patrick.net

About the topic of this thread: the book "Who Rules America" by Domhoff points out that the only reason we have unemployment insurance, social security, Medicare, etc, is that they are the minimum necessary to prevent violent revolution. Most workers know that the free market exists in America only as long as the very rich are winning. As soon as the rich start losing, they instantly revert to the most anti-free market policies imaginable, such as the massive transfers of money from taxpayers to foolish banks, or the Federal Reserve printing money to buy the failed mortgages from the banks. Workers don't object too much as long as they can eat and get some minimum health care. And because they're not quite sure that the "world is ending" excuse is bullshit. But it is bullshit.

Ironically, what social policies we do have for workers are intended only to protect the people in power.

I'm going to call a bit of BS on that book. Rich people are getting richer just by virtue that they're saving. The really rich are working on conserving wealth, less on generating new wealth. E.G. saudi princes. Their goal is to maintain, less about creating new wealth. Trying finding places to invest billions upon billions? Look at the chinese, they're buying up US debt because it's something that is considered simple and safe. If they could get a 20% return on all that money by investing in other entities, they probably would. But it's harder than it looks to find a place to put 1T dollars.

The really rich simply couldn't coordinate something like this and make it happen. Things get out. They always get out. There might be a few back room conversations where people discuss this, but the concepts and how to perform these acts are fairly complex. Who here could create actual experiments, and look through statistical data and actual evidence, not a google search! and finally create a real report that could be easily convey to a rich person, that would then understand it well enough to pass it along to his buddies to push through?

I'm betting it happens for many of these reasons, but not from the top down. Things get bad and they try and help fix them. Their agenda isn't to screw people, it's to become bigger and better themselves.

I talked with a guy who met with bill gates and steve balmer. This groupdidn't like windows and these guys were all over them to figure out why, and how to make it better. This wasn't in 1990's but early 2000's when windows was/is essentially the only game in town. These guys are at the top, worth billions, have god knows how many employees and they were just so passionate with this group of people.

On top of this line of thought, is a quote I once saw that said the first generation of rich people make it, the second tries to maintain it, the 3rd pilfers it. Which I think holds true in many cases. The first generation works their asses off. The second follows their parents, but wishes they could have done something else, and thus let their children run a bit wild, doing whatever they want. Become artists, wrtiers, or whatever they want.

There just aren't that many people "working" at a super weathly level where pushing down the general public would benefit them.

If a person wants to become SUPER wealthy, without much money, go to a 3rd world country. You'll become an instant king with limited cash! Why not do it? Well who wants to live in a country with !@#$ around them. People dying on the streets, garbage everywhere? They want to live in utopia. The only way to get utopia, is to push everyone else up. What is the best way to make things even better for you? Make them better for everyone else, that will push up your standard of living as well.

Even bill gates has to walk past street beggers once in awhile. Or gets passed on the street by a belching diesel bus. What if the beggars weren't there, or smelled better? What if the buses were cleaner? It would make THEIR life better. They can already buy anything they want in life, the only things they can't buy are things that indirect effect them, like belching diesel busses. That is something they can make "better".

Overall, I don't believe in large conspiracies. Who has been in large company where all the top people were on the same back stabbing page? Backstabbers are always looking out for their own being, which in turns means that these groups can't get that large or complex. Once they do, backstabbers backstab each other. Good wins because good can trust and work together with large numbers of people. Evil wins hands down, when they can manage everything themselves. When they need to expand and get assistance/team up with someone else, they just can't do it. Evil collapses as it grows. Someone "good" gets in there, and ruins it, or someone feels they can do better on their own and backstabs everyone else. Evil can't get that large. Large conspiracies usually require lots of evil intentions.

As soon as the rich start losing, they instantly revert to the most anti-free market policies imaginable

Or in more specific examples, they threaten to take their wealth and factories and leave the country. It's a frequent thread on some stock forums I hang out on, that raising taxes on the wealthy class back to what they USED to be, and they will simply leave the USA without a backward glance. Proof enough for me that love of country and community is not something they possess. The first and last thing they dream of is ever larger wealth, and everything else is just a guise they adopt if needed to get what they want.

George Carlin had it right.

Wow! Troy, do you believe this as well? Constitution is a “dead letter” - essentially irrelevant?

Is there any readily perceptible evidence to the contrary?

Among other technicalities like voting ages, etc., our Constitution sets forth the limit of the governments power over the individual. In essence, it remains a pretty great boilerplate document, but after the last administration ran roughshod all over it, treating it more as a quaint remnant to be parsed and misinterpreted for their agendas, the life went right out of the thing.

If the actual document reflected the esteem it has within our government, it would have a coffee ring and a cigarette burn or two. Maybe a pizza delivery number written on the back.

Back to Jim Bunning, Daily Show has some commentary:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-march-2-2010/jim-bunning-is-just-a-dick