patrick.net

Those are probably my biggest concerns. I dislike the greed and cramped feel of the Bay Area.

Bay Area is not cramped at all. In Tokyo, it is scary.

Returning to the BA,

Portland takes pains to remind everyone that he who develops last develops best. The city council is filled with self important dickheads that do exactly as they please (without respect to the voters).

But we still have "big city" style politics. Our former Chief of Police (pretty good guy) was dumped from office over a FIVE YEAR OLD AFFAIR w/former co-worker. The Chief had just gotten divorced and did a few dumb things. NOW 5 years later this comes up just as he is trying to get all of our poor former law enforcement officers OFF of disability and back on a desk job to save the city money! Funny how that came up just as he was trying to clean up a situation of people that "threw their back out" 5 or 10 years ago and are still collecting a FULL paycheck on disability! Anyone attempting to move to Portland b/c they think they will escape that brand of politics is kidding themselves. Sorry.

@Returning,

L.A. until I can make my own move to one of those nice mid-sized cities in either the Pacific NW or the South. Naturally, I will try to shut to shut the door behind me. :twisted:

I wonder if residents of these CA-exodus destinations will begin to organize their own "Minuteman" border brigades to keep out Kalifornicators?

"So... you say you're from San Dieg-ho, eh...? Sorry, we don't recognize CA drivers licenses here --too much fraud down there. What makes you think you can come here and f@ck up Portland too? "

What is th prognosis for the southern cal area? I left the inland empire area of western san bernardino county. The same crap happening there to a lesser extent. I moved to SC for the time being I'd like to go back but homes tripled in the last five years. Alot of flipping in the LA metro area on dumpster houses in some of the worst areas. Amazingly! they are getting over 500k fr some of this "s'it". The real estate business is scamming consumers here big time..

Your right on with income not keeping up with the cost of living that is why I left. The condo I rent here for $695 would cost me $2000 in california. If the levels ever dropped significantly like pre 2000 prices I may have incentive to return. I remember in 2000 you could still get a decent condo for 150k two years later 225k presently 400k all in a five year span.

The real estate industry in california is saying million dollar homes will be the norm in the next few years. Some of the first 40 year morgage programs are originating from southern cal. So if a million is the norm who are all these people who will be buying at that level? Will companies be paying salaries to suppport that regional market? I think alot of people are in big denial the whole lifestyle there is unsustainable.

I didn't even touch on gas prices and gridlock. That's another problem in itself...

Re: HARM Said...(paraphrase)

"This is a LOCAL shop,
for LOCAL people.."

{Edward and Tubbs, Royston Vasey residents, 'League of Gentleman'...}

Ah...OK....none of you has the foggiest what I'm on about....

(I'll get me coat......)

Returning to Bay Area Says:

Every blog I read is full of people who live in Portland clamoring for new comers to not come. They claim Portland is already overbuilt and that paradise will be lost if people continue to move there.

Every place has NIMBY losers like that. The minute you move into town, you join right in with the rest of the NIMBY crowd and cry about how the place is getting overrun with people moving in from XX. PNW uses the BA as a scapegoat, the desert SW uses LA, VT and NH use Boston or NY, etc etc. It's one of the many annoying aspects of human nature.

It’s one of the many annoying aspects of human nature.

There is no annoying aspect in human nature. Humanity is the annoying aspect of the universe.

HARM,

LOL!

Yes, you'll want to make sure you can get your hands on plenty of Prozac!

As I've always said, I'm not a "Native Oregonian". I grew up on the south side of Chicago. (It's a great place to be FROM)! Since I'm from a "lower caste" than "Native Oregonians" it's not my place to invite or dissuade others to or from our "special" Oregon. When you get your voters pamphlet you'll notice that most of our aspiring candidates list a Cali school under their education credentials. So like I say, you won't be escaping much of anything. Even with a bubble here you can still find decent values. I've lived here off and on since the late 70's and the rain STILL BUGS ME! I was at the coast yesterday and it was 61 degrees. They were having this "Blues and Bar-b-que at the Beach" and it was gusty and chilly. Now on the ride back though it quickly warmed up to 88 degrees within about 30 miles inland.

Assuming you're an "equity locust" keep a little of your powder dry and get a place here and one in LV (just in case).

Hold your judgement.

Generally speaking, the bulk of the migrants (from BA to PNW, from Boston to VT+NH) are average-income families. They just earn more by being in certain high-income locations. They will not bring anything of special values to the communities they move into. Let me repeat. They are just average folks who lose out in their respective environs.

The communities that they move into actually welcome a different set of people, those who can bring something special to the table: Lots of money or special talents or business startups.

Speaking of this Money magazine survey:
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/2006/index.html

This is an interesting juxtaposition. The first list below is their top 25 cities to live in (based on their measures of jobs, crime, culture, housing, and all that usual stuff-let's assume their methodology is useful for the sake of this argument). The second list is the list of the most expensive towns from the same survey. Note how Santa Clarita is the only CA town to make the best-of living list, while Greenwich, CT and Bethesda, MD are the only NON-CA towns to make it to the most expensive list? In other words, we Californians pay too much to live in places that aren't worth the money.

But we knew that already, didn't we?

Best Places to Live:
(Rank, City, population)
1 Fort Collins, CO 128,000
2 Naperville, IL 141,600
3 Sugar Land, TX 75,800
4 Columbia/Ellicott City, MD 159,200
5 Cary, NC 106,400
6 Overland Park, KS 164,800
7 Scottsdale, AZ 226,000
8 Boise, ID 193,200
9 Fairfield, CT 57,800
10 Eden Prairie, MN 60,600
11 Plano, TX 250,100
12 Eagan, MN 63,700
13 Olathe, KS 112,100
14 West Bloomfield , MI 65,000
15 Richardson, TX 99,200
16 Gilbert, AZ 178,100
17 Parsippany-Troy Hills, NJ 51,600
18 Santa Clarita, CA 172,500
19 Carrollton, TX 124,700
20 Henderson, NV 232,100
21 Bellevue, WA 117,100
22 Newton, MA 83,200
23 Sandy, UT 89,700
24 Westminster, CO 105,100
25 Ann Arbor, MI

Here are the cities with the highest median home price.
(Rank, city, median home price 2005)
1 Newport Beach, CA $1,362,500
2 Greenwich, CT $1,129,000
3 Santa Barbara, CA $979,500
4 Palo Alto, CA $929,000
5 Cupertino, CA $880,000
6 Goleta, CA $870,000
7 San Clemente, CA $848,500
8 Bethesda, MD $790,000
9 Pleasanton, CA $785,000
10 Santa Monica, CA $784,000
11 Redondo Beach, CA $777,500
12 Redwood City, CA $767,500
13 San Francisco, CA $755,000
14 Yorba Linda, CA $750,000
15 San Rafael, CA $745,000
16 Encinitas, CA $742,500
17 San Ramon, CA $725,000
18 San Mateo, CA $720,000
19 Arcadia, CA $703,000
20 Santa Cruz, CA $690,000
21 South San Francisco, CA $690,000
22 Berkeley, CA $683,500
23 Alameda, CA $682500
24 Carlsbad, CA $680,000
25 Huntington Beach, CA $678,500

Skibum,

Considering what NIMBY anti-development policies combined with pro-illegal "all population growth is good" politics have done to CA, I wouldn't be too quick to label these people "losers". Some of them may be trying to preserve what makes these places worth moving to.

That said, I believe the quality of immigration matters just as much to the locals as quantity. As GC said, if you bring something special to the table, you will probably be welcomed with open arms wherever you go.

Hold your judgement.

The communities that they move into actually welcome a different set of people, those who can bring something special to the table: Lots of money or special talents or business startups.

GC,
I'm trying to understand your point. Are you saying don't blame the equity migrants, they're just trying to get by and moving to cheaper regions is their response to overpriced cost of living, or are you saying, the locals in these communities are selfish and only want you to move there if you're loaded or will create jobs?

skibum, HARM got it right.

No wonder I’m confused. I have a cat AND a dog.

We have a dog-like cat. :)

That said, I believe the quality of immigration matters just as much to the locals as quantity. As GC said, if you bring something special to the table, you will probably be welcomed with open arms wherever you go.

That's a fine aspiration to have, but as of now, you can't restrict which people move into your region based on whether they will be positive or negative for your community. It's a free country still, and a young brilliant guy/gal wanting to create a startup in your town has the same right to move there as a retiring boomer couple that will buy up a historic home, tear it down and build a McMansion in its place (aside from any preservation laws, etc). Of course, the local community can legislate all they want in terms of "smart growth" and limiting sprawl - I'm all for that. My point is that I've seen in more than one instance that some of the most vocal NIMBYists are the most recent migrants to that region.

Skibum,

Assuming that article is accurate then 23 of the top 25 median priced home markets are in CA? Did I read that right?

So…you’re liberally conservative????
or
Conservatively liberal???

I definitely like to eat liberal food. :)

Assuming that article is accurate then 23 of the top 25 median priced home markets are in CA? Did I read that right?

And Cupertino is #5! Ha Ha.

1 Newport Beach, CA $1,362,500 - Nice beach and weather

2 Greenwich, CT $1,129,000 - Hedge funds

3 Santa Barbara, CA $979,500 - Nice beach and weather

4 Palo Alto, CA $929,000 - Stanford

5 Cupertino, CA $880,000 - Huh???

DinOR,

Yup, sad to say it is true. What this list doesn't even tell you is the value/quality of those median priced homes. I'll bet a median priced home in Bethesda, MD is a heck of a lot nicer to live in than the median priced home in Cupertino.

skibum,

The key is to carve out a place in the community. I don't mean a dwelling place, but a purposeful position in your community, be it public service or business or employment. One has to serve a function in the community.

Let us analyze the situation.

1. You are a middle-income worker who decides to take the money that you saved from your high-paying BA job and buy a house in PNW.

2. Suppose you cannot buy the house outright. You will have to work to pay off the mortgage. You will just be like an average worker in PNW, except your added savings will jack up the housing costs here and your daily commute will add to the worsening traffic jams. In other words, you don't really win and local people lose a little.

3. Suppose you have just enough money to buy an average single family house to retire. Then what? How are you going to spend the rest of your life? You are not rich enough to support the local community. All you can contribute is to pay property taxes and sales taxes. You, though taking up a single-family dwelling that should have belonged to a contributing adult, are irrelevant in the community that you move into. You are nobody, worse than the ones who are making minimum wages.

4. Now, suppose you are a hot-shot ballarina who happens to like PNW. You come here and help improve the cultural life in PNW. People love you, even though you don't rake in as much as a Silicon Valley software engineer. You enjoy your life here, becuase you are part of the community and are respected.

5. Now, suppose you are a successful enterpreneur and you love PNW. You move your company here from Alberqueuque, NM and create many, many jobs in this area.

Do you get my point?

You have to pick a place that you like, stay and fight for your existence.

You have to pick a place that you like, stay and fight for your existence.

Another option: telecommute from Vancouver WA, shop in Portland, OR and keep the BA salary. Maximum arbitrage.

GC,

Good points. I for one am tired of hearing that the retirees/boomers are "the goose that laid the golden egg"! Some will have a positive impact by making some form of contribution but no, your unshaven face, baggy shorts, a hat with droppings on it that says "Damn I hate seagulls", shirt that says "Don't ask me for Money I'm Retired" and the occasional purchases you make do not constitute a "contribution".

If I moved to Portland, then purchased a home in a beautiful area with a nearby lake and copses of trees, then builders came in and tore down the trees and emptied the lake for new construction, then I would be mad as hell. Who wouldn’t?

I am pro-development. If I buy a house next to a park I would always keep in mind the possibility that it may be developed someday.

Moreover, if you want to preserve your environment, you can always buy the lake, the trees, and the land around you.

GC,
I did get your point from the get-go. I'm not an idiot and your "Do you get my point?" comment is borderline condescending. Of course your examples make sense. In fact I agree with you. In the ideal world, every member of your local community should add to the community, making it a better place to live for everyone (your ballerina example). We would all love that.

However, you have yet to acknowledge my 2 points about this. First, you as a "local" can clamor all you want on message boards, but people who are merely going to be social/community ballasts are still going to move in to a place they perceive as "nirvana." In fact, the more you clamor, the more people will get the notion that this place is a "great place to live." Until you secede from the US and impose strict immigration standards (turn the PNW into Switzerland, for example), it is difficult to stem the tide of migration. Second, to reiterate again, my now obscured other point was merely that my observation is that many of the most vocal NIMBYists are the most recently moved to that area.

WoW, I sense a war has come my way.

I sense a war has come my way.

No war for you. It is all in the middle east now.

GC,
Not war, just clarification. You're just much more idealstic than I am about this whole thing.

Peter P Says:

5 Cupertino, CA $880,000 - Huh???

You are paying to live within the Google sphere of influence.

You are paying to live within the Google sphere of influence.

LOL :lol:

Skibum,

You are absolutely "spot on" with your observation regarding the latest converts to NIMBYism! The old joke goes that a logger is a guy that dreams of having a cabin in the woods one day. An environmentalist? He already has one!

That's why I pointed out that many of the folks that run for political office here in OR list a Cal school for the "credentials" hoping that either no one will actually read it OR that they will be viewed as a candidate that rejects what CA seems to stand for. A progressive if you will. Even to this day I STILL point out to prospective clients that I'm NOT a native! For God's sake if they find out later that you're not? You'll be prosecuted for impersonating a "Native Oregonian". It's that bad.

Actually, many natives don't like over development and large influx of new people. They are the ones who are generally priced out and marginalized. But many don't complain. They just resign and move further away from the center.

I once had a middle-aged handyman coming to do some work in my condo. He grew up here. We had to go to Home Depot to get a new toilet. On the way there, he pointed out the whole shopping mall, the highway next to it, and the traffic jam and commented to me, "You know, before you guys came, this was all woods and wilderness." His tone was not all that happy.

Regarding NE people welcoming new comers. I think they'll welcome you because you merely replace a former neighbor. NE is old enough that it'll assimilate the new comers. Besides, the size of immigration into NE towns is a lot smaller than on the west coast.

I propose a compromise:

Market NIMBYism - the city will produce a list of specifications (amount of open space, traffic, access, sunlight impact, etc) for the land and let owners develop freely so long as the specs are met. Or better yet, they can let owners remove certain restrictions for a price.

skibum, I didn't mean to be rude. I apologize. I was a little agitated, as agitated by my insights.

Governor Conan,
You made some good points above, but I think you left something fairly major out, which is why many people in California are moving out and into less pricey-more normal areas.
To many californians, simply working and having a purpose to work is a luxury. Working in Cali means you're going to be unable to afford a home here, so why work hard at all? Many californians simply want to work normal jobs and afford a normal lifestyle. What is passed as " normal" for most people in the country is passed off as the lifestyle of the rich in Cali.

GC,
No problem. Like I said, i think we're on the same page, just I'm noticeably more jaded.

You might enjoy this article from Sunday's NYT:
http://tinyurl.com/f4ckz

A small island off of Charleston, SC has been developed. The guy they feature as a resident there is Mr. Quimby:

There he meets about eight other men who gather most days. “It’s like the old cracker barrel or hardware store,” said Mr. Quinby, an advertising executive who moved here four years ago from Beverly Hills, Calif. “We get together and fix all the world’s problems.”

Great, your local yokel is a guy who just moved in from Beverly Hills. I'm sure the townfolk with family roots going back to the Confederacy love this guy. It's like "Green Acres" without the funny one-liners.

I would prefer PNW weather to BA. There's no need to water for 9 months out of the year and good hiking for the rest of the year. I'm more concerned about slugs and mosquitoes and man eating bears.

There are solutions to the lack of sunlight. Maybe install a high intensity growing light set up and put a lawn chair underneath, that should help combat depression.

As far as people in the West having a fear of newomers, I think the fear is less to do about physical property and more about intelligent property- quote-unquote. Many, many many people in California are from somewhere else, and of those people, many came here to " get away" from situations, conditions, and problems in other places in the country. Ever since the popularity of portraying the state as progressive and forward thinking in the media, people have flocked here thinking that somehow this area will solve all their problems, that they can get away from whatever they felt they were escaping, and heaven forbid allow anyone to come in and take it away from them.
I can't tell you how many people I've met here who speak of the " other states" as if theyr were in Siberia and full of snaggle-tooth hillbillies out to spend their every waking hour figuring out ways to trick and ensnare their kind. So when I see people around here throw up the NIMBY curtain, I see it as more of a defense mechanism these people put on to sort of protect themselves from a non-exsistent enemy.

I'm surprised that Bethesda made it onto the list more expensive nearby areas (Chevy Chase, Great Falls, and Potomac, MD did not).

Greenwich is very nice (at least in the summer when I visited). There's lots of really nice houses, proximity to sailing and fairly decent weather, good schools, and not too far from NYC. Bethesda is close to DC and NIH, so there's lots of doctors, lawyers, lobbyists, and senior civil servants in the neighborhood. It's been upper middle class for a very long time so the housing stock is middle class and not working class. I don't think the housing stock is all that nice though, most of the really big houses are in Great Falls and Potomac, and Chevy Chase, MD almost certainly beats Bethesda on prestige and on a cost by square footage basis.

I do remember when california was golden. Now it is the catalyst for social stratification. It will be remembered as the state that killed the middle class lifestyle. And the state that started illegal immigration migration. I was shocked to see illegals here in the deep south a fair amount at that. Soe things you can't escape even if you move clear across the country.