patrick.net

Muggy Says:

> Speaking of “out-of-wack,” I rent for $650/mo.
> what would cost me $2k/mo. to own.

There is a condo for sale at 2208 Vallejo in SF for $2,995,000 (MLS# 307478)

If I make a $600K cash down payment (and stop getting the $2,500 a month in CD income that comes close to covering my current rent in the area) my mortage payment will only be about $15,000 a month + property taxes of about $3,000 a month, HOA dues of about $1,000 and another $500 to rent a second parking space in the area (since the $2.9mm condo only has one space).

Things are out of whack when it is about $20,000 month more than I am paying now in rent to "buy" a condo (not a mansion with a 5 car garage, but a crappy condo with one parking space)...

San Francisco price data. You decide how hard or soft previous landings were.

First chart is median home prices 1975-2005 for the Bay Area MSA, in nominal terms.

Second chart is the real median house price growth for the same period. Note that nowhere did median real home prices drop faster than 8% in any given year. 1981-82 barely broke -5%. 1991-1996 peaked at -8% in 91, then settled back to about -5% until 95, then drifted back to 0%.

Third chart is the same as the first chart, but adjusted for inflation and stated in 2000 dollars (thus real prices). Here you can see the absolute drop in median during the real-price decline years. 81-82 are barely visible. The 90s drop fell from about $380K to $300K (in 2000 dollars).

**source, HSBC, Jan 10, 2006.

(you may need to click on the graphic to enlarge it in your browser)

Yeah, what people who post here don't remember is how absolutely hellish the late 80's were in the LA economy. Unemployment was something like 15%, the aerospace industry was pretty much leaving the area entirely and even so, home prices only went down about 25% over three years.

Even with all the easy money that has been floating around, I don't see it going down that much again, barring a major recession. The economy is not exactly doing great, but we are hardly in any kind of recession.

Jimbo,

Just wait for the HELOC money and RE related jobs dry up. This economy may look better than the one in 1990, but I think the fundamentals are pretty bad. Furthermore, a lot of houses are held by mortgage brokers and realtors, so I definitely see those houses coming on the market whatever the price.

I can demonstrate that decrease of pirates cause increases in global warming. They disrupt shipping and kill people. Disrupting shipping causes a drop in shipping and lower consumption of shipping fuel. It also depresses export economies, causing them to use less fossil fuel.

We also know that people are a likely source of greenhouse gases, which lead to global warming (ref: Al Gore's Futurama clip). If they are killed, that reduces the source.

aeroplanes cause global dimming....

peak oil is still a problem: bakhtiari says it occurred last year....

Oil production limit reached: expert. 10/07/2006. ABC News Online

An international oil industry expert says the limit of global oil production has been reached.

Academic and former National Iranian Oil Company executive Dr Ali Samsam Bakhtiari has told the Financial Services Institute in Sydney the world's oil fields are producing as much oil as they can.

He says giant fields in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are struggling to meet production targets.

Dr Bakhtiari says the massive output declines in the North Sea oil fields and Mexican oil fields will have a major economic impact.

Dr Bakhtiari says for the first time in 150 years, the world is entering an era in which it cannot have all the oil it wants.

He says there are five years left to plan priorities for the use of crude oil.

astrid,

Now there's something that doesn't get near the "air time" it deserves! In my arena I suppose we would consider these "investment properties" the equivelant of "insider holdings". I can't think of ONE mort. brkr. or realtwhore I've met in the last 5 years that DIDN'T have their own deal/deals in the works. When you think about it if one could pocket a 100, 200, 500K+ that's a lot of commissions/fees that they don't have to generate by sweat of brow! My wife had heard (through the bamboo mafia) that a Filipina realtor in LV got over extended with flipper properties and now has to decide wether she wants to keep up payments on her primary residence and let her inv. prop. go or take her chances at the craps table? Pretty predictable huh?

david cee,

We recently returned from a trip to LV and I dare say the scenario you describe above is the least of their worries. I'd seen a billboard right on Tropicana Ave. offering brand new const. condos (2/2) for "the mid 100's. It's going to be difficult for this investor to do anything when builders are offering all kinds of incentives a private inv. can't come close to competing with. You're right though, this guy is past his denial stage and likely generating considerable "anger". I'd seen several eye catching bold print ads that offer "Close before August 15th and Get a FREE POOL! Mind you this was part of a builder's unsold, never lived in inventory!

yeah, it's all just a big, huge mess... we should never have come down from the trees...

">BTW, Downtown Palo Alto and Mountain View are really thriving. That may cushion the soft landing for certain types of properties.

Seriously… i haven’t seen any RE distress in these two places. Darn. "

I have been monitoring Mountain View and Los Altos house prices, and there have been some price reductions of 50,000 -100,000 some even a bit more - some of the houses are listed as new listings so you don't see the price reductions (800,000 - 1.5m house price range) - but I have the previous listings to compare the new ones. It's only a few cases at the minute and some houses are still selling, but the market has changed here! Houses that are not quite situated right are not doing so well now.

I cant' afford them yet, but I enjoy keeping a tab on them all, so I know what I want when the time is right. :-) Meanwhile I rent a house for 2400, that would cost $8000 per month to buy interest only (rough estimate) and then there's all the home improvements it needs...

Claire

DinOR Says:

Surfer X/Michael Holliday,

Uh I hate to break it to you guys but it’s not just the “Cali” of our youth that the boomers have “re-invented” and custom tailored for their second childhood. It the whole freakin country.

_____

Yes!

The three days of peace, love, and excrement hurled in prodigious quantities, that they called "Woodstock," has spread out like a giant socio-political-economic stain over this great land of ours, 3-4 decades later.

Too bad we weren't of age in Cali during the 70s. By default, if we were able to roll out of bed and make it to work, even if still half drunk and stoned (like many did), we'd now be sitting at the top of the friggen' real estate heap, fat and happy as a clam in a bowl of New England-style clam chow chow.

Conor,

I don't disagree with your reasoning. The only contention I have in your assumptions is the notion that CA is the most expensive cost of operations state. It is about in the middle. I think we ranked 24th most expensive last I looked. Of course, this depends upon industry and varies quite a bit.

Certainly the disparity between "haves" and "have nots" won't be remedied by a housing correction. This is one of the things I get annoyed about from various bear camps. It's one thing to be a rational skeptic, it's another thing to be hoping that some coming calamity will punish the wicked and reward the righteous. That pretty much never happens in economic history. When things restructure the outcomes aren't usually very rational or righteous...they just are different with a bias towards the wealthy protecting themselves while everyone else fights it out.

I do think inflation will go a long way towards correcting the affordability imbalance; but not all the way. Real prices of homes have to drop too. By how much I can't guess. But I insist that there must be wage inflation if there is cost inflation, just lagged. Simply applying cost inflation to the rental market, which is more liquid than the housing market, will put incredible pressure on wages. In fact, wages are already rising very strongly, as last week's data showed.

And just for clarification, I am not a Bull or a Bear, although I usually get called both by extremists on either side. My definition of Bull is "the last guy to realize the party's over". My definition of Bear is "the last guy to capitulate at the top; the greatest fool".

Conor,

Rich Toscano (all around great guy and SoCal Bubble Authority) confirms your take at Prof. Piggington's! He de-bunks more myth than you can shake a stick at. I think the article is "Why is it so expensive to live in Southern California"? He further substantiates *astrid's* position that in a number of cases flipper properties are owned by realtors and mortgage brokers among others that rely on RE as their primary source of income.

Randy H,

My definition of a bear couldn't be more different. Bears typically believe that EVERYTHING is over rated, over bought and overvalued. Sour grapes are always within an arms reach and they would rather take a 6% return when even widows are making 12%!

Bears don't create anything, employ people or innovate new products. They critique what others have done (wether or not they have been asked to do so). I don't really mind either camp, it doesn't bother me either way but what we have been surrounded by for the last 5+ years has been "hogs".

Just as few among us are true introverts or extroverts, most of us are ambiverts. Some things I'm bullish on, others bearish. That's the trick. Knowing what to be bearish on and when to be bullish. Who was it that said: "I made all of my money by selling early"?

DS said: i certainly don’t mean to imply that the tejon ranch co is a scam company such as the one i posted. however i posted a warning in part to look out for hucksters in the ongoing real estate scam, and for people to think about the moral consequences of what stocks they’re buying. buying a stock in a company implies you support their practices and raison d’etre, it doesn’t let you off the hook. buying stocks in an arms dealership and living off the profits makes you just as guilty and involved as the arms dealer.

Well, I generally support Tejon's practices. They own a huge chunk of relatively undeveloped land in the Central Valley. However, rather than optioning it off for "roof farms" to the highest bidding homebuilder, thereby transforming the landscape into seas of cookie-cutter homes which will end up vacant when the bubble bursts, they are committed to sustainable development over the long term. You may want to check out tejon.com.

I don't buy defense contractors or tobacco companies. Other than that, I'm comfortable owning most publicly traded stocks. However, I do not deceive myself into thinking that my abstention from purchasing defense contractors or tobacco companies will in any way hurt their businesses. Because for everyone like me who abstains from purchasing such stocks, someone else will be happy to step in to take the profits. Taxation and regulation are much more effective ways of policing the market than "ethical investing."

Pretty amusing post. Of course this little group here is attempting the same type of market gaming on the other side of the table. We all want to convince each other and as many people as possible not to buy. Once prices come down to a price that any individual one of us thinks is "fair", "doable" or "bottom", we'll pull the trigger and start praying for price increases the next day. We're all rational economic actors, after all.

Here's some more inventory data to convince help our little buyer's conspiracy maintain loyalty...

San Mateo (all price ranges):
6/8/06 1363
6/12/06 1428
6/19/06 1452
6/26/06 1467
7/10/06 1488

San Jose (all price ranges):
6/8/06 3669
6/12/06 3709
6/19/06 3793
6/26/06 3915
7/10/06 3915

Glen,

There has been measureable headway made in the are of "green investing". Just a few years ago these types of funds were almost unheard of. Now they have enough of a foot print they can confront say, Coca Cola about the plastic six pack "rings" that dolphins keep finding on their snouts! So they are gaining traction. Also many charitable institutions by charter are starting to shy away from "sin" stocks. At first it really was just a "feel good" measure but because these funds have little fear of litigation going forward some have out performed. Hell, even I'm more willing to consider them b/c frankly I've weathered about as many class action law suits as I'd care to.

George,

"floating phantom offers"

"even the bargains are languishing on the market"

Oh so good to hear from you my friend. For those among my friends and associates that have not yet "converted" I offer FL as a little insight as to what the future may hold (and you bring it in abundance)! Yes we have considered building as a way around bubble pricing but as they always say YOU MAKE YOUR MONEY ON THE BUY! So if we don't "buy" the lot (or acreage) right I doubt the net result would be different. It's funny to note though that many of the builders pricing and sales tactics during the upswing was that their "nuts were in a vice" yet they continue to discount as they move forward with new projects and sub divisions. What's up with that?

FRIFY,

Up until very recently ONLY BULLS participated in RE. There was no bearish presence at all. Now with near real time coverage and derivatives like "housing futures" bears are finally having "some" kind of input. This is a balance that's been sorely lacking for years (along with some serious restructuring of the RE industry). Like Peter P I'll remain bearish until it no longer makes sense to be bearish!

SQT,

No point. Carry on! ;-)

DinOR,

Now with near real time coverage and derivatives like “housing futures” bears are finally having “some” kind of input.

No, unlike the stock market you can't sell housing short (without suffering significant transaction costs and having the value of your option priced by suspect metrics). Bears have no say other than to try to convince borderline bulls to put down the gun and back slowly away from the house.

We all want to be bulls one day. As bears, when thinking about housing, we find ourselves wishing un-social thoughts (earthquake? bankruptcies? interest rate hikes? recessions? Hurray!). It's not any way to live life, wishing misfortune on those around you. I thank you all for the support, but I'm going to try not to think about it for the next couple years.

un-social? dis-social? contra-social? a-social?

duh. antisocial, although ass-ocial might be more descriptive when I find myself wanting the roof to drop in on the neighbors. Bad Karma, must purge.

Now with near real time coverage and derivatives like “housing futures” bears are finally having “some” kind of input.

It seems that housing futures may not have a future. :(

FRIFY,

The Chicago Mercantile Exchange is now actively trading "housing futures". They have "puts and calls". True, the volumes aren't yet staggering but this is a relatively new development and I can easily picture a day when these Top 10 Market indicators will be used by everyone from builders and lenders to insurance companies down to the end user (homeowner). They've only been trading a few weeks so not much data to lean on but I think Robert Schiller knows what he's doing.

If I was (and I'm not) a lender doing 100%+ financing at the what I suspect may be the peak of the market at least having a "short" position in my target markets provides me with some downside protection. Let's not be so hasty here.

FRIFY,

I agree, it's not healthy to wish havoc on others so you can "reap" some sort of twisted benefit, but the "wealth effect" from housing had to end. I shudder to think what this country would look like if everyone with a min. wage job and can fog a mirror buying a jet-ski, boat and a motor home to pull it all with just b/c they "qualified" for a home! On a positive note, even on I-5 and 99E pretty much the length of CA I only saw a handful of out and out motor homes. Virtually none on 95/395 through the desert. Of course as this was my first opportunity to take that route I can't say if it's the norm.

On the healthiness of wishing for havoc...

What about the havoc the bubble has already wrought by making it impossible for rational people to afford a house?

What about wishing that your equity continues to increase by 20% per year, each year making it more certain your children will NEVER be able to own their own home?

What about the havoc of your taxes going up year after year because of inflated markets, to the point that even upon paying off the mortgagte debt, the mortgage slavery burden has shifted to the tax burden instead?

What about the havoc that was inevitable from suckering people with not enough earning capacity into suicide loans?

What about if you live in a non-bubble area, and would like to take a job in a bubble area, but won't because the housing cost discrepancy is so huge?

I hope it crashes, and crashes big. The FB's drank the koolaid of greed and speculation. I hope they gag on it.

On the healthiness of wishing for havoc…

It may not be healty... but hey... I eat unhealthy food all the time. :)

We all want to be bulls one day. As bears, when thinking about housing, we find ourselves wishing un-social thoughts (earthquake? bankruptcies? interest rate hikes? recessions? Hurray!). It’s not any way to live life, wishing misfortune on those around you.

I respectfully disagree. Many of us here would like to be HOMEOWNERS one day --which is not necessarily synonymous with "bull" or RE investor. I don't see the roof over my head as a sure-fire "investment". Big difference. And by "owner", I mean someone with some actual skin in the game and an actual chance of paying off the mortgage before the Grim Reaper comes calling for you.

As far as the Schadenfreude goes, don't you think perhaps after months (or years) of being attacked and insulted as JBRs merely for bringing up the POSSIBILITY that there might be something fundamentally wrong with vagrants and parking attendents buying 18 condos with NINAs, we MIGHT be entitled to a little "payback". After taking RE bulls/trolls shit for so long, why am I supposed to feel GUILTY for taking a little pleasure watching these arrogant fucks eat shit for a change? It's my turn and I'm taking it.

I agree that wishing misfortune on regular DECENT people is no way to go through life. By contrast, wishing just desserts & poetic justice on greedy a$$hats is not only healthy and morally just, it's fun!

By contrast, wishing just deserts & poetic justice on greedy a$$hats is not only healthy and morally just, it’s fun!

Way to go, HARM, Lord of Moral Justice!

HARM, Ric,

Good points! Very good indeed. My friend took his kids to see "Cars" this weekend and one of the lines was something like "having more fun than a tornado in a trailer park" which is pushing the bounds of dark humor. Hoping some asshat greedy specuvestor takes it dead in the gazingus is not quite the same thing. And you know HARM you're right! Buying a home for shelter and to raise children need not be construed as a sign of "bullishness".

For those who require sanction from a Higher Power in order to feel ok about witnessing Wrath visited upon the guilty (who richly deserve it), here you go:

I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes; and they will know that I am the LORD when I lay My vengeance on them.
--Ezekiel 25:17

DinOR,

I don't think green investing means anything if its in the form of minority holdings. Scattered minority shareholders are unlikely to do much good. Furthermore, determining the criteria of green is hard. If those "green investors" were serious, they would invest in totally green new companies or companies turning green,

I agree that wishing misfortune on regular DECENT people is no way to go through life. By contrast, wishing just deserts & poetic justice on greedy a$$hats is not only healthy and morally just, it’s fun!

Yeah, I guess it's just that I have some pretty decent older neighbors (silent and even greatest Generation on multiple sides of us). Yes, they're sitting on too much house for their needs and yes they pay ridiculously low taxes, but they're good folk living modest lives.

I'd gladly call uninsured lightning down on the empty Palo Alto house that Patrick mentions on his Prop-13 page, but when I found my noggin rationalizing that bird flu would clean out some of the older dead wood, I realized I'd gone over to the dark side. It's easy to wish karmic justice on obviously maligned souls like the person quoted at the top of this thread. Either there's going to be a tsunami that's going to sweep over this land and claim both good and bad souls or else we savers will continue to suffer the long hard screw of unreported inflation while the guilty will continue to reap the benefits of a sinful life.

I reject both the hedonist party outcome and the Calvinist desire for hell and damnation for the sinners.

Yeah, I guess it’s just that I have some pretty decent older neighbors (silent and even greatest Generation on multiple sides of us). Yes, they’re sitting on too much house for their needs and yes they pay ridiculously low taxes, but they’re good folk living modest lives.

Collateral damage.

Maybe its paranoid to say so, but this price rise and equity cashout is supporting the Boomer's unsupportable lifestyle at the cost of all future generations. Price going back to what they paid in real dollar or even nominal dollars is just fair. People should never have treated their houses like a financial investment. A house is an investment/commitment to a lifestyle. Once ordinary people get on the equity appreciation train, they're playing with fire and getting burned is the likely outcome.

Maybe its paranoid to say so, but this price rise and equity cashout is supporting the Boomer’s unsupportable lifestyle at the cost of all future generations.

You are not paranoid. It is true. However, there is no conspiracy. It is a semi-free market at work. Prices go up. Prices go down.

Are you in the bay area already? Let me know if you want to have lobster sashimi.

FRIFY,

If your neighbors didn't irresponsibly take out equity, any bubble deflation is just returning them to their situation several years ago, sans the crazy 50% valuation on their house.

If people functioned responsibly and rationally, prices can go down 50% and most wouldn't be hurt or could bear the pain. The only exceptions I see are people buying in exurban areas and urban pioneers, because the areas might turn bad.

astrid,

I'm by no means an expert where "the environment" is concerned but what we see as the driving force behind "green" investment portfolios is it is a reflection of the impact of women joining the arena. I don't want to make this a gender driven issue but for generations males had and managed the money. It was all about "show me the money". Now that more woman are taking an active int. in investing things that were seldom an issue before have moved to the foreground. You're right, someone that has 100 shrs. of WMT isn't going to influence policy a lick! But collectively if a fund manager with substantial holdings says if you guys don't address your packaging issues there are other retailers we can buy then they have to at least listen. It's just a step in the right direction after years of indifference.