass x heat capacity x dT/dt
----------------------
For anybody who hasn't had calculus, dT/dt is time rate of change of temperature. This can be written over a fixed period of time as
Heat / unit time = mass x heat capacity x (T2-T1)/(time 2 - time 1)
Heat / unit time is a function of CO2
You can solve for temperature at a later period of time:
----------------------
T2=T1+Heat/unit time *(time 2 - time 1)/(mass x heat capacity)
----------------------
In other words, the temperature at some time in the future is proportional to the heat trapped per unit time, which is a function of CO2, times the time that goes by. That is why people say that some amount of warming is already locked in based on what we have already polluted.

There are some implications of this:
1) Even if we stopped emitting CO2 today, the earth would continue to warm due to what it already there.
2) T and CO2 are related, so you cannot set the optimum values independently.
3) T is not a direct function of CO2. It is proportional to CO2 times time. Therefore, you cannot specify the CO2 concentration and calculate a T, so if you optimize for T, you cannot simply calculate a concentration of CO2 that matches.
4) What you can do it take a value of CO2 over time and integrate forward to calculate what the T will be.

Obviously, the earth is a complicated system, and the heat per unit time is a function of other things (like solar activity, clouds, and snow cover) as well as CO2. The earth is also not a perfectly mixed object, so the temperature is a function of space as well as time. Also, heat loss through radiation is a function of T as well. HOWEVER, that simple equation gives you a good qualitative picture of the relationship between CO2 and T for small changes in T. For bigger changes in T, the radiation term (cooling) becomes more important, and will prevent runaway warming at some very high temperature long after most if not all humans are dead.

Ironman says

Is that study from the same people that predicted that NYC will be underwater by 2015??

I imagine that the direct answer to you question is no. Why don't you figure it out. Bonus points for comparing how the IPCC report in 2007 did with sea level rises.

The larger answer is that I believe the explanation not only because I trust the authors. It's because it follows basic physics. The only thing left of interest is quantifying the effect.

jazz music says

Less taxes for sure. People are never going to have money to blow again. Any business that depends on people feeling good is fucked.

Better business, never again: people are working too many hours when they can and that is why fast food was booming for a while but not even that now. People are learning how to cook cheap and grow some of their food. Malls closing and the ones still open feature a hell of a lot of cheap shoes in stripped down stores. People buying guns and prepping is a big fad because they feel the shit coming down and the media agitates constantly profiling vaguely distressing events for doom and fear from any number of causes. Fitness spending comes from fear too.

People are hunkered down and feeling surrounded by sharks. Selective enforcement is the only thing that allows them to have freedom to do anything ever.

Financial markets you describe are a perfect set up for the grand market crash.

LOL. You are so entertaining. You should go on a TV show.
The truth is........
There are more jobs.
People are buying homes like crazy
They are buying cars like crazy
People eat out more
They are taking more vacations
They are making more money than ever
Our net worth has never been this high.

Hater says

Not entirely

Do you understand the math that I showed? Do you understand that the effect is not instantaneous, but that the co2 in the air acts over a long time to increase temperature.

jazz music says

This is a hysterical statement in that Hillary Clinton pivoted on TPP without lying to be elected.

Right, it wasn't the "Gold Standard." She came to Jesus just before her campaign kicked off.

Here is are some campaign team emails discussing how much she should distance herself. They're looking for language to make it sound to the hopeful (they name Progressives specifically) as if she clearly repudiated it, while allowing language so she can endorse it after her victory. Which is basically what happened.
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/46936
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/55332

jazz music says

No fly zone? --you are just desperate to fawn over Trump. How embarrassing, there is nothing to most of what you say here, just desperately and blindly worshipping Trump. How can you devote so much of each day to that end?

She didn't just say it once, but over and over and over again.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/25/hillary-clinton-syria-no-fly-zones-russia-us-war

Even though in her speeches to her constituents at Goldman Sachs, she admitted the problems of a No-Fly Zone:
https://theintercept.com/2016/10/10/in-secret-goldman-sachs-speech-hillary-clinton-admitted-no-fly-zone-would-kill-a-lot-of-syrians/

This is the famous report - by Hillary's consultants - of all the bad stuff that was in her speeches. This was composed long before the leaks revealed what she wanted hidden.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3130829-HRC-Paid-Speeches-Flags.html

Remember when Hillary said she'd think about releasing her Speeches? This is why she never did. But thanks to Wikileaks, we know.

I like the Simpson-Bowles endorsements. DO you know what Simpson-Bowles entails?

Hater says

Really?

Yes. Heat is absorbed by the sun. It radiates back from the earth. A portion of that radiation gets to space, and a portion is absorbed by the atmosphere and radiates back.

The net heat is Qnet=Qsun - Qreflected - Qradiation + Qatmosphere, where Qsun is the direct radiation from the sun. Qreflected is the amount reflected or scattered back to space and is a function of cloud cover, snow cover, paved coverage, plant coverage, etc. Qradiation is the blackbody radiation from the earth to space, and is a function that is proportional to Tabs^4 (absolute temperature to the fourth power), and Qatmosphere is the heat that is absorbed and transferred back to earth.

Qsun = 1,368 W/m2 cross sectional area. This is equal to 342 W/m2 of earth surface. Scale this to 100%
According to NASA (https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/EnergyBalance/page6.php), the other values are:
Qradiation=117% from surface + 54% radiated from the atmosphere
Qatmosphere=100%
Qreflected=29%
It's a net balance:
Qnet=Qsun-Qreflected-Qradiation+Qatmosphere
Qnet=100-29-117-54+100

Increasing the CO2 concentration increases the value of Qatmosphere, so Qnet is a function of CO2. Q is heat per unit time, which is what I referred to in my equation.

At steady state (constant average temperature), Qnet = 0, and dT/dt = 0. If you instantly double the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, Qnet becomes positive, and dT/dt also becomes positive. It takes some time for the system to achieve a new equilibrium. The way it does this is that the radiation, which is a function of T to the fourth power increases. However, Qnet increases by the whole amount at time=0. It takes a while for the earth to heat up enough for Qradiation to become equal and Qnet again becomes 0. This change in temperature is the signal that has to be measured. There is a lot of noise created by other factors. But an added level of complication doesn't change the way that Temperature and heat are related through time. That is well understood.

Our net worth has never been this high.

$300B more in the hole in 4Q16, actually, breaking the $8T barrier for the first time.

https://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/international/intinv/intinvnewsrelease.htm