patrick.net

I don't get it. How is the Coinage Act defining a "constitutional" dollar any more than any other arbitrary definition? The coinage act wasn't a constitutional amendment, it was simply a federal law. The constitution says very little about money, other than empowering congress to print and regulate its value.

Yes, historically money was valued in terms of fixed weights of silver. What does that have to do with being "constitutional"?

I'll entertain the notion that the US will go back on a metal standard one day (after all, anything can happen after the Rapture). There's absolutely no reason to think that whatever definition is used will have any relation to any definition used in the past, or even that it will use a metal that has been used in the past.

Didn't we go over this already? A dollar is a unitless measurement of currency with only vague mention and no definition in the Constitution.

It was originally designed to be identical to the common solid global currency of the day, the Spanish dollar. Over time the dollar has been morphed into various forms as commercial requirements of being initially a continental and eventually hegemonic global trading power evolved.

As Kevin mentions above, contrary to your article, the Coinage Act of 1792 is not of "Constitutional" basis, it is/was law in keeping with the Congress' constitutional powers of regulating the nation's money.

This is a pretty major misunderstanding.

I swear wingnuts are the stupidest people on the planet. Our government should go on the Aluminum standard so you'd get some (perceived) direct utility out of our currency.

The 7th Ammendment and Article 1, Section 9, Clause 1 of the Constitution both refer to a "dollar." At that time no definition of a dollar was necessary because anyone who knew economics and trade knew that a dollar was a reference to the Spanish coin of a specified weight and purity of silver.

The fact that the dollar was recognized as a specific amount and purity of silver cannot be denied by any but the most self-deluded.

AdHominem says

The 7th Ammendment and Article 1, Section 9, Clause 1 of the Constitution both refer to a “dollar.” At that time no definition of a dollar was necessary because anyone who knew economics and trade knew that a dollar was a reference to the Spanish coin of a specified weight and purity of silver.

Ah, the 7th amendment (and article 1) was written before the coinage act, and in fact the term "dollar" as mentioned did refer to spanish dollars. It was a poor choice of words to put absurd values like "10 dollars" and "20 dollars" into the constitution, particularly since it doesn't say WHAT a dollar is, but that just proves that the constitution was written by flawed human beings and is a flawed document.

It still doesn't give a "constitutional" value for a dollar.

The fact that the dollar was recognized as an specific amount and purity of silver cannot be denied by any but the most self-deluded.

I don't think anyone is denying that the dollar *WAS* recognized as a specific amount of silver (in 1792)...

What we're saying is that this doesn't make it "constitutional".

The only thing that makes something constitutional (or unconstitutional) is being written in the constitution. Nowhere in the constitution does it say what the value of a dollar is, nor should it -- that was the job of congress. In 1792, Congress chose to make the value of a US dollar equal to that of a spanish dollar, because at the time it was the standard. This was a reasonable solution in 1792, but it isn't 1792 anymore.

If you want a great example of how horrible a constitution can be if you try to put every law into it, rather than using it as a basic framework for creating law, look at California.

For all the talk about the supposed harm caused by fiat currency, I still see a world around me that is, as a whole, vastly superior to any time in history that we didn't use fiat currency. All major economies use fiat currencies, and, recent troubles notwithstanding, things are OK.

You want to argue semantics rather than accept the facts.

Congress cannot change the meaning of the words in the constitution without making a mockery of the constitution, and you know this. For example, the constitution also talks about a "year" but does not stipulate that it is 365 days. So by your reasoning congress could determine (change) the meaning of the word year to mean 40 days and we could "constitutionally" elect a new president every 160 days. You have strayed into the realm of absurdity with your argument.

Anyone who fails to recognize that our country was founded on the understanding that a dollar was a specific amount and purity of silver is deluded.

AdHominem says

Anyone who fails to recognize that our country was founded on the understanding that a dollar was a specific amount and purity of silver is deluded.

Congress has the power to regulate it. I agree that the usage of "dollar" is vague and the power to "coin money" implies hard currency. But you're the one reading meaning into the Constitution that simply isn't there.

I understand that rich people and goldbugs want to handicap the Congress' power to debase our currency as they have over the past 100 years. Good luck with that.

I'll buy that for a dollar!

U.S. Dollar = Federal Reserve Note ... a promise to pay a promise backed by a promise.

Bubble Yum cost 25c back in the 1970s.

Now it costs 50c from amazon.

Oh noes teh inflation.

AdHominem says

You want to argue semantics rather than accept the facts.
Congress cannot change the meaning of the words in the constitution without making a mockery of the constitution, and you know this. For example, the constitution also talks about a “year” but does not stipulate that it is 365 days. So by your reasoning congress could determine (change) the meaning of the word year to mean 40 days and we could “constitutionally” elect a new president every 160 days. You have strayed into the realm of absurdity with your argument.
Anyone who fails to recognize that our country was founded on the understanding that a dollar was a specific amount and purity of silver is deluded.

Again, you still don't get it.

The constitution *does* give congress the power to assign value to a dollar, it does *NOT* specify what that value is. This was completely intentional. If the value of a "dollar" was some fundamental near constant (like the orbital period of the earth), then there would have been no need to give congress the power to regulate the value of currency.

No one is arguing the "value" of the dollar except you. This article is merely meant to educate the misinformed about what a dollar physically is. And what it physically is is a specific amount and purity of silver.

AdHominem says

And what it physically is is a specific amount and purity of silver.

Better talk to Honest Abe about that:

Honest Abe says

What has NO definition what-so-ever, anywhere, is what a dollar is. There is no statute, rule, law, or regulation that defines just exactly what a dollar is. That in itself is dishonest, wouldn’t you agree?

Troy says:
Bubble Yum cost 25c back in the 1970s. Now it costs 50c from amazon. Oh noes teh inflation.

LOL. i can haz BUBBL YUM?!?

Kevin nailed it. Had there been a constant definition in the Constitution, there would have been no need for a subsequent coinage act. And since that Act was merely legislative and not a constitutional amendment, any subsequent currency acts have identical validity to the 1792 law.

I don't know if they make silver foil. Howfore thence to make mine tricorn hat? ;o

AdHominem says

No one is arguing the “value” of the dollar except you. This article is merely meant to educate the misinformed about what a dollar physically is. And what it physically is is a specific amount and purity of silver.

The constitution certainly doesn't define any physical form of a dollar either. If congress decided that "a dollar" was "one banana peel", then that's what a dollar would be. The first official definition of a dollar came from the coinage act, but subsequent coinage acts and other laws changed the definition. This is within congress rights (and, as much as we might disagree with it, it was within their rights to create the fed to delegate that power to).

Why do you hate the constitution?

Kevin says

f congress decided that “a dollar” was “one banana peel”, then that’s what a dollar would be.

Why must you mangle and change the meaning of words in order to support your twisted ideas?

By your account congress can decide that a year is 40 days and that a dog is a person/citizen eligible to vote (if they are 18 years of age, which means of course 720 days old since a year is now 40 days).

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

No one is arguing the “value” of the dollar except you. This article is merely meant to educate the misinformed about what a dollar physically is. And what it physically is is a specific amount and purity of silver.

Incorrect. That is what you wish it was. A dollar is simply an medium to allow for the convenient exchange of goods and services. Silver has no bearing on the exchange of goods and services.

Wrong again. A dollar is a dollar. Orwellian style government may try to change the meaning of words but that doesn't change what the meaning of IS is.

A dollar was a piece of silver of a certain quantity and purity. And a dollar IS a piece of silver of that same certain quantity and purity.

Congress can no more change that than they can change what how many feet in a yard.

The Dollar (specific amount and purity of silver) is just a yardstick. Congress has no authority to change the yardstick.

Its authority to regulate the value of the dollar was with respect to how the dollar could be exchanged for other currencies (foreign and domestic). For example the congress does have the authority to set the exchange rate between gold and silver or between coins from our country and coins of another country.

You would have to be a fool to think that our constitution gives congress the authority to change the yardstick let alone to argue that changing the yardstick is a good thing.

AdHominem says

The Dollar (specific amount and purity of silver) is just a yardstick. Congress has no authority to change the yardstick.

you're literally insane, beyond reach of fact or reason. This will be my last post to patrick.net. Thanks all.

Troy, thanks for your input, we'll miss you, but please, PLEASE take Elliemae with you.

P.S. perhaps AdHominem was trying to point out that the dollar had a specific definition in the past. It was defined as a certain weight of gold or silver. Today the dollar has NO definition. That in itself is dishonest. Inagine if each gas station dispensed a certain number of gallons of gas for a specific price BUT each sation had its own defination of what a "gallon" was??? In the absence of a standard for weights and measures there is chaos...and dishonesty.

There is no law or statute anywhere in America that describes what a dollar is. Maybe that's what the original question was..."What is a dollar"?