patrick.net

I love anti-government types. When I see all of them with signs picketing to close all military installations and shut down the VA hospitals and end MediCare/MedicAid, then I’ll think they are serious about their allegedly total belief that all government functions should be strangled in the tub.

You live in a bubble. You cannot refute the positions of your opponents when you argue against something that is not their position. Who has this alleged "total belief" that "ALL" government functions should be ended? Other than perhaps individualist anarchists, how about... NO ONE???? If you are attempting to argue against conservatives in this fashion, you are arguing from a completely false premise.

Are you a communist? Do you believe that the central government should run ALL functions of society? YES or NO?

No, libertarians just want to keep those gov services that benefit them directly.

"YES or NO"... its all so black and white, isn't it? its all that simple...

Paralithodes says

And yet you are convinced that the government can increase people covered, increase service, and decrease cost - even though it cannot do that now in its own government-run programs

Actually, it does. Medicare admin costs amount to about 7 percent of its budget while the private insurance companies spend about 25 percent. So that would mean that the gov run system is about 3 times as efficient as private insurers.

- all while not putting a dollar value on everything? They can decrease costs while in theory there will be no price limit because bureaucrats and actuaries will not be involved in policy decisions?

This garble needs more of an explanation, please.

kentm says

No, libertarians just want to keep those gov services that benefit them directly.
“YES or NO”… its all so black and white, isn’t it? its all that simple…

I don't know, maybe... Vincente seems to have defined conservativism, albeit incorrectly, in quite black and white terms. Don't you agree? YES or NO?

"Actually, it does. Medicare admin costs amount to about 7 percent of its budget while the private insurance companies spend about 25 percent. So that would mean that the gov run system is about 3 times as efficient as private insurers."

And taxes collected to pay Medicare cover medicare expenditures?

Paralithodes says

I see most people as opposed to SOCIALIST HEALTHCARE are directly or indirectly invoking old Soviet imagery of people waiting in line for toilet paper.”

As an aside, in response to this, if I have to wait in line for toilet paper I'd rather it be because of a real shortage instead of because some private company decided it was more profitable to keep it from me. just a thought.

"This garble needs more of an explanation, please."
The unstated premise, in Vicente's rant about insurance companies putting things in dollar terms, is that the government would not - otherwise why would he mention dollar terms at all? To think that the goverment would not - all while talking about how this could decrease costs - is ridiculous. "Death panels" is of course hysterical hyperbole, but to think that there will be some open-ended spigot to pay for every medical cost - while reducing costs, is funny. Of course the government will put people in dollar terms! And certainly it must! It does now, why would anything with that change?

Paralithodes says

And taxes collected to pay Medicare cover medicare expenditures?

What does that have to do with anything?

Immediate shutdown of VA hospitals, MedicAid, MediCare, any form of medical aid by Federal government to citizens or foreigners.

Yes or no?

I see most people as opposed to SOCIALIST HEALTHCARE are directly or indirectly invoking old Soviet imagery of people waiting in line for toilet paper.”

As an aside, in response to this, if I have to wait in line for toilet paper I’d rather it be because of a real shortage instead of because some private company decided it was more profitable to keep it from me. just a thought.

The statement was incorrectly attributed to me - I think because I copied/pasted incorrectly somewhere.

In any case, if some private company decided it was more profitable to keep it from you, why wouldn't some other company just come in and undercut the price and take all the business?

Vicente says

Immediate shutdown of VA hospitals, MedicAid, MediCare, any form of medical aid by Federal government to citizens or foreigners.
Yes or no?

Of course not...

Government control over every aspect of the economy? Yes or no?

kentm says

Paralithodes says

And taxes collected to pay Medicare cover medicare expenditures?

What does that have to do with anything?

Asking that question is a joke, right?

Paralithodes says

Of course not…

SOCIALIST!

Vicente says

Paralithodes says

Of course not…

SOCIALIST!

So then it is perfectly accurate and valid to label President Obama a Socialist as well? And all Democrats?

And why are you not answering the question? Third time: Total government control over all aspects of the economy? Yes or no?

Paralithodes says

he unstated premise, in Vicente’s rant about insu...

The idea is that a private health care system puts dollar value ABOVE humanity - as a private company they're designed with profit as the reason they exist, and so its actually in their interest to deny care because thats how they make money. More in, less out, and so the more they can deny service while raising fees, the better. Its simply how their entire structure is designed.

The idea of a gov run health care system is that its NOT run for profit, so they can better respond to and provide actual care to people because the bottom line is not the entire reason they exist.

Thats about as simple as it can be put, and this is the entire problem.

For all the libertarian screaming about individual rights and personal freedoms, you people don't actually seem all that interested in actual people and what honestly helps them, you just seem to be interested in your own little selfish needs, like children screaming "ME" all the time. When I see someone who calls themselves a 'libertarian' I see those seaguls from "Finding Nemo"... saying "mine", "mine", "mine", "mine", "mine" over and over.

I wish you'd just be honest about that instead of hiding your real aims all the time.

Paralithodes says

And why are you not answering the question? Third time: Total government control over all aspects of the economy? Yes or no?

Are you writing in response to me? If you are then:

Because its a stupid question.

I shouldn't have to say this, but do you want a police force, or an army, or a fire dept?...

Nearly every American citizen is a socialist. And yet we hurl this around as a negative label? If we have a person that is entirely self-centered and does only what pleases and advances them and nobody else, we give them labels like..... SOCIOPATH.

YOU are a SOCIALIST! Oh ick!

And yet, to drag this back to Ayn Rand and hardcore Libertarians, SOCIOPATHY IS PRECISELY WHAT THEY WORSHIP!

Of The Fountainhead's hero, Howard Roark: He "has learned long ago, with his first consciousness, two things which dominate his entire attitude toward life: his own superiority and the utter worthlessness of the world." (Journals of Ayn Rand, p. 93.)

Thats about as simple as it can be put, and this is the entire problem.

Black and white, eh?

It's certainly about as simplistic as it can be put. The government cannot claim that it will reduce health care costs, all while ignoring financial budgets and management by not being concerned with money, which is exactly what it must do to accomplish the former. In addition, the health insurance companies profit margins are very small: 2-4%.

"YOU are a SOCIALIST! Oh ick!"

So your argument boils down to this: There are two forms of government: Socialism and Anarchy (no government at all)?

For the fourth time, do you believe the government should control every aspect of the economy? Why will you not answer? I guess it is probably reasonable at this point - given your refusal to answer - to assume that your answer would be a "yes."

Also, do you know what a "strawman" is?

kentm says

Paralithodes says

And why are you not answering the question? Third time: Total government control over all aspects of the economy? Yes or no?

Are you writing in response to me? If you are then:
Because its a stupid question.
I shouldn’t have to say this, but do you want a police force, or an army, or a fire dept?…

So you also believe that if a conservative is against more Federal government expansion, he should be against all local, state, and Federal government functions?

You say that a question (which was a response to an absurd claim) is stupid, but then you essentially ask the same stupid question! Do you really argue that if someone wants a local fire department, then it is unreasonable for them to be against government control over the health care of the entire country?

"When I see someone who calls themselves a ‘libertarian’ I see those seaguls from “Finding Nemo”… saying “mine”, “mine”, “mine”, “mine”, “mine” over and over."

And when many libertarians and conservatives see someone who calls themselves a liberal, they see someone yelling: "We need to contribute more to society ... via the government ... with your money!" (Maybe that is why conservatives - at all income levels - are more likely to contribute to charity than liberals...)

Paralithodes says

And why are you not answering the question? Third time: Total government control over all aspects of the economy? Yes or no?

No, however THAT is not really an issue is it?

Practically speaking the bankers and the Federal Reserve already have control of the economy.

Vicente says

Paralithodes says

And why are you not answering the question? Third time: Total government control over all aspects of the economy? Yes or no?

No, however what we think doesn’t matter.
Practically speaking the bankers and the Federal Reserve already have control of the economy.

No? ANTI-SOCIALIST, CAPITALIST PIG!!!! See how easy it is?

As to your latter comments (after the "No") I agree.

Paralithodes says

Vicente says

Paralithodes says

And why are you not answering the question? Third time: Total government control over all aspects of the economy? Yes or no?

No, however what we think doesn’t matter.

Practically speaking the bankers and the Federal Reserve already have control of the economy.

No? ANTI-SOCIALIST, CAPITALIST PIG!!!! See how easy it is?
As to your latter comments (after the “No”) I agree.

And there it is. You see we are all on the same team, but the PtB want us fighting against one another rather than uniting in defense of ourselves.

It is not government (socialism) that is the problem nor big corporations. It is that Corporatism has hijacked government. Government is not accountable to J6P like it should be, instead it is accountable to Corporatism. The Federal Reserve is perhaps the biggest way government has been hijacked from accountability to the people.

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." -Thomas Jefferson

Paralithodes says

Right… The ‘if you are against *more* Federal government, you should be against ALL local, state, and Federal government or you are a hypocrite strawman argument…’ I take it the corollary is that you would be ok with complete government management of all of the economy?

The problem is that most people argue against government run health care because "government can't do anything right". Or the scariest phrase they've ever heard is "I'm from the government and I'm here to help". So, it's not really a strawman in that case, is it?

Paralithodes says

… And yet Obama directly and clearly admitted that certain amendments were inserted into the bill that “violated” (his words) some of the basic tenets of his stated approach… So, were some of the objections over the bill valid, or was Obama lying?

That's not an either/or question. There is an answer c to that...

Paralithodes says

And yet you are convinced that the government can increase people covered, increase service, and decrease cost - even though it cannot do that now in its own government-run programs - all while not putting a dollar value on everything? They can decrease costs while in theory there will be no price limit because bureaucrats and actuaries will not be involved in policy decisions?

Every other civilized nation in the world can do it. Is there some reason why we can't?

Paralithodes says

It’s certainly about as simplistic as it can be put. The government cannot claim that it will reduce health care costs, all while ignoring financial budgets and management by not being concerned with money, which is exactly what it must do to accomplish the former. In addition, the health insurance companies profit margins are very small: 2-4%.

Is that gross profit or net profit?

Net profit.

"I believe that Vicente is for some government controls, and for letting competition and the free market rule in other areas. His beliefs are totally consistent."

LOL!!! Isn't clear? Since I believe that there should be some government, as opposed to zero government, I'm a socialist, just like the rest of you in here.

If it's net--then I believe it. When you pay your top executives hundreds of millions in salary + bonus, then it tends to reduce your net profit... I'd say that there are some savings to be had there.

tatupu70 says

Paralithodes says

Right… The ‘if you are against *more* Federal government, you should be against ALL local, state, and Federal government or you are a hypocrite strawman argument…’ I take it the corollary is that you would be ok with complete government management of all of the economy?

The problem is that most people argue against government run health care because “government can’t do anything right”. Or the scariest phrase they’ve ever heard is “I’m from the government and I’m here to help”. So, it’s not really a strawman in that case, is it?

Of course it is a strawman, because a) Vicente's comments follow a definitive, black/white statement about ALL conservatives wanting to do away with ALL government functions, and b) because even here your statement is just simply untrue: You have both simplified and generalized certain things to the point where they do not reflect the position of your opposition.

tatupu70 says

If it’s net–then I believe it. When you pay your top executives hundreds of millions in salary + bonus, then it tends to reduce your net profit… I’d say that there are some savings to be had there.

What is the % of gross that specifically goes towards top executive pay? I don't know the numbers: I am only going to guess, but I would bet that if exec compensation were cut to what you would think was a reasonable level, it would add - at most - 1/2 to 1% to the net profit margin. But they certainly are an easy political target, aren't they?

tatupu70 says

Paralithodes says

And yet you are convinced that the government can increase people covered, increase service, and decrease cost - even though it cannot do that now in its own government-run programs - all while not putting a dollar value on everything? They can decrease costs while in theory there will be no price limit because bureaucrats and actuaries will not be involved in policy decisions?

Every other civilized nation in the world can do it. Is there some reason why we can’t?

And the current health care bill fixes it all?

Paralithodes says

What is the % of gross that specifically goes towards top executive pay? I don’t know the numbers: I am only going to guess, but I would bet that if exec compensation were cut to what you would think was a reasonable level, it would add - at most - 1/2 to 1% to the net profit margin. But they certainly are an easy political target, aren’t they?

And I'd say 1% is a pretty good savings.

Paralithodes says

tatupu70 says
Paralithodes says

And yet you are convinced that the government can increase people covered, increase service, and decrease cost - even though it cannot do that now in its own government-run programs - all while not putting a dollar value on everything? They can decrease costs while in theory there will be no price limit because bureaucrats and actuaries will not be involved in policy decisions?

Every other civilized nation in the world can do it. Is there some reason why we can’t?
And the current health care bill fixes it all?

Unfortunately not. The current health bill is not the answer. The scare tactics from the insurance companies and Republicans did their job and ended any chance for meaningful reform..

tatupu70 says

Paralithodes says

And yet you are convinced that the government can increase people covered, increase service, and decrease cost - even though it cannot do that now in its own government-run programs - all while not putting a dollar value on everything? They can decrease costs while in theory there will be no price limit because bureaucrats and actuaries will not be involved in policy decisions?

Every other civilized nation in the world can do it. Is there some reason why we can’t?

Yes. It's called the defense budget. There's no more money left.

tatupu70 says

Paralithodes says

What is the % of gross that specifically goes towards top executive pay? I don’t know the numbers: I am only going to guess, but I would bet that if exec compensation were cut to what you would think was a reasonable level, it would add - at most - 1/2 to 1% to the net profit margin. But they certainly are an easy political target, aren’t they?

And I’d say 1% is a pretty good savings.

Again, 1% is simply a guess, based on your assumption of hundreds of millions of dollars. And while a 1% savings might be good, sorry... I'm one of those people who does not believe that the government can do this in a "cost neutral" way and that it will save money over the current system. The profits are low. The insurance companies are a huge part of the problem, but not because of profits: If the government were to run a cost neutral program, we would hope they would have the equivalent of a similar margin - better than running at a deficit like the current government programs. The insurance companies are facilitators or enablers of many other dynamics which neither side has appeared to do anything to address.

theoakman says

tatupu70 says

Paralithodes says

And yet you are convinced that the government can increase people covered, increase service, and decrease cost - even though it cannot do that now in its own government-run programs - all while not putting a dollar value on everything? They can decrease costs while in theory there will be no price limit because bureaucrats and actuaries will not be involved in policy decisions?

Every other civilized nation in the world can do it. Is there some reason why we can’t?

Yes. It’s called the defense budget. There’s no more money left.

The defense budget is approximately 20% of our budget (probably less in future budgets either by cuts or growth in entitlements and debt interest). But your point is important: Very few of the other "1st world" countries spend nearly as much on defense ... because they know that WE are their ultimate defense. I guess one could consider it a re-distribution of wealth....

*snip* [wrong thread]