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HARM to Peter P and Randy H: I find your lack of faith disturbing.


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2006 Jun 4, 7:50pm   16,817 views  238 comments

by HARM   ➕follow (0)   💰tip   ignore  

Darth Bubblehead

Seriously, guys, just when public psychology and the market is finally starting to turn to such an extent that --even the brain-dead, NAR-bought MSM has to acknowledge it-- NOW you guys have decided to puss out and capitulate??

Yes, the recent uptick in asking rents since March is significant (and as Surfer-X continues to point out, that's ASKING rents, not ACCEPTED rents, boys). Even so, didn't Mr. H himself predict this very phenomenon several threads ago, when he (accurately) applied the "escalation of commitment" theory to increasingly desperate FBs? Aren't the many testimonials by renters in the previous thread (while not statisticially significant) evidence enough that landlords have not repealed the law of Supply and Demand and can dictate rents at will? Not only that, but we've only just begun to see the barest start of apartment-to-condo conversions that are slowly reverting back to apartments. This alone will help flood the rental market with new inventory, right as Joe Homedebtor begins to give up on the concept of house = sure-fire investment.

As John Haverty FRIFY, To BA Or Not To BA and countless others have pointed out, there is just not going to be much in the way of real rent inflation UNLESS WAGES ALSO GO UP. This is for a very good reason: you cannot pay your rent with an NAAVLP. And what's more, rent-to-income ratios for most major metro areas of California are already hugely above the median/mean for practically every other state. It's already not unusual for CA working class households (or what's left of the middle class) to pay over 50% of take-home pay on rent. Exactly how much more can people possibly devote to rent --are they going to pay 90%? How about 100%? If this is true, I think I'm going to invest in the companies that make Ramen Noodles and peanut butter, becuase that's all people are going to be able to afford to eat after paying the rent. Or better yet, I'm going to heavily invest in housing OUTSIDE California --because that's where people will be headed in droves if this really comes to pass.

Peter P, tsk, tsk, tsk... Aren't you the guy who Face Reality used to call "Darth Bubblehead"? For shame.

Look, I'll be the first to admit that in my early phases of Bubble investigation, I was far from certain, and that I've experienced occasional bouts of self doubt. We all do, and it's really quite natural for sane people (only megalomaniacs, zealots and idiots lack the capacity for self doubt). Even so, I would recommend taking a moment to set aside all your complicated NPV/cash-flow discount models for a minute and reconsider the current situation in terms of old-fashioned COMMON SENSE. There is such a thing as being "too smart by half" and missing the forest for the trees, my overeducated gentlemen!

Now, suppose the perma-bulls' ultimate wet-dream "soft landing" scenario actually happens: price/rent correction ENTIRELY through wage & non-housing inflation. So what?? We all just got a 100-200% pay raise, boys --woo-hoo! And now we can all afford to buy a decent home for our families without taking out an insanely toxic loan. Is this an outcome I'm supposed to be afraid of? Hardly.

Personally, I don't care whether prices correct entirely through wage inflation (while nominal RE prices stay flat) or through big, nominal price drops --or some combination of the two. Either way, I win. I get the opportunity to purchase a depreciated asset tomorrow at a much lower real cost.

Have a little faith, gentlemen. The housing market moves excruciatingly, glacially slowly --but move it will.

#housing

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125   Randy H   2006 Jun 5, 10:58am  

Peter P

If I am to buy a house today, I will be extremely happy to recover the inflation-adjusted original purchase price in 7 years.

That's because you're ignoring the other holding costs to owning. Those are the alternate uses of money. So long as what you would Rent is less than PITI of what you would buy, you have something left over. I assume that you're not just pissing that away (a big assumption, as most people actually need something like a mortgage payment to force the to save in the form of home equity). So, there is a cost to what you'd do with that extra money, like put it in the market at the risk-free rate.

I use the halfway point between the expected long-term market return (around 7.2% if I recall...I'm on a different cptr now) and the risk-free rate. The problem is that this investment compounds, and grows pretty quickly, forcing a home you buy to also appreciate or else you're doing worse by buying. This is another reason rising rents is non-linear. For each dollar rent goes up, you lose the present value of a dollar invested less than PITI. Since that compounds over your expected holding period, it's more than $1.

126   StuckInBA   2006 Jun 5, 10:59am  

This has been discussed, and we are again hitting the core issue. It's not just about various ratios and metrics. It's about sound financial planning.

If I pay a huge portion of my income towards mortgage interest, how will I save for my retirement, my kids' education ? Hoping that the house will pay for all the future needs is putting all your eggs in one basket. It may work, who knows, but is extremely risky.

That's what makes me laugh about Cupertino. People are willing to take so much loan just to put their kids in the public schools there. When their kids need the money for their college, what happens then ? It is really ironic.

127   Randy H   2006 Jun 5, 11:04am  

FRIFY,

I know a lot of folks who got only $250Kish out of the dot-com lottery, yet they were very smart with those "winnings" and they are financially very solvent today. These are inevitably the folks who always exercised at every opportunity, and took their gains at that point, regardless of how exuberant people were about potential upside, and paid their AMT correctly. I know one guy who tried to ride the wave, and turned about $1.8M he could have exercised into about $50K, and then he screwed up his AMT trying to turbotax it and ended up losing net.

128   Randy H   2006 Jun 5, 11:05am  

...note the "loser" above had AMT because of options he exercised and held, I should have mentioned that for the tax-astute here.

129   Peter P   2006 Jun 5, 11:09am  

assume that you’re not just pissing that away (a big assumption, as most people actually need something like a mortgage payment to force the to save in the form of home equity).

I may fall into that category. ;) Sushi. Food.

130   Peter P   2006 Jun 5, 11:15am  

If I pay a huge portion of my income towards mortgage interest, how will I save for my retirement, my kids’ education ? Hoping that the house will pay for all the future needs is putting all your eggs in one basket. It may work, who knows, but is extremely risky.

One thing though, if you buy a house with better feng shui and/or positive energy, you will make more money and your retirement will be set anyway.

NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE

131   Michael Holliday   2006 Jun 5, 11:48am  

LILLL Says:

I look around and suddenly I’m in my 40s...

Exactly...I'm heading toward 40. God almighty!

Help! Mr. Wizard, help!

132   Randy H   2006 Jun 5, 11:48am  

If I pay a huge portion of my income towards mortgage interest, how will I save for my retirement, my kids’ education ?

You don't at first, and if you keep refi'ing and re-amortizing* or HELOCing then you won't either. But if you do it like your parents did, then you essentially have a savings account that slowly gets bigger infusions each month, and historically meets or beats inflation over the term.

*note, you can refi and not re-amortize so long as you do it right.

133   StuckInBA   2006 Jun 5, 11:56am  

Peter P says:

One thing though, if you buy a house with better feng shui and/or positive energy, you will make more money and your retirement will be set anyway.

I don't know you, so I am just trying to understand. Do you mean it, or is this a tongue-in-cheek comment ?

134   Peter P   2006 Jun 5, 11:57am  

Exactly…I’m heading toward 40. God almighty!

Worse... I am approaching my first Saturn Return. Astrologically, I have such an urge to buy a house.

135   Peter P   2006 Jun 5, 12:07pm  

I don’t know you, so I am just trying to understand. Do you mean it, or is this a tongue-in-cheek comment ?

You can take it either way. I am open to alternative science, but I do not expect people to accept it as is.

136   Peter P   2006 Jun 5, 12:08pm  

craigslist search = 404

Huh? 404 Not Found (HTTP code)?

137   Peter P   2006 Jun 5, 12:12pm  

This spring is silent
The tide is turning
Going into Thanksgiving
What will happen?

138   Peter P   2006 Jun 5, 12:16pm  

What data source is used to generate the rent graph on the front page of patrick.net ?

I think it uses online sources like craigslist but I am not sure. Perhaps you should ask Patrick.

139   Peter P   2006 Jun 5, 12:31pm  

Thanksgiving, what will happen ?

My guess:

Inventory will continue to build
Short term interest rate will be 50 - 75 basis point higher
30YR fixed rate will be around 7%
Psychology will be different
Attitude will be about the same

NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE

140   Different Sean   2006 Jun 5, 12:48pm  

HARM, If you think we’re “out there” what about the guy in China that’s getting the word out for people not to buy a house for another 3 years!

i say the only question is whether the realtors or the landlords should be the first against the wall come the Glorious Revolution... :twisted:

how's that for 'out there'? :mrgreen:

141   saurin13   2006 Jun 5, 1:11pm  

Returning to BA,

I agree with you. My wife and I make close to $180k and we are just out grad school as well. We are new here from TX and we just cannot understand how ppl with our incomes cannot afford a place. I asked a mortgage lender at WellsFargo about this. He said that many people that are buying bought houses earlier. Well who are they selling to? Others that bought early as well? This does not make any sense. We want to purchase a place but since we just graduated a year ago, we would be forced to pay I/O just to get a 3/2.5 place in a decent suburb - and that would stretch our budget. This is very perplexing for me.

Also if rates increase and prices (nominal) stay flat, even with saving up for down payment we are no better off tomorrow than if we were to buy today except that we have more skin in the game (hence more risk), which means that it is still getting more expensive tomorrow. Prices have to drop in real terms, but when will this happen 5 yrs? 10 yrs? Do we have to wait that long just to own even though we make significantly more than the median income?

142   saurin13   2006 Jun 5, 1:18pm  

one more thing. my wife and I really want to buy too - why? well partly its because of the pride and sense of achievement. Yes we are renting from the bank and taking on the asset risk, we know that - but there is a value to the emotional satisfaction -- especially those around you, friends and family, own homes. One side of me says that there must be a reversion to the mean - and that could be true on a macro level, but not on an individual house level.

Its something that is quite draining to have worked so hard and gotten good jobs and still not be able to afford a place that is not 50 yrs old POS.

143   saurin13   2006 Jun 5, 2:24pm  

Well one reason is that existing homebuyers tend to protect their homes through legislation. How is it that Shanghai and Beijing and Singapore look so incredible and they don't mind tearing down POS houses to build better ones, yet in the BA existing homeowners pass laws to ensure that everyone has a POS just like them.

144   Randy H   2006 Jun 5, 2:26pm  

HARM,

Wonderin' is MP or a close resemblance thereof. I've been editing and deleting his trolls from my last thread for the past few days. He posted the same message above to my last thread, which I've edited, so you can safely delete this one if you see fit.

--Randy H

145   HARM   2006 Jun 5, 2:28pm  

Wonderinandwaitin,

Wow, thanks for that STATISTICALLY REPRESENTATIVE sample you've provided for the entire Bay Area! You've completely changed my outlook on this whole Bubble thing. How can there be a bubble if some clueless asshole paid way too much for a 3/2 condo sitting on Marina landfill? We've clearly achieved a New Paradigm.

You are truly an amazingly persuasive individual! Now, pat yourself on the back, turn off your mom's computer, and go wack off in your room like a good little Troll.

146   Randy H   2006 Jun 5, 2:35pm  

b) rentals in NYC are cheap because of rent stabilization though I don’t know how it affects the housing prices (infact rent stabilization would keep house prices lower).

I don't know if the BA could ever mimic Manhattan that closely for the reasons given by others. There could be many similarities, especially comparing SF to Manhattan and the greater BA to all of NYC and commutable suburbs.

As to rent controls, they have very unexpected effects on the economics of a market. For one, they tend to cause homes to increase dramatically in price, despite the obvious counter-intuitiveness to this. I forget the microecon reasons as to why, but I do recall that rent controlled areas suffer higher home prices empirically. One of our resident income property managers could probably tell you more about really why it happens. Rent control also creates a whole other set of problems and causes really unpleasant behaviors to emerge as people figure out how to game the system.

147   Randy H   2006 Jun 5, 2:35pm  

You are truly an amazingly persuasive individual! Now, pat yourself on the back, turn off your mom’s computer, and go wack off in your room like a good little Troll.

X, is that you?

148   HARM   2006 Jun 5, 2:37pm  

@Randy H,

I read your notes on "Wonderin'" after posting mine. I really liked your little postscipt to his nearly identical post on your charts 'n graphs thread. Methinks I shall unleash a can o' Troll B-Gone on this fuckknob.

149   HARM   2006 Jun 5, 2:44pm  

X, is that you?

No, it's just little ole' me. I guess that DID sound very Surfer-esque, didn't it? Why, I'm flattered by the comparison. 8-)

150   StuckInBA   2006 Jun 5, 2:53pm  

I don't know about Bay Area becoming like NYC. But BA is an expensive place to live, and I don't see that changing. I like this area, and it certainly deserves a premium. The question is how much. Answer whatever people are willing to pay.

That will not stop the BA RE market from going up and down, up and down forever. Even in the most bullish scenario, I do not see any appreciation - even nominal - happening in BA for a long time to come - like 10 years. there is no hurry to buy. In the most bearish scenario, I can easily see far away places like Tracy dropping 50%, and core areas like Cupertino dropping 25%.

I will change my view if I see wage inflation.

151   lex   2006 Jun 5, 2:57pm  

Prop 13 helps keep the rents low.
I'm renting a smal TH that my landlord bought a zillion years ago and pays some ridiculously low tax on it. My rent is pretty low and I have a nice feeling that I'm getting my share of Prop 13 protection. For me it's another reason to rent.

152   StuckInBA   2006 Jun 5, 3:03pm  

John Haverty,

Maybe I did not express myself clearly. I do not have any debt. I abhor it. I actually dislike debt more than I should. As Randy has pointed out numerous times, debt can be used to advantage in an inflationary scenario.

I was only pointing out the perils of servicing a huge debt. It comes at the cost of your retirement savings etc. People treat their home as an investment vehicle to their retirement, college and what not. That is akin to putting all your eggs in one basket.

153   Randy H   2006 Jun 5, 3:25pm  

JH,

You can always engineer your own amortization schedule if you have a fixed-rate simple interest mortgage with no prepayment penalty.

You just pay an extra amount to every payment (that will apply directly to principal) which preserves your amortization schedule, by reducing your number of total required payments.

You can use Excel or a financial calculator to figure the amount you should pay (as opposed to what your payment stub says).

If you want to prove this to yourself, go into Excel and blow all your payments out in rows for Loan A. Then copy a Loan B next to it, and change the length from say 30 to 29 years, but keep the interest rate the same. You'll see the INT and PRIN amounts in Loan B work out to an extension of Loan A, only ending in year 29, at which point you're paid off.

Or, you can just tell your bank that this is what you want to do and they very well may give you a 29 year loan. I've done this once (got a 22 year loan), but that was a while ago.

By the same mechanism, you can get a 30-year loan but turn it into a 15 year loan with a free payment option of 15 extra years of "buffer" at no cost (and ignoring the interest rate difference, of course, which is why they give you a lower rate on a 15 year, to keep you from arbitraging them in this way, but often the rate difference still aren't enough to compensate for the value of this free "option").

In fact, all US-style mortgages that are fixed, simple, have a built in free option because you can pre-pay.

154   Peter P   2006 Jun 5, 3:39pm  

You can always engineer your own amortization schedule if you have a fixed-rate simple interest mortgage with no prepayment penalty.

I may stir up some fur here but I think interest only loan with a reasonable rate-lock period is a pretty good instrument to engineer such custom amortization table. One can even "amortize" into a liquid account for more flexibility or potentially higher return.

A lower monthly obligation can actually reduce risks in the hands of a responsible homedebtor.

NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE

155   Randy H   2006 Jun 5, 3:42pm  

JH,

Inflation is not 1:1 linked to nominal rates in the US. In fact, nominal rates very often diverge from real rates given inflation in the US because of a bunch of stuff no one wants to read about.

It is not at all common to find opportunities to "personally arbitrage" low rate, fixed loans at greater than the risk-free rate of return if one is properly financially positioned. Rich people do this all the time, even Mr. Buffet.

Everyday people do it all the time too, with low rate student loans. Why pay off a 2.5% loan early when you can get 4.0% on a long CD? Sure, if rates fall to 1.0% on CDs, you should think about paying that loan down, but normally, you should not.

As to all the core inflation stuff, I understand your point about "not wishing for inflation". I certainly don't. I'd give up all my opportunities to exploit debt for the promise of no "extra" inflation in the future. But the fact is inflation is an EXTERNAL force on all of us, while debt leverage is an INTERNAL decision. Since I cannot control inflation, I'll pay $4.00, $5.00, $6.00 for gas regardless of what I do with debt. If the Fed forces nominal rates down, then I am damned well going to take advantage of that where I can, because that's all I can control.

156   Randy H   2006 Jun 5, 3:44pm  

I was thinking I go, switch banks and re-fi and not get the amortization reset.

BofA did this for me once some years ago. I got a Wells Fargo refi offer and went to BofA and got them to match the rate but give me a 22 year loan.

It doesn't hurt to ask.

157   Randy H   2006 Jun 5, 3:49pm  

Peter P,

I may stir up some fur here but I think interest only loan with a reasonable rate-lock period is a pretty good instrument to engineer such custom amortization table.

You are technically correct; but the only guy I know who did this and I would personally qualify as "knowing what he's doing" was a bond trader who works at Pimco.

For mortal men, it is not advisable. I think you have to match durations, which gets into all kinds of bond math and forward rate kind of junk. But, if you're up to the task, you can gain advantage from IO loans.

Again, lots of rich folks' have wealth managers to engineer such instruments for them, even though they have the cash to just buy stuff outright. Why buy stuff with your money when the bank will pay you to buy it with theirs? (The answer to that rhetorical is sadly because the Fed is paying the bank to pay the rich guys to pay the wealth managers, and who pays the Fed? Mr. Everyday does with inflation.)

158   Peter P   2006 Jun 5, 5:12pm  

But a Corolla is a bit light and small...

Fuel efficiency is overrated. Gas is so cheap in America that it does not matter anyway. We should be more concerned about safety (among big SUVs).

159   Peter P   2006 Jun 5, 5:13pm  

Maybe I should stop looking and just be happy with my jeep.

How about the Toyota FJ Crusier? It looks very nice in blue.

160   Peter P   2006 Jun 5, 5:20pm  

I like drum brakes, they last longer.

Huh? I just need the safest possible equipment.

161   Mike/a.k.a.Sage   2006 Jun 5, 5:30pm  

The article by A. Gary Shilling in Forbes.com on 666 entitled, Implosion.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2006/0619/168_print.html

You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!

The price correction in real estate will make your head spin.

162   Peter P   2006 Jun 5, 5:37pm  

I need better mpg and a little more space….Basically a small wagon will do just fine.

How about a subaru?

163   Peter P   2006 Jun 5, 5:38pm  

Happy 06/06/06. Good night!

164   Different Sean   2006 Jun 5, 11:04pm  

06/06/06? keep a close eye on george bush.... especially see if his eyes start glowing or changing to black or similar... ditto for wolfy, cheney, ricey, rummy, rovey, mclellan, ... one of them's gotta be the anti-christ...

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