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Where were we? Oh yes, solving gas price inefficiencies. What we need is more refineries. Amazing that we haven’t built one since our population was some 80 million people fewer.
Apparently a lot of oil companies don't want to invest fortunes in new refineries because they know the stuff is running out and they will never pay off the investment! it's called peak oil...
This was originally sent by a retired Coca Cola executive It came from one of his engineer buddies who retired from Halliburton. It’s worth your consideration.
Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but isn't it a bit funny that ex-Halliburton engineers "devised" this chain letter? Hmmmm...
RE: the rest of the letter, I'm dumbfounded. What idiot wrote this crap? Sadly, it comes off sounding like the junkies crying foul to their dealers - "I need my fix, and I don't want to pay for it."
DS,
Not really, it's more directly attributable to the sort of legal liability a company exposes themselves to + government regulation. Older refineries were grandfathered into much lower standards than would be acceptable for a refinery built today.
it's sad that coca-cola executives and halliburton engineers are looked up to in the american public mind as some sort of geniuses... like the old 'virus' chain letters that used to go around saying microsoft had announced the discovery of a new virus etc, or that bill gates would give you money by sending the chain letter on...
I think the soft drink companies and the margarine makers are far more responsible for the decline of this country's health than McDonald
Older refineries were grandfathered into much lower standards than would be acceptable for a refinery built today.
hmm, could be, i spose... i always believe the last thing i read somewhere... when did you become a refinery expert?
Robt. and others,
It will be very very interesting to see the effect on the housing bubble. As has been discussed before, materials costs for new construction will be increased, and home heating and cooling (despite the West's current weather pattern) will be more expensive. Also, whether or not there really is an impact of exurban development on fuel consumption, the psychological impact of higher fuel prices will almost certainly put a damper on demand for that type of lifestyle.
newsfreak,
Yup, new windows are efficient and much nicer than what was available 20 years ago. That really came through with my parents' rental experience. It's amazing how little things like replacing old appliances, proper insulation, ceiling fans, etc, can add up.
It sucks that natural gas for home heating is so expensive, since it's such an efficient use of natural gas.
Environmentalists are just as bad at math as any other random group of Americans. The Hollywood types who drive a Prius but live in 10,000 sq ft homes never cease to amaze me.
Robert Coté Says:
Additionally revealed preference would tend to have people “hunkering down†in the exurbs with gardens and compost piles and solar panels and hybrids rather than “huddling†in the cenurbs riding transit.
Now that would be a sight to see - seas of crappy McMansions with retrofitted solar panels, compost piles, and SUV-hybrids in the driveways.
"Perverse outcomes because of zealotry. Who’d a’thunk?"
That doesn't mean the "free market" alternative is better. Look what hard rock mining has done to whole towns in Montana and West Virginia.
newsfreak,
I'd say first look at where you can cut energy use efficiently (changes with quick payback periods), then look into living off the grid.
That wasn't intended as a suggestion of everything you need to do, more a priority thing. I was saying, always look at any energy efficiency improvement with the payback period in mind.
Robert Cote,
That's certainly something we can agree on. More local goods all around.
I think it'll mostly be brick and mortar stores that suffer. Direct delivery services will be much more competitive price wise, especially for food.
"A wind farm in in Aus has been stymied because a couple of endangered parrots may be killed by the blades."
Yeah, I tend to think I'm not all that smart or capable. Then I look around and see the idiotic things "experts" do and wonder.
newsfreak,
I think we'll soon get to a point when we don't have a choice about nuclear power, and the only question is how much oversight and safeguards we're able to add into the system.
Alternative fuels are largely pies in the sky and tax incentives are market distorting. I'd give government funding for research, but tax incentives just lead in ineffective market allocation.
newsfreak,
That's what NIMBYism is all about.
Robert Cote,
Like it or not public utilities are a public good. I'd personally spend more time bitching about phone and cellphone tax and fees.
I'm also weird.
I would have no problem with living next to a nuclear power station if it was properly overseen. If that miniscule chance of death comes, then I'm dead. My life is not so precious to the overall society that it must do everything possible to preserve my life at the cost of other people's lives. I take a risk when I drive. I take a risk when I chose to live in an earthquake zone. -- those are selfish ventures. I am willing to do it for the public good, too.
If local generators are more efficient and still able to handle the needs of its recipients, then it's time to smooth the way for them.
If solar/wind generation is efficient use of available resources, I don't see why you need to be tax dollar subsidized into action.
Can you break down that number? Do you mean 69% of the raw chemical energy or 69% of the AC currents flowing out of electric plants?
I'm actually not really against subsidies, as long as there's math that support a market inefficiency that needs to be correct by government actions.
Solar power and the equipment to produce is gets better all the time. I was working at a contractor supply 3 years ago. We sold Solar powered attic fans. One of them fell off the truck and the casing cracked. They gave it to me and I took the solar panel out. It put out almost 40 watts and 32 volts of DC current. That's a lot more than cells of just 10 years ago. It was also only about 16" across. My housemate at the time worked as a custom solar power installer. He had a few panels laying arounf the house and with them we had planned on wiring them into a series, running them to several deep cycle marine batteries, running these through a 12 volt-120 volt inverter, and power our computers and flourescent lights. The batteries were very costly, and then I was fairly poor, so we never did it. But to the average middle class person, this setup is easy and straightforward. It would take years to compensate for the cost of the materials, but it's amazing that these materials exsist and are readily available. Perhaps in 5 more years it will be even more affordable and practical. If I ever have my own place, I would love to power at least the minor appliances via alternative sources.
nomadtoons, that sounds fine to me. I still don't see any need for federal subsidies to the consumers.
From my understanding, Ethanol is fairly inefficient as a fuel as it's burn rate is 25% less than gasoline. There are many factors that indicate that there isn't enough land to produce the "fuel", but the alternative method for now is mixing ethanol with pretroleum. Even if the mixture were say 25% ethanol, 75% gasoline, the effect would be sunstantial in terms of fuel prices. Perhaps in the intervening time, other forms of biochemical proceses, ones that may not require land to produce it may come to light. Hard to tell.
"Nevermind Bush, Cheney, etc. are from the OLD OIL SCHOOL.
Solar has been around a long time, but oil interests did not want it, just as the car industry did not want high mileage cars."
That's why I wanted $6/gallon gas, to reflect the environmental and infrastructure costs associated with gasoline use. A society can modify behavior either through taxation or subsidy. With subsidies, we're dealing with an extra layer of bureaucracy compared to taxation, so I'd rather the government doesn't do it unless there's no other way to correct for the existing negative externalities.
nomadtoons2,
How does ethanol look after taking away all government subsidies for corn and ethanol?
given that the thread is called 'i don't know what to think', i think i'm pulling above weight on being on topic, heh...
Robert Cote,
Then the 69% loss isn't all that bad. Even natural gas furnaces can't capture anywhere near 100% of the chemical energy contained in natural gas.
nomadtoons2,
I just read the question and realized it sounded accusatory, which was not my intention. I'm just curious about how renewable the practice of generating ethanol actually is, and was hoping you knew.
these guys ran an 80 year old car on 100% ethanol for 1000s of km to prove a point.
"The actual engine conversion from petrol to ethanol, done by local automotive engineer, Syd Norman, proved to be ridiculously simple – put bigger jets in the carburettor, play around with the timing and add an upper cylinder lubricant, that's it!"
http://carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/car-news/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabID=500648&ArticleID=7907&R=ce7907
Atrid,
Perhaps if Ethanol became a major product of US agriculture , it wouldn't be as affected by taking away government subsidies. I know for a fact that government subsidies actually pay some farmers NOT to produce anything, and yet still more goes to farmers as insurance over market fluctuations in a given product. Corn will grow just about anywhere. The need and market rate would be reliable. In essence, corn could become a market asset similiar to the way fuel is traded now, placing it in a totally new category.
I'm also all about hydrogen technology, but since the production methods at this point still rely on some form of petroleum, perhaps it isn't ideal for now until a non pretoleum method that is as cost effective as natural gas is developed.
i think the anti-ethanol thing is a confusion with methanol, which can do damage. i guess once the mechanics working for all the big car companies heard it was dangerous as a rumour, they probably told their customers at service time and talked about voiding warranties, and so it spread...
for climactic reasons, the US is limited to corn and grain distilled ethanol, australia has sugar cane in the tropics which is pretty high yield...
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Ok, so a friend I've know since grade school forwarded me this jibber jabber bull$hit email. At first read it is just pure crap, but as I read on I realized that this embodies current Amerika; I believe this thinking to be the origins of the real estate bubble.
We deserve it. It being many things. We as Amerikans deserve cheap gas, big massive asses and cars, and the ability to borrow Chuck, borrow.
Let it rip.
Trolls need not apply.
Copyright Surfer-X
All rights reserved, all wrongs denied.
"GAS WAR - an idea that WILL work
This was originally sent by a retired Coca Cola executive It came from one of his engineer buddies who retired from Halliburton. It's worth your consideration.
Join the resistance!!!! I hear we are going to hit close to $ 4.00 a gallon by next summer and it might go higher!! Want gasoline prices to come down? We need to take some intelligent, united action. Phillip Hollsworth offered this good idea. This makes MUCH MORE SENSE than the "don't buy gas on a certain day" campaign that was going around last April or May!
The oil companies just laughed at that because they knew we wouldn't continue to "hurt" ourselves by refusing to buy gas. It was more of an inconvenience to us than it was a problem for them. BUT, whoever thought of this idea, has come up with a plan that can really work. Please read on and join with us!
By now you're probably thinking gasoline priced at about $1.50 is super cheap. Me too! It is currently $2.79 for regular unleaded in my town. Now that the oil companies and the OPEC nations have conditioned us to think that the cost of a gallon of gas is CHEAP at $1.50 - $1.75, we need to take aggressive action to teach them that BUYERS control the marketplace..not sellers With the price of gasoline going up more each day, we consumers need to take action. The only way we are going to see the price of gas come down is if we hit someone in the pocketbook by not purchasing their gas! And, we can do that WITHOUT hurting ourselves.
How?
Since we all rely on our cars, we can't just stop buying gas. But we CAN have an impact on gas prices if we all act together to force a price war.
Here's the idea: For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the two biggest companies (which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL. If they are not selling any gas, they will be inclined to reduce their prices. If they reduce their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit. But to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of Exxon and Mobil gas buyers. It's really simple to do! Now, don't wimp out on me at this point...keep reading and I'll explain how simple it is to reach millions of people!!
I am sending this note to 30 people. If each of us send it to at least ten more (30 x 10 = 300) ... and those 300 send it to at least ten more (300 x 10 = 3,000)..and so on, by the time the message reaches the sixth group of people, we will have reached over THREE MILLION consumers. If those three million get excited and pass this on to ten friends each, then 30 million people will have been contacted! If it goes one level further, you guessed it..... THREE HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE!!!
Again, all you have to do is send this to 10 people. That's all! (If you don't understand how we can reach 300 million and all you have to do is send this to 10 people.... Well, let's face it, you just aren't a mathematician. But I am . so trust me on this one.) :-)
How long would all that take? If each of us sends this e-mail out to ten more people within one day of receipt, all 300 MILLION people could conceivably be contacted within the next 8 days!!! I'll bet you didn't think you and I had that much potential, did you! Acting together we can make a difference.
If this makes sense to you, please pass this message on. I suggest that we not buy from EXXON/MOBIL UNTIL THEY LOWER THEIR PRICES TO THE $1.30 RANGE AND KEEP THEM DOWN. THIS CAN REALLY WORK"
#housing