patrick.net

I don’t get it. The solution to outsourcing is to import more low paying workers, thus straining our government resources further and risk destablizing society at large? ... Is it better to lower that living standard to the point where the US become as messed up and dysfunctional as the countries these people came from? Or to try to restrict the source, perhaps provide some aid and encouragement so that their country become less messed up and more functioning?

The fact is, that 12 million undocumented immigrants are already here. Because of our overly restrictive policy of *legal* immigration, we have created a huge black market, which doesn't do much good for anyone. What I am suggesting is that (1) assimilated immigrants are good for the US; and (2) if we expect people to assimilate, then we need to make it possible for them to do so legally. Don't complain about people failing to learn english when they could be fired, arrested or deported at any moment!

Perhaps we should offer citizenship to 500,000 or 1 million people per year--I don't know what the number is. All I'm saying is that the status quo is not working and the direction of change should be in favor of more liberalized legal immigration, not harsher enforcement of existing, unrealistic quotas.

As for providing aid to poor countries... sounds like another well-intentioned waste of taxpayer dollars. If we really want to help people in poor countries, then we should just let them compete with us freely. You should check out Oxfam's website to see how the diversion of US tax dollars to agribusiness has caused enormous suffering in poor countries by making agriculture infeasible in those countries. That's right, our government gives your tax dollars to US sugar and corn growers, which leads to artificially low prices for domestically grown sugar and corn, which means the US doesn't import these products, which means farmers in poor countries can't export these products. But this won't stop because the lobbyists have paid off the politicians and very few voters are looking at the big picture.

A lot of immigrants today just treat America as a place to make money and get some benefits, without truly merging into the American society at large.

that charge has been leveled at every immigrant group in our country’s history.

yeah, those nasty irish coming out post 1850 because of the potato famine and the california gold rush... and the scottish refugees after the enclosure of the highlands by landlords... they happen to have determined about 90% of the current american accent and culture. of course, land was for the taking back then, you only had to dispossess a few indigenous people and put them onto reservations, and do monetary deals with france and spain for vast lands under the veiled threat of war...

I agree that in a perfect world, every human being would start their life on an equal playing field, be given an education that maximizes his or her potential, and be compensated according to his or her merit. But we’re not there yet. We’re not even capable of doing so in the US.

Yes --charity begins at home.

In the meantime, we’ve created a higher living standard in the US. Is it better to lower that living standard to the point where the US become as messed up and dysfunctional as the countries these people came from? Or to try to restrict the source, perhaps provide some aid and encouragement so that their country become less messed up and more functioning?

No kidding. I'm tired of seeing MY standard of living become a casualty of "Operation Release Valve" for corruption & overpopulation-induced Third World poverty.

astrid Says:
I’m against market distortions in all its forms and I want people to pay the fair and total cost of any goods and services they receive. In my opinion, guest workers are a highly disruptive market distortion that subsidize the users of the cheap laborers while penalizing everybody else.

and where did you get that piece of neoclassical economics dogma from? serve the market at all costs, and define 'distortion' anyway you want, so long as you come out on top.

'market distortion' is just a theoretical piece of bollocks designed to benefit the mercantile class, no one else. Even most innocently, it's just represents a case at the failed 'scientisation' of economics, but it's been co-opted by right wing think tanks and right wing economics professors everywhere to push an agenda.

nothing to do with the migrant labour question, i just object to the attempted 'theorification of everything'...

Glen,

In general, I'm all for ending market distorting behavior. But I think that since giving up the status quo (America's good life) is not an acceptable solution, doing things to make the US less appealing for illegal immigrants is better than have them flood this country and overwhelm our living standard.

I don't see how a policing action (preventing the mass influx of law breakers or saying no to guest workers) is necessarily equivalent to government subsidies or like market distortions.

Glen,

Based on your last post, I believe our positions on immigration (and government subsidies/social engineering) are not that far apart after all. We may be arguing past one another.

I agree that in a perfect world, every human being would start their life on an equal playing field, be given an education that maximizes his or her potential, and be compensated according to his or her merit.

That's only one view of a 'perfect world'. See John Rawls 'original position' and 'justice as fairness'...

of course, it's a very teleological proposal...

Justice as Fairness

Harvard philosopher John Rawls (1921-2002 ) developed a conception of justice as fairness in his now classic work A Theory of Justice . Using elements of both Kantian and utilitarian philosophy, he has described a method for the moral evaluation of social and political institutions.

Imagine that you have set for yourself the task of developing a totally new social contract for today's society. How could you do so fairly? Although you could never actually eliminate all of your personal biases and prejudices, you would need to take steps at least to minimize them. Rawls suggests that you imagine yourself in an original position behind a veil of ignorance . Behind this veil, you know nothing of yourself and your natural abilities, or your position in society. You know nothing of your sex, race, nationality, or individual tastes. Behind such a veil of ignorance all individuals are simply specified as rational, free, and morally equal beings. You do know that in the "real world", however, there will be a wide variety in the natural distribution of natural assets and abilities, and that there will be differences of sex, race, and culture that will distinguish groups of people from each other.

In this original position , behind the veil of ignorance, what will the rational choice be for fundamental principles of society? The only safe principles will be fair principles, for you do not know whether you would suffer or benefit from the structure of any biased institutions. Indeed the safest principles will provide for the highest minimum standards of justice in the projected society.

To use a more mundane illustration, imagine that you had the task of determining how to divide a cake fairly among a group of individuals. What rule or method should govern the cutting? A simple one would be to let the person who does the cutting receive the last piece. This would lead that person to cut all pieces as equally as possible in order to receive the best remaining share. (Of course if the pieces were cut unequally, someone would get the largest share, but if you are the cutter, you can hardly rely on that piece being left over at the end.)

Speaking of recent Chinese illegal immigrants. Sorry, you don’t know what you’re talking about. There’s been a huge influx of Fujianese migrants into New York (and maybe elsewhere) since the late 1980s and it completely destroyed the preexisting dynamic of the New York Chinese community. Huge amount of violence, bad social habits, poorly prepared students at school, gang activity, clannish behavior, massively depressed wages…you name it. The people moved in signed huge debt contracts with their smugglers, were kept in virtual slavery for years working off their debt.

Gangsters, criminals, loan sharks and slave traders should be prosecuted and/or deported. Nothing in my earlier posts was intended to suggest otherwise. As for "bad social habits" and "poorly prepared students at school" how is this different from the rest of the US population? Seriously, though, most first generation immigrants are a little rough around the edges. Most of their kids, at a minimum, will learn english and have the ability to hold down some kind of a normal job.

In any case, one of the reasons I advocate a more liberalized immigration policy is so that we can do something about the very problems of exploitation which you have cited.

randy h said:
This is what kills me when reading a typical FAB “you can get medical ins. for only $56/month” rant.

If you go back through FAB’s comments, you’ll find that this is the same fount of knowledge which declared that public schools in Mill Valley are dangerous because of too many black people, professional women are the enemy of proper families, middle aged men can copulate with over a hundred women while simultaneously declaring that younger women are increasingly sluts, only conservatives have a greater than middle school science education, and that poor folks shouldn’t have babies.

oh, so you noticed as well? FAB's other quantitative analyses leave something to be desired at times as well. When challenged, he's often found to blow out costs by 10x to suit, or just pluck figures from the air. Must be something to do with being a 'former' RE hack -- or born with a silver spoon...

DS,

Sorry. I work largely from a neo-classical framework. I don't really like government involvement except in case of obvious market failure or for communal goods. I do take utility into mind rather than dollars, so I'm nowhere near being a complete market fundamentalist.

Glen,

I'm suggesting recent illegal immigrants are usually not top drawer stuff. They're not the best and brightest of their country, just the most desperate and conveniently connected ones. The smartest people in China and many other developing nations now try to do well at school and get to the US by legal means. Let's work harder to bring those people in.

I don’t see how a policing action (preventing the mass influx of law breakers or saying no to guest workers) is necessarily equivalent to government subsidies or like market distortions.

really, this whole 'market distortion' thing is a nonsense. i decided to suppress a few other observations concerning rightwing ideological brainwashing designed to serve the interests of mercantilists... 'market distortions' as an underlying rationale for social action (or inaction) is a discourse...

DS,
To bring Rawls into the present discussion, imagine that you are going to be plopped down into a random country. But before you are dropped in, you get to unilaterally determine US immigration policy. What kind of system would you adopt for the US? Keep in mind that if you adopt a complete, unrestricted open border, then you are dropped in a bad country, then you elect to immigrate to the US, you will soon be followed by a whole bunch of others (though perhaps not 3-4 billion).

Sorry. I work largely from a neo-classical framework. I don’t really like government involvement except in case of obvious market failure or for communal goods. I do take utility into mind rather than dollars, so I’m nowhere near being a complete market fundamentalist.

yeah, it's called brainwashing and 'scientistic' unreflexive modernism, a failed experiment if ever there was one. every bit as valid as marx's attempts to construct the 'laws of social history'.

oh 'utility', very good, it's not just dollars. human rights don't come into the picture at all, of course, a mere 'externality', my dear, how are my stock options looking today?

I don’t really like government involvement except in case of obvious market failure or for communal goods.

and when does that happen, exactly? all the time? half the time? whenever person A, B or C defines it to happen? there could be more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy...

DS,
To bring Rawls into the present discussion, imagine that you are going to be plopped down into a random country. But before you are dropped in, you get to unilaterally determine US immigration policy. What kind of system would you adopt for the US? Keep in mind that if you adopt a complete, unrestricted open border, then you are dropped in a bad country, then you elect to immigrate to the US, you will soon be followed by a whole bunch of others (though perhaps not 3-4 billion).

yeah, like the irish... nobody wants that...

i'm not even getting into the 'illegal migrant labourer' question, i've always lived in sea-locked countries ;)

obviously the concept of borders and the definition of the 'nation-state' have firmed up in the last century or so...

i'm interested to draw parallels, as have others, of the allowability of historical migration patterns vs present-day ones, and the social change that they have brought about.

but there are very real questions about the 'gatekeeper' role, desirables and undesirables, and so on. australia actually has a lot of undesirables who came in legally, and the problems are really beginning to surface. There are a lot of lessons of attempted multi-culturalism, and they're not all touchy-feely wonderful ones -- some of the policies of the 80s were way too liberal (in the sense of open) and naive...

I’m suggesting recent illegal immigrants are usually not top drawer stuff. They’re not the best and brightest of their country, just the most desperate and conveniently connected ones. The smartest people in China and many other developing nations now try to do well at school and get to the US by legal means. Let’s work harder to bring those people in.

I agree that we need all the smart, educated immigrants we can get. We should feel lucky that many of the world's best and brightest still see the US as a desirable destination.

But I think it is hard to generalize about "illegal" immigrants because we presently allow so few legal immigrants. Some "illegal" immigrants are ambitious and entrepeneurial, others are "not top drawer stuff." As a taxpayer, I think we should be trying to recruit as many young, healthy, hard-working people as we can for our team. To the extent we can determine in advance who is a criminal or otherwise a net drain on society, perhaps I could accept a policy excluding such people. But it would be a big mistake to assume that anyone who does not currently have legal status under our present restrictive immigration policies is automatically a net drain. And to the extent that they *are* a net drain, it is often because we choose to provide an overly generous welfare state to all comers.

Glen, Astrid,

I am not troubled by the fact that many of the recent immigrants are not the "best and brightest" of their home countries. Over the years, America has done just fine with the great unwashed.

My own ancestors, the group that came over on the Mayflower, were lunatics, members of a lunatic fringe religious sect, the 17th Century equivalent of Hare Krishnas. My other ancestors (as best as I can tell, it is hard to trace the ancestral heritage due to centuries of inbreeding) were French, German, Irish, Scandinavian, and Scots-Irish peasants who came over becaue it was too hard to eke out a living from the depleted soil of the old country.

Virtually all Americans can trace their roots to the lowest of the low. Until recently, the best and brightest -- in terms of education, wealth, or accomplishment -- almost never emigrated here. Yet as a country, we've done just fine. The grandchildren and great-grandchildren of the illegal alien dishwashers of today will be the astronauts and engineers of tomorrow.

It is certainly great to get the best and brightest whenever we can snare one. But even the huddled masses will benefit us in the future. I just think that we cannot overlook the massive costs they involve in the present. I don't mind bearing the current costs but I don't want them to grow any bigger than they already have.

Gangsters, criminals, loan sharks and slave traders should be prosecuted and/or deported.

They should certainly be prosecuted, just as any criminal should be, regardless of ethnicity. There's a question of once you've extended citizenship, do you have the right to take it away? You should have done all your due diligence by then...

there was a populist party here called 'one nation' which was very anti-elite and grassroots based which polled reasonably well -- they were seen as ultra-right wing, but they were pretty well 'nationalist socialists', as were the nazi party and the KKK, where right meets left. they had very simple policies and weren't the sharpest political tools in the shed, but one original stance was that 'any [recent] immigrant who commits a crime should be deported' -- people used to throw water bombs full of urine at them on their way into public meetings... however, the right-wing PM john howard partly succeeded by co-opting their policies in a slightly attenuated and hidden form to steal the votes back...

The thing that all immigrants to America have in common is their attitude. They are all willing to work hard, take risks, and basically get off their rear ends and DO SOMETHING in order to create a better life for themselves. This is a rare quality; lots of people, if not most people, are content to sit on their tails and take whatever life dishes out to them.

An immigrant may be an illiterate, unskilled peasant in his home country, but if he's got the (pardon the expression) balls to get accross the border, I think we can use him.

I agree with your point about unskilled immigrants and future generations of same. As for the present cost, I think it is largely (as I pointed out earlier) a function of our dysfunctional system of tax redistribution. I am certainly not opposed to providing emergency health care and public education for immigrants, but I think the costs of these services could be reduced greatly through deregulation.

I am certainly not opposed to providing emergency health care and public education for immigrants, but I think the costs of these services could be reduced greatly through deregulation.

deregulation, hmm. the american health industry is already one of the most deregulated in the world. however, it costs approximately twice as much to run it as most 'social-ised medicine' countries which further provide a guarantee of affordable access to health care. i.e. the US healthcare system, left in the 'free market', is twice as inefficient as the public healthcare systems which guarantee a universal outcome of affordable quality healthcare. For this reason, the US system has been ranked 37th in the world for the quality of healthcare provided. 'the best [technical] healthcare in the world, for those who can afford it'. at twice the overall cost, due to the HMO/health insurers/doctors/big pharma gouging you for a living and deciding mostly what NOT to pay for...

Gangsters, criminals, loan sharks and slave traders should be prosecuted and/or deported.

They should certainly be prosecuted, just as any criminal should be, regardless of ethnicity. There’s a question of once you’ve extended citizenship, do you have the right to take it away? You should have done all your due diligence by then…

there was a populist party here called ‘one nation’ which was very anti-elite and grassroots based which polled reasonably well — they were seen as ultra-right wing, but they were pretty well ‘nationalist social-ists’, as were the nazi party and the KKK, where right meets left. they had very simple policies and weren’t the sharpest political tools in the shed, but one original stance was that ‘any [recent] immigrant who commits a crime should be deported’ — people used to throw water bombs full of urine at them on their way into public meetings… however, the right-wing PM john howard partly succeeded by co-opting their policies in a slightly attenuated and hidden form to steal the votes back…

'deregulation' is another neoclassical rightwing thinktank weasel word which is code for 'please let me make even more money for myself without scrutiny or oversight or a governing role to guarantee socially acceptable outcomes'.

DS said:
There’s a question of once you’ve extended citizenship, do you have the right to take it away? You should have done all your due diligence by then…

I wasn't talking about deporting people who had already achieved citizenship. I was talking about deporting people who commit crimes in the US, who are not yet citizens. If they are already citizens, then they should be prosecuted under US law, of course.

‘deregulation’ is another neoclassical rightwing thinktank weasel word which is code for ‘please let me make even more money for myself without scrutiny or oversight or a governing role to guarantee socially acceptable outcomes’.

DS: you sound like a socialist. I have never seen a socialist government successfully "guarantee socially acceptable outcomes." It can't be done.

Can someone unlock my last post? I don't think it contained anything offensive...

Glen Says:
DS: you sound like a social-ist. I have never seen a social-ist government successfully “guarantee socially acceptable outcomes.” It can’t be done.

hee hee hee, oh dear. never mind. just remain inward looking and keep reading the US press. europe and the british commonwealth don't exist. canada doesn't exist either. nor does australia or nz. nothing exists except the US. there are no such thing as 'social democratic states'. nor is there such a thing as state-supplied healthcare at a low cost. i pay nothing except 30% taxes for totally free healthcare, doctor's visits, X-rays, ER visits, hospital, etc. antibiotics are never more than about $20. old age and disability pensioners pay $3 for all scripts, and sometimes $0. i voluntarily pay about $200 a year for optional health insurance which grants me 80% of most dental treatments, optical, any script amount not covered by the govt subsidised script system, a free ambulance ride, and a few other sundries -- it's hard not to recover the full $200 just with optical and dental alone. but i don't exist either, nor do the benefits outlined above. and the US isn't ranked 37th in the world for health care, and it doesn't cost twice as much as a dozen comparable countries in the OECD to provide said inferior healthcare. and you can't read without your tiny brain jumping to 'prohibited' words like 'social-ist' and setting off right wing alarm bells guaranteed to keep you in your greed-based system forever...

DS:

I am not a right winger. On the contrary, I am a proud liberal. But I am a liberal in the tradition of Milton Friedman, not Ted Kennedy.

The US spends about a half a trillion dollars per year on defense and homeland security. This is all part of the absurd big government that I oppose. We could afford much better health and welfare services and/or much lower taxes if we did not choose to funnel such an ungodly sum into essentially non-productive endeavors. As beneficiaries of the US security umbrella, Canada, Australia, etc., spend a tiny fraction of what the US spends on defense. The rest gets funneled into the public benefits you have cited.

My own ancestors, the group that came over on the Mayflower, were lunatics, members of a lunatic fringe religious sect, the 17th Century equivalent of Hare Krishnas. My other ancestors (as best as I can tell, it is hard to trace the ancestral heritage due to centuries of inbreeding) were French, German, Irish, Scandinavian, and Scots-Irish peasants who came over becaue it was too hard to eke out a living from the depleted soil of the old country.

It is certainly great to get the best and brightest whenever we can snare one. But even the huddled masses will benefit us in the future. I just think that we cannot overlook the massive costs they involve in the present. I don’t mind bearing the current costs but I don’t want them to grow any bigger than they already have.

Joe,

that was so well said and so true. It is the same here in Canada for most of the people I know, and even the new immigrants are mingling, like a chinese guy marrying a japanese girl, or a punjabi woman marrying an american from Minnesota (a neighbour).

I hate to say it, but the sooner we are all coffee coloured with blue eyes and fizzy red afros, the better as far as I am concerned.

I am way more concerned about new arrivals agreeing on some common courtesies like picking up litter, lining up nicely and watching an occasional hockey game then whether they speak another language at home.

I don't speak at least 4 languages spoken by my ancestors in the last 4 generations - so all these things people hold oh so dear are really transitory.

On a separate note, HARM, your ignorant comments about me trying to inject race into the debate and being a "shudder" liberal are oh so indicative of your close minded point of view. The fact I mentioned some hillbillies and wetbacks and spics and japs was meant to illustrate these issues are not restricted to the target du jour. Hardly an attempt to inject race into a debate, rather, an obvious acknowledgement the elephant is already in the room.

DS -

I've made the same arguments here about the stupidity of the US healthcare system relative to systems in social democracies like Canada and Australia. It's pointless to argue with some of the neo-cons here. You and I both know the alternative is better, and cheaper, let the ignorant unwashed masses of neo-con apologists empty their bank accounts, or go around like Astrid with no coverage and a plan to declare bankruptcy if anything bad happens. That's more efficeient and better for the market, right. I'm sure the HMOs love it when customers declare bankruptcy. I'm sure those costs never get passed onm!!

I posted links to all kinds of stats on infant mortality etc, but the HMOs must collect their dough, and of course the US could never operate a set of fiefdoms inefficiently - why we all know monopolistic national health programs are just the first step to godless communism!!

Mind you, monopolistic military organizations are of course the most efficient and deserve unswerving support from that familiar dupe, the american taxpayer.

Yes, this is now the international bubble blog. This is a universal blog.

I declare the independence of this blog from the narrow minded or otherwise parochial points of view of all american posters, unless they are prepared to join the international blogosphere!

I will post the declaration of independence tomorrow.

Unless of course, since it isn't my blog, I'm not allowed to visit anymore... ;)

DS said:

deregulation, hmm. the american health industry is already one of the most deregulated in the world. however, it costs approximately twice as much to run it as most ’social-ised medicine’ countries which further provide a guarantee of affordable access to health care. i.e. the US healthcare system, left in the ‘free market’, is twice as inefficient as the public healthcare systems which guarantee a universal outcome of affordable quality healthcare.

You're joking, right? US healthcare deregulated?? Not quite. We have layers upon layers of bureaucratic sclerosis. Consumers have no idea what health care even costs because of the insurance industry, which acts as an intermediary. Health insurance is subsidized in a haphazard and inefficient way by permitting employers to deduct health care premiums, while denying the same benefit to the unemployed or self-employed. Medicare provides incomplete coverage to the old and the poor, but everyone else is left to fend for themselves.

I am not a free market purist, as I stated earlier. I believe in sensible regulation which allows consumers to make informed choices. Neither the US system, nor the social democratic systems, provide for such informed choices. I suppose my ideal scenario would involve a minimal healthcare social safety net for all citizens (for catastrophic care and preventive medicine), with consumers free to supplement this coverage through private insurance or self insurance.

As beneficiaries of the US security umbrella, Canada, Australia, etc., spend a tiny fraction of what the US spends on defense. The rest gets funneled into the public benefits you have cited.

Glen,

the benefits of US protection are seriously overrated. Our only large potential adversary in Canada is the american military- which, by the way has drawn up plans to invade Canada numerous times, or have you forgotten the War of 1812? If the Chinese were in Alaska and threatening to attack, we could easily mobilize if we had to. Go read some history on who was in the war first in WW1-WW2, who was in Korea, who was in Gulf War 1, who is in Haiti and Afghanistan now... yes that's right, the free-riding Canadians were dying when Woodrow Wilson and FDR were delaying...

Interesting fact -

most of the american nuclear arsenal is filled with fissionable material from - Canada. Imagine the world that would have existed if that hadn't been readily available for the taking...

I think I can hear keyboards tippy tappy typing all over California...

Tsusiat said:
I’ve made the same arguments here about the stupidity of the US healthcare system relative to systems in social democracies like Canada and Australia. It’s pointless to argue with some of the neo-cons here.I posted links to all kinds of stats on infant mortality etc, but the HMOs must collect their dough, and of course the US could never operate a set of fiefdoms inefficiently - why we all know monopolistic national health programs are just the first step to godless communism!!

Mind you, monopolistic military organizations are of course the most efficient and deserve unswerving support from that familiar dupe, the american taxpayer.

I'm not a fan of monopolistic national healthcare or monopolistic military organizations. There is no free lunch and there are no "free" doctor visits. Someone is paying for it. Just because the cost is hidden, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I am not necessarily opposed to a wealth redistribution system designed to provide universal care. I just think that such a system should be transparent, with costs and benefits made public to all and with the ability to opt out if a competitor offers a better deal.

Glen -

the cost isn't hidden - I pay higher income taxes than you, and so do the corporations here.

But not that much higher. Check out the CIA factbook.

And I don't worry about those nasty problems cancer, diabetes, cardiac arrest and all those other little problems that can punch a hole in your bank account, or cause bankruptcy.

Except as health problems.

Check this out:

the army can't pay the bills, courtesy Yahoo:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060706/ap_on_re_us/army_budget_crunch