patrick.net

@alien and astrid,

A couple of years ago, before this & Ben's blogs got started and before I had a clear picture of the bubble, I was researching alternative construction incl. straw-bale. I figured going green and DIY might help offset the exorbitant cost of housing in CA (at the time I did not fully understand the roles of speculation, loose credit & NIMBY on prices here.)

Anyway, I ended up joining CASBA (http://www.strawbuilding.org/) and even went to their Ojai retreat in '04. I even volunteered a couple of weekends to work on a SB house in San Diego that belonged to a CASBA member, just to see what it took. Alien's not kidding --it takes a LOT of time and effort (sweat equity, as they call it). Oh, and by the time you're done paying for the CA (bubble inflated) land, paying the city/counties permits & "just because we can" review fees, plus running utilities/sewer line extensions, etc. you generally don't save all that much money.

I think it may still be worth it if you're a real pro-green, handy-man DIYer with lots of contractor friends, but it's not for novices or faint of heart. You will also get a very energy efficient house with unbeatable insulation properties vs "stick-built" conventional homes. Just don't expect it to be cheap --not in CA anyway.

What I'd really like to see is SB/green construction (which heavily use locally produced agricultural waste products vs, imported lumber & high embodied energy materials) go mainstream. It would be nice to see KB, Toll & Lennar offering SB, cordwood & cobb houses that use passive or low energy cooling/heating systems. You can also replace a lot of the sheetrock and plywood on the interior with natural fiberboard (straw, wheat, hemp, etc.).

Someday maybe...

Steel-reinforced concrete. :)

HARM,

I have no illusions about building cheap in CA. My taste runs quite modern, so adobe or strawbale or log won't work for me. If I DIY in CA, it'll be prefab modern. What I'd really like would be a well constructed co-op/condo/townhouse in a good location with a modernist interior + an urban garden plot of reasonable fertility and bylaws + some kind of amazing piece of land that I can retire to.

I know one thing I really don't want in a house - a McMansion model home look - that kind of veneer wood blandness creeps me out.

Bad, Peter P, BAAAD!! Those are environmentally destructive, high-embodied NRG products.

You must flog yourself with seaweed & loofah until such notions escape your mind. Then you should obtain an aural cleansing & herbal colonic from your local wiccan. Also, don't forget to cleanse your mind/spirit with various "medicinal" psychotropic herbs.

"Kum Bay Yah, My Lord, Kum Bay Yah..."

What about converted shipping containers? They're probably safer than steel reinforced concrete.

HARM,

I fear that nagging does not work for Peter P. You might try the argument about the bad karma associated with concrete.

There is bad karma associated with concrete? 8-O

SFWoman,

I just saw your comment about your son's climbing lessons. That sounds so fun. Maybe you could take him canyoneering next year.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/zion/pine.htm

"There is bad karma associated with concrete? "

See what I mean : -)

Peter P Says:

> Can you teach me how to wash a cat
> without getting scratched?

Then SFWoman Says:

No

You need a shower tub combo with glass doors (a mad wet cat will tear right through a shower curtain) and one of those "shower massage" things
http://www.waterpik.com/showerheads/

Throw the cat in to the tub and close the glass door. Stand on the toilet lean over the top of the shower doors and blast the cat with liquid soap. Wash the soap out with the shower massage thing set to "turbo blast" as the cat runs around the tub trying to get away from the water.

P.S. Since I don't have a cat I don't need a shower tub combo and some day want to have a big bathroom with a separate shower and tub separated from the master bedroom by a fireplace that opens in to both the bathroom and the bedroom...

These used to be ex-SGI buildings, so I guess it was their idea of fun.

But they are G????? buildings now, right?

Peter P Says:

> Since women hate urinals, we need his-and-her
> baths or at least his-and-her water closet.

A proper garage/workshop bathroom will always have a urinal...

Aha... knew I saw it before!

Astrid: Wired did an article some time back about how the new tunneling technology from the Big Dig and other projects would make underground development much more affordable. Link: http://wired.com/wired/archive/11.04/suburb.html?pg=1&topic=&topic_set=

SFWoman:
I've recently gone to Berkeley Ironworks, it's the same company/coop as Mission Rocks. I think it's a much better way to stay in shape than the standard gym machines, but that's just my opinion.

requiem,

Eeeeeexcelllllleeeent!

Well, you guys got a good deal on the lease, no? Did they throw in some Herman Miller chairs too?

this is an opal mining town where 80% (?) of people live underground, by one report. Outside temperatures during the day reach 135, but inside it is naturally 75 without cooling:

Coober Pedy

there is also an abandoned spaceship there, and one guy who struck it rich opal mining has a 17 room excavated house with a swimming pool, lands his light plane on the roof, and has reused a disused mine shaft to mount a spiral staircase...

abandoned spaceship

I saw the pictures. Wow.

the spaceship would really work if it hadn't fall into disrepair. ;)

the spaceship would really work if it hadn’t fall into disrepair

I know. It needs the right crystal to power up though. I suspect opal can be made into some kind of fuel.

alien Says:
Concrete is DEFINITELY bad karma - check the carbon cycle figures out...

bring back wattle and daub!

Not much use for spaceships though.

how did you get here then?

Cabbage patch...

alright... alright... a hobbit house then! they're not making any more hillocks...
Hobbit house

today's tip: how to wash a cat

1. get an old pillow slip, aka pillow case*, and an old pyjama cord drawstring
2. get someone who can sew to stitch the drawstring into the opening of the pillow case so it will tighten
3. run the bath and get it all set up
4. get the cat, and put 'the cat in the bag', with its head outside of the bag, and gently do up the drawstring -- the cat will think it's a game up to this point
5. pick up cat in bag and put it into the bath of warm soapy(?) water -- or maybe some sort of benign shampoo -- the pillow case will get wet and stop the cat from flailing around and scratching. they tend to just sit there and take it, as they aren't being irritated by being directly wetted -- cats don't like being sprayed or rained on as the sensation makes them jumpy
6. i suppose you could rinse the cat in the bag with non-soapy water here
7. take the bound cat out of the bath and release it gingerly with the drawstring
8. try to dry it a bit with a towel if it will let you. they usually act surprised more than anything at this stage

* it could be useful to try some sort of fairly open weave permeable material here as a substitute - teatowels have been used sewn into a bag...

Note 1: i don't know if they learn to fear the bag or the bath tub if you do this a lot -- they usually keep themselves fairly clean by themselves...

Note 2: cats look a lot smaller when they are wet...

On a different note:

Fears of revenge attacks on stingrays over Irwin death

At least ten stingrays have been found dead and mutilated on Australia’s eastern coast in the last week in what conservationists believe could be revenge attacks for the death of Steve Irwin, the popular naturalist and television personality.

Irwin, known by his fans as the "Crocodile Hunter", was killed last Monday when a stingray barb pierced his chest as he filmed a new TV programme off the Great Barrier Reef. His death triggered an outpouring of grief in Australia and among thousands of admirers worldwide.
_____

I think Steve Irwin would not have wanted revenge on the critters. It's not the Croc Hunter way.

Lots of interesting ideas. I'd never actually heard of cordwood masonry. Seems to me it's one of those designs you would never get tired of looking at and would be great for 2nd home or even primary res.

For any of us that's ever been a kid straw bales just looks like fun! However, other than over the internet I've never seen one built and would prefer to get some of HARM's first hand experience before attempting?

While I doubt I would ever live in one I just can't see why more "Ag" buildings aren't built out of junk tires? Dry storage for tractors? Would livestock really mind?

One thing is for sure. As todays unsellable subdivisions become tomorrows ghost towns we will have committed a terrible, wasteful fraud. Quite possibly the biggest misallocation of resources in our history. I mean on the scale of wiping out buffalo herds. With all of the sensible alternatives out there we chose the McMansion route?

newsfreak,

I'm sure the response we'll get from the REIC is that they were only providing what the buying public wanted, namely BIG! Oh and just so I don't strike a raw nerve with Randy H, when I say "ghost towns" I suppose what I really mean is "grossly under utilized". Even in LV and Phoenix I'm sure that from 1/2 to 2/3rds will be occupied by one or more "rotational" people the unused portions of these behemoths and the energy used to keep them livable will constitute a terrible waste.

George,

Well exactly. How could we possibly have had an unprecedented boom marketing......... sensible? Never gonna happen. You mean with all of this cheap money we're gonna build........sensible?

A 1% overnight lending rate means every Joe Schmuckiteli in the country will be able to afford AT LEAST 2,000 sq. ft! (For awhile anyway).

This was a once in a lifetime window for the REIC and there was just no way they weren't going to beat on it for all it was worth!

I wish more apartments put washer/dryer in the bathroom. They always put them in the kitchen, which sucks due to noisy and heat. If they went in the bathroom, the noise would be dramatically reduced and the heat could be vented out.

astrid,

Makes sense. Properly vented (to avoid an accumulation of moisture) there's no good reason that shouldn't work.

One other thing about the boom building techniques I can't understand is with all of the building throughout the southwest why was no provision made for a "water catchment system"? What water run-off they do get from their roofs could have been captured, stored and used for everything from your garden to your toilet!

If there's plenty of money to go around for granite counter tops I'm sure we could swing a few plastic barrels and a filter.

DinOR,

It seems like builders just cut corners on anything that can't be seen. They're building 3000 sqft homes with cardboard, for gawd sakes. That's lower construction quality than shacks sold at HD. It's all about creating a facade to lure in the buyers - bricks in the front and a couple thousand dollars of cabinets & countertops and suddenly it's worth $750K or whatever they're charging for the place.

"It's all about creating a facade"

Well that about sums the whole bubble doesn't it?

The faux slate or "river rock" must be a real hoot for the builders! They know full well it goes up in a day and adds a ton of "street appeal" so they can charge major bucks for that!

I can't help but wonder what it will look like in a few years when a few fall out and the whole thing starts to sag.

George,

One of my all time favorite "ghost town" photos is where a mining town that folded years ago has only a bank vault to show that people at one time existed there! It's concrete with a great iron door swung open. And there it sits on a pile of rubble surrounded by sky and dirt.

What will FL's ghost towns look like? Is this where the jungle reclaims the land and "gators" roam freely in what once was a subdivision? From what you describe, whatever it's going to look like, I think we're about to find out.

House # 1 is listed at $244,900.
House # 2 is listed at $195,000.

4-bedroom, 2-bath, 3-car garage, 2,600 sq foot monsters.

wow, unheard of over here... who said florida was booming? i have to spend $260K just to get a 1 br apartment, and that's down from $350K last year...

SFWoman,

Meanwhile, there's a lot of cool stuff (accessible even to non climbers) to whet his appetite

http://www.zionnational-park.com/

The "Wave"
The Zion Narrows
The "Subway"
Calf Creek (with some reservations - the hike in and out is long, hot, and have soft footing)
Hickman Bridge in Capitol Reef

and

Willis Creek (so easy even horse and astrid can walk it)

Also, Angel's Landing in Zion, that's a nice compromise between hiking and climbing. Not too hard half day hike (since I hiked it, but I did grab onto the chains for dear life in places). Much easier and more fun on way down (since you can see where you're going).

Buckskin Gulch and Bull Valley Gorge are also good long semi technical hikes. They would be doable for the non-technical people if you have a guide who can help you through the rough spots.

George,

Yeah, but what's the hurricane insurance and cooling bill on one of those things? Are there many jobs there that pays $50-75K a year?

Different Sean on Coober Pedy:

I've always wanted to go there!

Opals, despite their bad reputation, have always been my favourite gems

In fact, my wedding ring has a light opal in it, from Coober Pedy.....

astrid Says:

Also, Angel’s Landing in Zion, that’s a nice compromise between hiking and climbing.

That is an awesome hike. Amazing views from the top, and the climbing rungs definitely make it easier.

George,

By all means please do! I'd love to track that. I mean at this point, what can we do but laugh?

The monthly expenses have got to be unbearable for these novice investors! Talk about "leave the meter running"? While vacant do specuvestors just set the thermostat at like 80/85 degrees so they don't boil the paint off the walls? Or do they just let them bake?